I couldn't agree more.Michal_R said:
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Gender on the Nexus
- Thread starter Mr.Peabody
- Start date
I don't know, i think "society" as a construct is overrated. It is virtual in nature, it isn't real. I don't deal with societies, i deal with people.
I'm also all for gender inequalities, all kinds of inequalities really. It's just a fact that not everyone is suited for every job and that's ok. Finding ways on how to value differences, different perspectives, different skills etc is higher on my priority list.
hug46
Rising Star
obliguhl said:
I don"t think you have any choice but to deal with society, as individual people are products of their environments/society.
obliguhl said:
Are you sure that you do not mean that you are all for diversity, rather than inequality? I think that valuing one individual over another (even when based on abilities) can be personally disempowering and helps to maintain the status quo.
Thymamai, I'm still waiting for you to elaborate on what you didn't understand from my earlier post.
As has been pointed out, inequalities are markedly different from diversities or pluralities. Inequality is inherently steeped in oppression. Advocating for oppression strikes me as pretty terrible, imo.
For those that believe they can think their way out of societal constructs, to give a drastic example so as to illuminate, imagine yourself as a slave in the antebellum south. You just can't ignore/imagine your way out of the social inequalities that have tangible effects on your life. That's not how it works.
As has been pointed out, inequalities are markedly different from diversities or pluralities. Inequality is inherently steeped in oppression. Advocating for oppression strikes me as pretty terrible, imo.
For those that believe they can think their way out of societal constructs, to give a drastic example so as to illuminate, imagine yourself as a slave in the antebellum south. You just can't ignore/imagine your way out of the social inequalities that have tangible effects on your life. That's not how it works.
Michal_R
Rising Star
obliguhl said:
Difference is not inequality.
Inequality starts when a difference (natural or cultural) becomes a source for creating distance between people. I´ll give you an example. Generally, there are some differences between men and women, such as average height etc). But the fact that on average men get higher sallary than women at the same position is not a difference but inequality based on discrimination.
Another example: "objective" differences between races do not justify, or explain, (economic) inequalities between them. The same applies to sex/gender.
I wish to live in a world where people are respected for their differences (diversity) rather than made unequal because of them...
Are we trying to say the 'maleness' of nexus is turning women off? Nexus comes off as very neutral to me. As I understand it though, there do seem to be less female members, but almost everything I enjoy has less females, I suspect that's because of the expectations we have of them. I really hate it when people talk in terms of 'masculine' and 'feminine'. Besides genital issues these seem like really flaky manufactured terms to categorize and make exclusive different types of behaviour. This further divides two things that are almost completely the same in my eyes.
Are we talking about Sex or Gender here?
Because i can see how women get paid less in general because they carry a higher risk: Pregnancy. Gender roles also dictate, that men have to work hard to reaffirm their gender identity - i would think that this is attractive to employers. Also, most jobs where salary gaps are really noticable are possibly better suited to men (as in gender male)...for example, competitive management environments. There are not many stereotypical women in manangement positions for a reason. For the same reason why they aren't many women working in construction.
People with some personality traits are just better suited for some work.
In capitalism, i can't see how you can force the same pay for two people with different skill levels. Not saying that every woman is bad in construction per se ... but probably on average. Same goes for "achiever jobs".
I respect those who want to pursue untypical jobs for their gender...if its your dream, why no try?
I'd rather start re-evaluating the way we think about certain jobs and how much they should pay. In Germany, the government wanted to pay women to stay at home. They could not go through with this because of..well, feminists. I think that is totally misguided to destroy this obvious attempt at empowering women who want to live the classic role model. If you want to raise kids, get pregnant, why not get a guaranteed salary for that and be independant from you partner? In the end it was seen as an incentive for women to stay at home ...
I value people who are true to themselves and their skillset. I could try to be a boxing champ because its veeeery manly. But in the end, i'm neither athletic nor have the determination to be the second coming of mike tyson. Yeah, whateve...
People attach too much to the thought of ongoing discrimination based on gender. They forget that a lot of the ongoing discrimination is because of the different valuation of skillsets: Some of which are interwoven with gender identities.
hug46
Rising Star
obliguhl said:
The same thing could be said for women who are trying to affirm their gender identity.
obliguhl said:
The main reason is sexism. It has nothing to do with the need for the physical bulk that is associated with working in construction.
Margeret Thatcher is a very good example of how far you can go in transcending gender politics and i bet she would also have been pretty handy on a construction site.
Yeah...We could've used her Heart to hammer up drywall.hug46 said:
I was talking about classic gender roles in EU/US influenced countries. That means: A woman defines herself mostly through physical beauty and her capability of giving emotional support, and a man has to work hard, be strong, be dominant etc.... One could argue, that a manly attitude helps more in getting things done in competitive business environment. Sure, that's not all there is, but that's where the money is and salary gaps are the highest. I don't think that's sexism...it's genderism if anything.
With construction jobs it is sexism, but justified sexism.
Not saying that i necessarly subscribe to these gender roles. I'm more for cultural relativism and believe that the value lies in discovering what makes each and every contribution valuable.
Also, i would argue that Thatcher was more a man than a woman (as in GENDER not Sex).
hug46
Rising Star
obliguhl said:
I am sorry maybe i explained myself badly. I think that females that choose to go into carreers such as competitive management should be paid the same, in that they are more likely to go the extra mile in order to affirm their abilities in what is seen as a male dominated environment. I do not understand why they should be paid less for doing the same job because they carry a risk of becoming pregnant.
Obli that is a matter of opinion, and it is very tempting to go into an epic thread derailing post on the physical, biological and mental characteristics of Margeret Thatcher!
Thank you Snozzleberry for being you. You and my husband are the only two men I have met of your ilk in my ENTIRE lifetime. You are this kind of man:
You know it's wrong and oppressive to use sexist or racist language and you actively fight against culture rather than using it as an excuse or saying you cannot help yourselves because that is all you know. Snozzzleberry and Nemo Amicus are the only men I've met who not only refuse to use this language in the presence of minorities or women, but they also refuse to use it in private and when surrounded by folks who are just like them. They never every have to fall back on something as ultra-lame as, "Well if I had known you were a woman (or African American or w/e) then I wouldn't have spoken like that." :thumb_dow
Here is why I have given up on being active here, why I am ignoring all the mail in my inbox: Same Stuff, Different Day.
Personally I do not understand how one can reconcile the psychedelic experience with a sexist or racist attitude. Yet it happens so much I'm ready to give up not only on this community and society in general, but even psychedelics.
1.) I don't like being told by those in charge that every single time I suggest a change or get concerned about something here that it's just my latest "breakdown." Or that when other people who are male act in a similar way it's just their thing, who they are or they are working for the best of the Nexus. Of course I want nothing but the worst here when I request change or complain about something.
2.) I am clearly deeply disliked by the almost all the Moderators here. Clearly, as far as you folks seem to be concerned I am not capable of change or growth. So be it.
3.) I am offended by double standards. Mods attacking me in chat and using profanity and the moment I turn the tables I am kicked. Fine. I'm outta here.
4.) Whenever something goes wrong in life or a relationship, it seems a woman is at fault or to be blamed. And guys don't hesitate to let us know, especially in chat, which is where I used to spend my time here.
5.) Members in chat actually saying all 17 year old females are just "slutty girls." Excuse me? I'm so glad you didn't say that to my face. My niece is that age.
6.) Moderator in chat claiming he has nothing but respect for me. Then two minutes later addressing me as "girl." I'm on the downside/second half of my life and have been to Hell and back so many times it's not even funny. I haven't been a "girl" since half of my family burned to death in the 1980's, okay?
7.) Senior Members in chat having an extensive and open discussion on regional pronunciations of the word "cunt." How lame is this when we have a language with over 100,000 words?
8.) Folks here addressing fully grown women as children or animals. I DO NOT CARE if that's what everyone does or that's how the "girls" or "chicks" you know speak. Culture is NOT our friend, remember? Why embrace it? I'm not a girl. Nor am I a chick, a dog, a bitch, a whale, a fox, a yak, etc.
Anyways guys I wish you peace but I'm taking a major break to hang out in the real world and catch up on reading. At least when I am home and when I read sci-fi, I can escape from this reality. I'm so very tired of it all, you cannot imagine. LOL at Caucasian guys in their 20's saying they are sick and tired of it all. You don't have any idea friends, really.
Oh, and by the way, given the proper education and training and positive, active, can-do attitudes, anyone can and will want to do jobs like construction, management or politics. The only thing I don't want women doing is combat. I also don't want men doing it, just for the record. And given my experience with power tools, grow room construction and helping work on Gracie & Zarkov's house, I sincerely suspect I could do better construction that most of you guys. Power tools, levers and a good knowledge base as well as a willingness to learn how to use new machines, makes me as strong as any man doing that kind of work.
I don't have any fight left in me and no energy behind complaints. It's really hard to even care or feel any passion about all this SSDD stuff, but I thought I'd just make a post to say what's up on my end with these issues.
Thanks for taking the time to read. If you want a more technical explanation of my issues see Snozzleberry's posts.
You know it's wrong and oppressive to use sexist or racist language and you actively fight against culture rather than using it as an excuse or saying you cannot help yourselves because that is all you know. Snozzzleberry and Nemo Amicus are the only men I've met who not only refuse to use this language in the presence of minorities or women, but they also refuse to use it in private and when surrounded by folks who are just like them. They never every have to fall back on something as ultra-lame as, "Well if I had known you were a woman (or African American or w/e) then I wouldn't have spoken like that." :thumb_dow
Here is why I have given up on being active here, why I am ignoring all the mail in my inbox: Same Stuff, Different Day.
Personally I do not understand how one can reconcile the psychedelic experience with a sexist or racist attitude. Yet it happens so much I'm ready to give up not only on this community and society in general, but even psychedelics.
1.) I don't like being told by those in charge that every single time I suggest a change or get concerned about something here that it's just my latest "breakdown." Or that when other people who are male act in a similar way it's just their thing, who they are or they are working for the best of the Nexus. Of course I want nothing but the worst here when I request change or complain about something.
2.) I am clearly deeply disliked by the almost all the Moderators here. Clearly, as far as you folks seem to be concerned I am not capable of change or growth. So be it.
3.) I am offended by double standards. Mods attacking me in chat and using profanity and the moment I turn the tables I am kicked. Fine. I'm outta here.
4.) Whenever something goes wrong in life or a relationship, it seems a woman is at fault or to be blamed. And guys don't hesitate to let us know, especially in chat, which is where I used to spend my time here.
5.) Members in chat actually saying all 17 year old females are just "slutty girls." Excuse me? I'm so glad you didn't say that to my face. My niece is that age.
6.) Moderator in chat claiming he has nothing but respect for me. Then two minutes later addressing me as "girl." I'm on the downside/second half of my life and have been to Hell and back so many times it's not even funny. I haven't been a "girl" since half of my family burned to death in the 1980's, okay?
7.) Senior Members in chat having an extensive and open discussion on regional pronunciations of the word "cunt." How lame is this when we have a language with over 100,000 words?
8.) Folks here addressing fully grown women as children or animals. I DO NOT CARE if that's what everyone does or that's how the "girls" or "chicks" you know speak. Culture is NOT our friend, remember? Why embrace it? I'm not a girl. Nor am I a chick, a dog, a bitch, a whale, a fox, a yak, etc.
Anyways guys I wish you peace but I'm taking a major break to hang out in the real world and catch up on reading. At least when I am home and when I read sci-fi, I can escape from this reality. I'm so very tired of it all, you cannot imagine. LOL at Caucasian guys in their 20's saying they are sick and tired of it all. You don't have any idea friends, really.
Oh, and by the way, given the proper education and training and positive, active, can-do attitudes, anyone can and will want to do jobs like construction, management or politics. The only thing I don't want women doing is combat. I also don't want men doing it, just for the record. And given my experience with power tools, grow room construction and helping work on Gracie & Zarkov's house, I sincerely suspect I could do better construction that most of you guys. Power tools, levers and a good knowledge base as well as a willingness to learn how to use new machines, makes me as strong as any man doing that kind of work.
I don't have any fight left in me and no energy behind complaints. It's really hard to even care or feel any passion about all this SSDD stuff, but I thought I'd just make a post to say what's up on my end with these issues.
Thanks for taking the time to read. If you want a more technical explanation of my issues see Snozzleberry's posts.
Personally, I was completely unaware of the tension on this subject here. I have only been in the chat on a few occasions, I usually limit my interaction to the forums. Now that the news site is up I'm finding that very fun to frequent as well. Perhaps it's something about the chat atmosphere itself that allows the masks to slip. The forums usually have well thought out, well written, intelligent posts. Posts that are there, and stay there, unless deleted. Maybe because most people don't log chat messages is why people feel they can speak that way. Still, no excuse.
I have always enjoyed your posts Pandora. I know you are a kind and compassionate person, and there's a reason you were chosen as the one to welcome new users to this site. If it's any consolation, I do understand how you feel. Now you may scoff at that, because I'm male
But being sick of it and just burying your head in sci-fi novels is something I'm all too familiar with. I just wanted to express my gratitude and love. And please know that there are many more men like Snozz and your husband in this world. We just get eclipsed by the looming shadow of the others at times, is all.
I have always enjoyed your posts Pandora. I know you are a kind and compassionate person, and there's a reason you were chosen as the one to welcome new users to this site. If it's any consolation, I do understand how you feel. Now you may scoff at that, because I'm male
But being sick of it and just burying your head in sci-fi novels is something I'm all too familiar with. I just wanted to express my gratitude and love. And please know that there are many more men like Snozz and your husband in this world. We just get eclipsed by the looming shadow of the others at times, is all.
So in this patriarchal society, why do I as a man... a WHITE man, have nothing to show for it?
I want resolve!
I want resolve!
You do in the countless unseen benefits you are given day in day out.
How do you know this?
soulfood said:
You deserve it becasue your both white, and a man!
Often these types of discussions resort to double standards and reverse sexism..but that is something that a lot of people dont like to hear or deal with. There is tons of male oppression in our culture..