Goodbye Psychedelic Community

[modern]

It seems you’re conflating multiple concepts, like personal consumer bias (brand recognition, price) with systemic forms of discrimination, then using “evolutionary fear” to justify them all under the same umbrella. Affirmative action addresses institutional inequities, not primal threat responses. By mixing up these distinct issues, the complexity of each one gets lost, and the argument glosses over how targeted policies can help mitigate the social and economic impacts of bias.

Cultural differences and the misinterpretation of certain behaviors may persist, but that does not negate our capacity to cooperate and enact policies that curb the damage biases inflict. Dismissing systemic barriers as “just shifting problems around” overlooks the material inequalities baked into our institutions, from education to healthcare. These are not intractable facts of nature; they are man-made structures that can be reformed.

In short, recognizing bias does not give it a free pass. It should serve as a call to action, not an excuse to shrug and say, “That’s just human nature.”

Sadly race still is an economic disadvantage and a major limit in upward mobility, so to rephrase this sentence it should be; Although both a poor white man and a poor black man are statistically likely to remain in poverty, systemic barriers mean that the poor black man has fewer opportunities to move up.

I combine them with the premise that they are all the same. Perceived value of a brand is associated with peoples (famous or similar race/sex) that are seen using said brand (massive marketing) and fundamental just goes to root “lizard brain” thinking. I’m not too informed on the logic process of thinking but acting against one’s own best interest in favor of a certain group doesn’t happen and these are all emotional responses. All our actions are based on root thinking. Again I may be completely wrong.

I’m not saying there aren’t difficulties that each has to face form being black, women, gay or whatever other margin but simply chulking up the issues one faces due to systemic problems is shifting the blame away from yourself. (Maybe it’s due to the mindset of Brazilian culture and immigrants mindset of opportunity I had)

I cannot get a loan so can’t do this… save funds for longer and attempt… but that person has easy access to loans that doesn’t make you stop your own journey. Until a certain age we usually are taught don’t run, remove hat/hoody and other small behavior changes that others don’t need to worry about sure. But what’s wrong with that? You wouldn’t approach an unknown tribe or pack of animals since they would react a certain way. We are all animals and despite how advance we are we have irrational emotional responses.

I’ll try to find the reference but affirmative action has caused those that benefited to drop out and struggle since they can’t accompany the pace and haven’t learned certain topics in public schools. There are cases that many that had merits to graduate Harvard and Yale but there were many that had low grades and such due to lack of access to earlier education. Diversity hires and other topics don’t fix the issues that each community faces.

Just read that Supreme Court voted against it… if the right or wrong choice IDK but from my own countries applications of this is has been a joke. Rather than investing in schooling they invest in “national arts” and lots of corruption. Not direct relation to the states.

I wouldn’t consider myself black but I have a black step brother and have black relatives. Here education is free but to have any chances of higher education you have supplemental studies paying tutors/schooling which is harder for the many poor citizens to provide to their kids. However public schools serve the majority yet many by own choice study in own using library and previous years material to seek and get the highest scores despite being from slums.

I have probably over simplified this issue I do think that it might just be a cultural difference due to our countries having such large differences on the same issues. Here as poor as you are born in a vast majority understand that education is the best way out. There are lots of other social issues with slum lords and gangs dominating entire regions so again certain things are just way different.

From my years in the states I remember that black women had issues with child bearing in relation with healthcare with the mortality rate being much higher I think because of some assumption on different health care needs to white women. But the issue with healthcare is another topic all together. Many think universal healthcare works but like in the UK/EU you spend months here waiting for an appointment unless you are financially able to pay private or have a good job. Canada has the same issues and as populations increase the problems all compound.

Here in Brazil race remains a weird issue that we overlook sometimes but class system here is much larger with main issue being poverty and extreme wealth differences with even some basic things becoming excessively expensive.

@Varallo thanks for pointing out my oversimplification of those topics. My logic may be wrong btw. These are just my thoughts and how I think about certain topics. Perhaps overlooking issues and trying to find solutions isn’t the right path?

 

[Varallo]

I combine them with the premise that they are all the same. Perceived value of a brand is associated with peoples (famous or similar race/sex) that are seen using said brand (massive marketing) and fundamental just goes to root “lizard brain” thinking. I’m not too informed on the logic process of thinking but acting against one’s own best interest in favor of a certain group doesn’t happen and these are all emotional responses. All our actions are based on root thinking. Again I may be completely wrong.

I’m not saying there aren’t difficulties that each has to face form being black, women, gay or whatever other margin but simply chulking up the issues one faces due to systemic problems is shifting the blame away from yourself. (Maybe it’s due to the mindset of Brazilian culture and immigrants mindset of opportunity I had)

I cannot get a loan so can’t do this… save funds for longer and attempt… but that person has easy access to loans that doesn’t make you stop your own journey. Until a certain age we usually are taught don’t run, remove hat/hoody and other small behavior changes that others don’t need to worry about sure. But what’s wrong with that? You wouldn’t approach an unknown tribe or pack of animals since they would react a certain way. We are all animals and despite how advance we are we have irrational emotional responses.

I’ll try to find the reference but affirmative action has caused those that benefited to drop out and struggle since they can’t accompany the pace and haven’t learned certain topics in public schools. There are cases that many that had merits to graduate Harvard and Yale but there were many that had low grades and such due to lack of access to earlier education. Diversity hires and other topics don’t fix the issues that each community faces.

Just read that Supreme Court voted against it… if the right or wrong choice IDK but from my own countries applications of this is has been a joke. Rather than investing in schooling they invest in “national arts” and lots of corruption. Not direct relation to the states.

I wouldn’t consider myself black but I have a black step brother and have black relatives. Here education is free but to have any chances of higher education you have supplemental studies paying tutors/schooling which is harder for the many poor citizens to provide to their kids. However public schools serve the majority yet many by own choice study in own using library and previous years material to seek and get the highest scores despite being from slums.

I have probably over simplified this issue I do think that it might just be a cultural difference due to our countries having such large differences on the same issues. Here as poor as you are born in a vast majority understand that education is the best way out. There are lots of other social issues with slum lords and gangs dominating entire regions so again certain things are just way different.

From my years in the states I remember that black women had issues with child bearing in relation with healthcare with the mortality rate being much higher I think because of some assumption on different health care needs to white women. But the issue with healthcare is another topic all together. Many think universal healthcare works but like in the UK/EU you spend months here waiting for an appointment unless you are financially able to pay private or have a good job. Canada has the same issues and as populations increase the problems all compound.

Here in Brazil race remains a weird issue that we overlook sometimes but class system here is much larger with main issue being poverty and extreme wealth differences with even some basic things becoming excessively expensive.

@Varallo thanks for pointing out my oversimplification of those topics. My logic may be wrong btw. These are just my thoughts and how I think about certain topics. Perhaps overlooking issues and trying to find solutions isn’t the right path?

I do think that you’re over simplifying things, but I also think that your trying to make sense of it all. The problem is that it’s really difficult to understand these things without statistics and allot of research, and even then it’s an complex system, so by definition it’s difficult to understand since it’s changing by itself through itself.
The key thing to remember is that gigantic, interconnected systems aren’t accurately captured by a handful of anecdotes or success stories. It’s easy to point to someone who “made it” despite challenges, or to someone who “failed” despite opportunities, but those examples can’t stand in for the broader patterns that research and data might reveal.

So don’t be too hard on yourself for oversimplifying; people, including myself, do this all the time, especially when discussing complicated topics. Systems like these involve countless moving parts, culture, economic factors, historical inequalities, political decisions, and so on. It’s natural to draw on your own experiences to make sense of it, but realize that partial views can miss other realities.
In the end I think that to understanding these systems it often requires stepping back, looking at the larger evidence, and recognizing that it’s difficult to solve problems that are systemic in nature.

I’m off to bed, a lovely discussion so far.

 

[modern]

Some interesting facts:

Eastern European countries rank relatively high in gender equality in STEM education and careers. For example:

• In Lithuania, 57% of STEM graduates are women, one of the highest rates in the EU.
• In Bulgaria, 54% of STEM graduates are women.
• In Latvia, 52% of scientists and engineers are women.

Women are particularly well-represented in disciplines like mathematics, computer science, and engineering in countries such as Russia, Ukraine, and Poland.

a large issue with these countries when using to compare are a almost complete lack of diversity and differing social issues compared to other countries like USA.
Here is Brazil the amount workers in sciences fields are around 50-52% women with a lower amount in math fields I think 20% was on news recently.

Returning to certain statistics like I mentioned certain jobs I actually think women should even have a majority in the field due to the different ways we think and process information. Not a question of ability to think but everyone has different emotional responses leading to better analysis or certain other requirements that certain jobs require.

Does a 50/50 representation equate to equality? Are women using psychedelics at equal proportions as men? (trying to bring back the topic and not run off too much) Like with black men I remember seeing only a single figure where he would explore massive doses of mushrooms. But in general psychedelics are not a widely used psychoactive in comparison to say weed or other more party drugs. Even here in Brasil the use is extremely restricted to a small group of either religious practices or a very limited amount of psychonauts. Female representation here is limited to a few women that are decedents of shamans and a larger share in the daime churches. Would a 50/50 representation here be a considered equality since it is indeed a small fraction that use psychedelics?

Like with the topic of race I'm sure I oversimplified this topic on women since I'm not a woman I can speak to the experience but why would any community be so far off behavior wise to society as a whole?

 

[Transform]

But I am pretty sure that they don’t have the same opportunities to move up in organizations or get the same salary as their male counterparts.

A close female relative of mine could say a whole lot about glass ceilings and the condescending male culture that she experienced in the STEM field, at least from her perspective of having worked for a fairly large, US-based company. Her experiences will be far from unique.

 

[Jungleheart]

@Transform I think it depends a lot on company culture. If someone is unhappy with the culture at a company, they can try moving to a better one.

Not all companies have FAANG style cultures, but a lot do. I've been in toxic cultures and ones where I was mentored. The toxic cultures aren't nice for the men either.

Gender definitely doesn't have to be the end all and be all for your career, there are plenty of women at the highest levels. I would never tell myself my gender is holding me back, that seems self-defeating.

 

[Jamie01]

To be fair, the real psychedelic community is thriving and much more connected today through sites like this than ever before.

I meet people all the time in the mainstream who know about this stuff. They don’t know 1/100th of what the community here and larger community do.

The average person walking around might well know what ayahuasca is…sorta. That’s not the psychedelic community to me.

It’s more about stocks and patents and money now. That’s the mainstream psychedelic thing. It feels fairly removed from the actual community and maybe isn’t a reflection of the best that psychedelics have to offer.

 

[Jamie01]

I don’t have the links atm but maybe someone else does?…but this whole MAPS MDMA approval thing has been discussed elsewhere with Hamilton Morris and others…psychedelics today etc.

Maybe ppl here don’t want to get into what Nese Devenot and psymposia did here, and I get that. Sorta. I’m pretty darn skepticsl of the way MAPS and the MDMA studies have framed as of late.

The way they painted Martin Ball was bad enough. Don’t have to like the guy but god damn psymposia is just terrible garbage. If people think that’s justice, or even okay…I don’t need to feel like I am part of that community. It’s gone too far in a paranoid direction.

It’s a lot of effort to go out and totally trash other people.

There seems to be an element of this that is just the community eating itself.

 

[CommonConduit]

I don’t have the links atm but maybe someone else does?…but this whole MAPS MDMA approval thing has been discussed elsewhere with Hamilton Morris and others…psychedelics today etc.

Maybe ppl here don’t want to get into what Nese Devenot and psymposia did here, and I get that. Sorta. I’m pretty darn skepticsl of the way MAPS and the MDMA studies have framed as of late.

The way they painted Martin Ball was bad enough. Don’t have to like the guy but god damn psymposia is just terrible garbage. If people think that’s justice, or even okay…I don’t need to feel like I am part of that community. It’s gone too far in a paranoid direction.

It’s a lot of effort to go out and totally trash other people.

There seems to be an element of this that is just the community eating itself.

Mmm, it gives me comfort to know that there are a few watchdogs barking. Are you saying we should keep a lid on things just so we can get these things legalized?

 

[Jamie01]

Kinda hard to even get into that discussion until the lying stops.

I don’t consider them watchdogs. I used to respect them. Now I can’t take anything they say at face value.

 

[Varallo]

I don’t have the links atm but maybe someone else does?…but this whole MAPS MDMA approval thing has been discussed elsewhere with Hamilton Morris and others…psychedelics today etc.

Maybe ppl here don’t want to get into what Nese Devenot and psymposia did here, and I get that. Sorta. I’m pretty darn skepticsl of the way MAPS and the MDMA studies have framed as of late.

The way they painted Martin Ball was bad enough. Don’t have to like the guy but god damn psymposia is just terrible garbage. If people think that’s justice, or even okay…I don’t need to feel like I am part of that community. It’s gone too far in a paranoid direction.

It’s a lot of effort to go out and totally trash other people.

There seems to be an element of this that is just the community eating itself.

So what went wrong in your opinion, I don’t know the details of Nese Devenot and psymposia so I’m interested in your thoughts on that.

 

[Jamie01]

It’s not my opinion so much as just what really happened. The way it’s been framed in this thread I feel is unfair to MAPS etc.

I don’t think MAPS is perfect. I also don’t think Rick Doblin goes around trying to touch people inappropriately.

Everyone should fully investigate this for themselves. It’s been discussed on psychedelics today with Ingmar Gorman a few months back…again when he was on Hamiltons podcast..and again in an interview with Casey paleos.

It’s no big secret how they have chosen to go after anyone they dislike. Opposing something is one thing but I feel this goes beyond that. I’m not into trying to ruin individuals lives by associating them with sex offenders etc.

It’s more than a bit much when you try to say Doblin is touching people inappropriately because he puts his hand on your back on stage at a public conference in a way that anyone else would consider completely normal.

A lot of people likely don’t pay much attention to any of this so I get it if its all kinda strange and dramatic sounding.

 

[dreamer042]

I'm attaching Neşe Devenot's Citizen Petition to the FDA, which alleges MAPS/Lykos covered up and omitted reporting serious issues in their data reporting to the FDA. In addition to this controversy, the FDA advisory panel that voted on the approval didn't feel the research was sufficient to show the benefits outweighed the risks of using this material.

The outcome was they requested the completion of a another phase 3 trial and a re-evaluation. This is a very long and costly process to undergo that undoubtedly sets MAPS work back significantly, but it's also an opportunity to do more stringent research, show more transparency in reporting all outcomes, and really truly demonstrate the efficacy of this treatment. This isn't the end of psychedelic research by any means, just a reminder that this battle requires an impeccable level of honesty and integrity.

From the get-go that the "somatic processing" and bodywork addition as an integral part of the treatment was a risky and imo, rather foolish approach. Maybe it's incredibly effective and significantly improves outcomes, but any intervention that requires laying of hands on people is just not a good look. There is a reason no other therapeutic intervention allows it and there are so many ethical guidelines that specifically outlaw it.

I honestly don't know enough about Psymposia to say one way or the other, but I want to take them at face value. If they have a malicious intent, what's the incentive? Why form what is purported to be a non-profit watchdog group just to put out false hit pieces? To who's benefit? MAPS certainly has both a financial and a purpose driven motive, and that's not to say it's a bad thing. I do believe MDMA is an incredible tool and should be available as a therepuetic intervention, and recognize that Rick has given his whole life to this cause and that MAPS is the best positioned to make it happen, but if they are not acting with integrity, they are doing both themselves and the whole movement a disservice.

I'm looking at this setback as a clarion call that the way we move the psychedelic agenda forward is through honesty, accountability, and maintaining the highest moral, ethical, and stringent research standards. If we present the evidence factually without letting our egos and agendas get in the way, the efficacy and safety of these materials will speak for itself.

 

[Varallo]

Ah it sounds like there is some slander and mud throwing going on. I didn’t know that, but it’s sad to hear, I think that at this moment there’s an strong movement towards capitalization of psychedelics, and apparently there is also an strong movement against that capitalistic approach.

I did read this article from Neşe Devenot, a very, somewhat biased, and dark perspective on the subject and although I don’t exactly agree with the statement that there’s an elite intent (there might be) I align myself with the observations on climate change and damaging economic growth.

So far it’s difficult to say whether one or the other is right, especially without going into politics.

 

[Jungleheart]

@Varallo I kind of feel like that person hasn't done psychedelics before. How can psychedelics be used to control the population and make them accept inequality? It doesn't work like that. They are a good thing and should be legal, who cares what the tech and "liberal elites" are supposedly nefariously thinking.

@dreamer042 that was a good read and made me think even less of MAPS than I did before. I would be interested in others thoughts on it, including yours, @Jamie01.

 

[Varallo]

I kind of feel like that person hasn't done psychedelics before. How can psychedelics be used to control the population and make them accept inequality? It doesn't work like that. They are a good thing and should be legal, who cares what the tech and "liberal elites" are supposedly nefariously thinking.

From what I’ve read they have extensive experience with psychedelics, but that’s not really the point, I think the paper is about how commercialization of psychedelics and AI is reinforcing, not solving, systemic problems. The mental health crisis that is being mentioned all the time is in there opinion not one to solve by individual treatment but by systemic change.
I think that they are right about that, the links then made to Silicon Valley elites and how they’re shaping these technologies to serve their own ideological goals, rather than addressing mental health, climate change, or social injustice are a bit far fetched in some ways but do make sense when looking at some of the things that are said.

Especially when looking at the things that are happening now in the political arenas I can’t seem to outrun thoughts of total big tech billionaire domination.

 

[🌺🔥🫧]

Love finds a way

Focus on what is

Come on Nexians, where is our energy at?

We are Adventurous
We are Kind
We are Fun
We are fucking sexy

And clearly we have a lot to learn about what there is to appreciate, since all I see is critique. We are all hyper sensitive to negative vibes, so be mindful of and protect that which makes us feel ALIVE, even if it’s only a mindset

MAPS has officially been trying to legalize MDMA for 30+ years, within the USA legal system. We are not skeptics, and critics, we are supporters and we try to encourage that which IS going well about the various imperfect things we manifest.

There is also a lot of underground. It’s just a quiet voice, especially globally, and is not like psychedelics inspire people to be super vocal either. So don’t forget to put your focus on that part of us which operates outside of The State and is truly there.

 

[Jamie01]

Here’s a bit more on the MAPS/psymposia thing
https://amestallisker.substack.com/p/highlighting-bias-and-misinformation

 

[dreamer042]

Here’s a bit more on the MAPS/psymposia thing
Highlighting Bias and Misinformation from Psymposia and its Supporters

Wow! There is a whole lot moar drama around this than I knew.

Read the TESCREAL hallucinations: Psychedelic and AI hype as inequality engines article.
Watched Ingmar Gorman on Psychedelics today (couldn't find the other two referenced videos)
Read Ames’s Substack (who is this anyway and what is their role in this mess?)
Read This article: The Unbelievable Claims of Psymposia about MAPS and MDMA-Assisted Therapy

And it all looks like one big mess to me. he said/she said, gossip, personal attacks, cherry picked research, egos, and agendas

I thought Jamie was being hyperbolic when he mentioned people accusing Rick of running around touching people inappropriately in public.I didn't realize that claim was being made in earnest

Anyway, I'd say this whole situation is just a bad look for everyone involved.

Putting all that nonsense aside, the FDA approved panel of experts found the efficacy of the research unconvincing and that's why we don't have prescription Midomafetamine today. Either MDMA is not as effective as we'd all like to believe, or the research methodology wasn't really up to snuff; and in either case, we gotta stop the infighting, shore up our evidence and approach, and try, try again.

 

[Varallo]

Here’s a bit more on the MAPS/psymposia thing
Highlighting Bias and Misinformation from Psymposia and its Supporters

The juice…..to be fair this has nothing to do with an informed discussion or scientific debate but is about the clashing of ideology. And apparently it’s an ideological standoff where neither side is willing to yield. In a way that’s worrisome in itself because it’s not about the facts or science but about beliefs, I think beliefs should not matter or determine the outcome in evidence based medicine.

When reading all this I think that the evidence for the use of mdma in ptsd therapy is weak and for now not enough, if this is something that is going to change, I’m not to sure.

The problem with psychedelics as medicine is that they need a very strong therapeutic framework to work, the question then remains whether it’s the therapeutic framework or the drug that does the trick (as is also true for many other options) So far I’m not too sure that there’s a chance of getting any of the common psychedelics really accepted into mainstream medicine.
Compounding this issue is the reality that, outside of controlled settings, individuals will inevitably attempt to practice psychedelic-assisted therapy without the necessary expertise.
The field has already shown a tendency to attract unscrupulous individuals who, after undergoing their own psychedelic experiences, develop a guru complex, positioning themselves as healers or shamans. This dynamic has contributed to numerous cases of exploitation, and other ethical breaches, adding another layer of concern to the integration of psychedelics into medicine.

 

[CommonConduit]

“Do magic mushrooms really help to think differently?”

Article in our main economic newspaper De Tijd about the psychedelic revival.

‍

Thiel’s Compass Pathways mentioned too .. bloody Nosferatu