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I want to like DMT, but it feels so bad!

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S

Samadhi-Sukha-Upekkha

Rising Star
Hi fellow Nexians, here is a request for help from my friend who has trouble with DMT experiences. For conveniences, it's written in the first person.

Hello Nexians, I'm so appreciative of everything I've learned from you guys. I hope that someone can help me with this problem. Like the title says, I really want to learn how to love DMT and have the kinds of amazing experiences, filled with love and bliss, that I read about all the time. But I never have those experiences! I've had about one blastoff that was pleasurable out of about 15. I know I'm still quite inexperienced with DMT, but I don't think I'm going to get any more experienced with blastoff doses until I can find a way to stop them from being so unhappy.

Has everyone here experienced mental suffering at a sub-breakthrough dose? The common advice here is to push through the horrid anxiety, bodyload, and misery and go for the actual breakthrough and then you're supposed to be fine. Great! That works for most people. But for me, that feeling doesn't go away in hyperspace. It just results in unpleasant hyperspace. The "entities," if you really want to use that term (I don't find it a good match for what I experience, but it's less inaccurate than many other terms), aren't nice. They treat me like a drunk idiot. The kinder ones are merely smug and superior while they try to assure me that I'll be feeling better soon, whereas the less kind ones laugh or jeer.

I'm a pretty psychologically stable person nowadays aside from the occasional mood swing lasting a few hours to a few days. Comes with the territory of having the genetics for bipolar disorder, even though I definitely don't have that or even cyclothymia. Everybody has issues, but because of a great deal of psychological work that I've done to deal with depression several years back and to become a more mature and stable person, I'd like to think that I manage psychological issues better than the average person outside of the mood swings.

What gives? I plan to make Electric Sheep within the next month, and it's possible that ES will totally solve the problem of hyperspace being grating and unpleasant. In fact, I haven't ever heard a negative report from ES. But I still would like to hear people's suggestions for how to enjoy tryptamines (psilocin is just as unpleasant as DMT, less intense, but of course much longer lasting).

I know that not every trip is a good trip, and I certainly wouldn't make a big deal of the occasional bad trip here or there. Every psychonaut deals with the fact that sometimes, psychedelics put you in hell or purgatory for a while. My issue is that EVERY trip is like one of those two. This happens even though I can't identify any particular psychological issues, problems with set and setting, or other reasons that I should find tryptamines so consistently unpleasant. Any thoughts? I'd be glad to answer any questions you may have in order to make this process work better.
 
Experiment with various changas especially with caapi leaves

and do not have expectations

observe with the wide opened eye inside and all around

sometimes it goes way beyond love and I can relate to you in that it certainly doesnt feel "good" sometimes
words cant even describe as far as I know
 
I wouldn’t bank on Electric Sheep removing the dark side of your journeys!

In my experience the type of effects you are describing come from within. This may be because of the anticipation and trepidation caused by a difficult experience or your state of mind when embarking. Ensure that your set and setting is good and you will be doing as much as you can to control your experience. After that you will pretty much get what you’re dealt, whether you find this comfortable or not is up to you.

As burnt says it may well be worth having a break for a while and coming back with a fresh head, I personally find that dosing small gives me overwhelming bodyload so I wouldn’t start low personally, but everyone is different so maybe this will be a good route for you also.
 
Here’s how I’d respond to your “friend”:

You seem to have very particular expectations regarding your DMT experiences. You want your experiences to be loving and blissful (who doesn’t?) but that’s not what you’re getting. We all have unique neurophysiological makeups, and maybe yours is such that “positive” experiences are naturally very rare.

If you hadn’t read any experience reports and knew nothing about the effects of DMT prior to using it, would you still be using it? If someone gave you a mystery drug, you tried it and became violently ill, would you take it again? It seems to me that the only reason you’re continuing to use DMT is because you hope that you’ll have more positive experiences. Maybe you will, maybe you won’t. It’s not for everyone.

So far, I’ve only had one opportunity to let a friend try it. She tried it (a sub-breakthrough dose), thought the physical sensations were awful, and said she never wanted to try it again. As I said, it’s not for everyone.

Having said all of that, maybe the problem is much simpler. Here are some questions whose answers might help us help you:

What is your smoking technique / method of ingestion? How much do you use? How often? If smoking, how many doses per session? Do you use MAOIs? Do you have strong expectations going in?
 
Astralking said:
I find the lower i dose the worse it makes me feel. Low doses sometimes used to make me anxious.
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I agree with this. If I take a sub breakthrough dose, I usually come away from it a bit confused and having had no real insight. I dont find the experience particularly enjoyable. It's only when I have the couage and determination to really rip 3 or 4 hits that I come back from whatever I see blown away, usually either laughing or crying.

I'm not saying this applies to you, maybe so, maybe not, but DMT is an all or nothing experience IMO. I dont see the point in taking small doses, as it isn't "fun" or a pleasing distraction like some other drugs can be. If you are still experiencing negativity on higher doses, maybe you just dont like it?

The only suggestion I have to remedy this is to see the experience as a reflection of yourself. YOU are the experience, YOU are creating it. Appreciate how truely wonderful and miraculous you are and hopefully that aspect of yourself will be reflected in your trip.
 
i personally enjoy low doses quite a bit...ive been smoking dmt for almost three years now..and have had many many many many breakthroughs..some very pleasant and some not so pleasant! but now when i smoke low doses..its like the fog lifts from my mind and i get to just feel the drug instead of it showing me everything its got..

i think low doses are GREAT...and i think the idea that lower doses cause anxiety will make the experience darker...sometimes i realllly enjoy taking a hit and just knocking on the door..and saying hello through the window...wave a bit..and then come back away from the barrier..

but dont listen to what i have to say...this is just how i do it :p
 
I don't fully agree with alot of whats being said here. If you really want to have a good experience there are a few things i can recommend

don't give up for one, keep trying until you come up with a method that works for you. Take this opportunity to learn about yourself. You must try not be afraid of any aspect of yourself. Everything about yourself is fair game in this.

Its probably important to establish a few really good journeys to see whats possible. sometimes its a little easier to take the rough ones once you've had a few really amazing ones under your belt.

its been said over and over but set and setting are everything. Make it a special occasion, find the best place you can. I find a beautiful natural setting away from people to be the best for me.

Leave plenty of time, take an entire day to do this. Do not have any place to be afterwards. A time constraint can always create tension and anxiety . Never never be in a hurry to get it done. This is key

do a full personal inventory of all things in your life. make some phone calls resolve unfinished stuff with people. Call someone and tell them you love them. seriously this stuff works !!

Once you have your place before you do anything burn a candle, light some sage and declare your intent. Be humble talk it out with your self put your intention out there. You can even ask it to go easy on you this time.

get comfortable start with low doses make sure you stuff is as pure as possible. Take some ginger capsules beforehand just in case. Any kind of body discomfort can turn the whole thing negative. You want to avoid all negativity , think positive and have a light attitude. keep a sense of humor make yourself laugh.

try starting with low doses at first . regardless of the common wisdom here it is possible to ease your a way in. mix a just a little high grade happy weed with it .

this works, trust me , it may take a little time but you'll get there. once you do you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.
 
gibran2 said:
If you hadn’t read any experience reports and knew nothing about the effects of DMT prior to using it, would you still be using it? If someone gave you a mystery drug, you tried it and became violently ill, would you take it again? It seems to me that the only reason you’re continuing to use DMT is because you hope that you’ll have more positive experiences. Maybe you will, maybe you won’t. It’s not for everyone.
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Yea, I have to say, the title of this thread makes me cringe. I don't want to like any substance. I explore those which I do enjoy and ignore those I do not. Why would you want to like something that makes you feel bad? Who cares how it affects others if this is how it affects you?
 
SnozzleBerry said:
gibran2 said:
If you hadn’t read any experience reports and knew nothing about the effects of DMT prior to using it, would you still be using it? If someone gave you a mystery drug, you tried it and became violently ill, would you take it again? It seems to me that the only reason you’re continuing to use DMT is because you hope that you’ll have more positive experiences. Maybe you will, maybe you won’t. It’s not for everyone.
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Yea, I have to say, the title of this thread makes me cringe. I don't want to like any substance. I explore those which I do enjoy and ignore those I do not. Why would you want to like something that makes you feel bad? Who cares how it affects others if this is how it affects you?
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I know what you mean, but it is an acquired taste, and the rewards, as you can read from many trip reports, can be phenominal. It isn 't like other drugs, where you can just take them and either enjoy the effects, or ride out the bad ones. It is much more of an experience in and of itself as opposed to a "drug experience". It is bloody hard work, and requires a disciplined mind to get the most out of these experiences. Don't get me wrong, I am nowhere near there, but I can appreciate what it takes.
 
1664 said:
I know what you mean, but it is an acquired taste, and the rewards, as you can read from many trip reports, can be phenominal.
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I disagree, ime, this is not true. I didn't acquire an affinity for DMT. I had my first experience where I died and had an OBE. It felt completely natural to me, I recognized it as something incredibly familiar and I began working with it. There was no "bad" feeling that had to be overpowered or a "taste" that had to be acquired. It was an experience that resonated with me to the essence of my being.

1664 said:
It isn 't like other drugs, where you can just take them and either enjoy the effects, or ride out the bad ones. It is much more of an experience in and of itself as opposed to a "drug experience".
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Again I disagree. Either you take it and enjoy it, or you don't and ride it out (this is literally how my experiences go, on "good" ones I am lost in entheogenic ecstacy and on "bad" ones I ride out the schizophrenia). It seems like you're trying to tie in some wonky new age stuff. This IS a drug experience. It has an incredible amount of possible implications and interpretations in daily life, but that in no way means it's not a "drug experience". Yes, it can be frightening or nerve-wracking to return to these realms and one must be able to accept annihilation, but either you can or you can't. It's the same reason some people say a gram of mushrooms makes them trip ballz or they eat acid and go out to the club; they can't truly handle these things and are deceiving themselves. DMT is not for everyone, if you don't have the wetware to make it appealing, why force it?

Personally I have no interest in BDSM, but, from what I hear, some BDSM play gives earth-shattering orgasms. While I think that that's a cool phenomenon and awesome for those individuals who are interested and aroused by that type of sex-play, that doesn't mean I'm going to try to derive pleasure from something I know to be antithetical to my nature. Granted, it doesn't mean with enough work I couldn't learn to enjoy it, but that's not a path that intrigues or interests me, regardless of other peoples experiences (or trip reports). That's the other thing, people seem so fascinated by other people's trip reports and in this they seem to forget that they are merely the best representations of incommunicable experiences that people can create. They are generally filled with metaphor and various other literary devices in an attempt to paint as best a picture as possible. However, once you start really working with this stuff, it becomes quite apparent how little a trip report can truly convey. I'm not saying DMT should be cordoned off for those who "click" with it, but if getting bound and gagged isn't bringing that super-orgasm, do you really enjoy being bound and gagged enough to wait for the day such an orgasm might come?
 
SWIM agrees with SnozzleBerry & Gibran2. At no point after first trying DMT did she have any question that this was a relationship she needed to pursue. Even with the very negative experiences of taking doses much too high for her to start with. Absolutely no process of acquiring a taste, the call came through loud and clear. Learning to effectively engage the relationship took practice.

Myron Stolaroff talks about individuals who spend too much time on the high doses, blasting through the discomfort of low doses where a lot of the growth work needs to take place. After SWIM's work with changa and the carrier wave, this rings true to her, and it seems common here at the Nexus as well. YMMV though.
 
^^ fair points from both of the above. I too have that feeling when in hyperspace of it being so natural and comfortable. It often feels like it has triggered a memory somehow. I guess what I was trying to say was the prep work for me to get to the stage where I would consider taking something like DMT took many years. Acquired taste was a poor choice of phrase.

I do stand by it not feeling like a drug experience though. I don't mean that in some kind of "wonky" new age way, (if you met me you'd probably laugh at describing me as new age! :) ) but on MDMA, or modest amounts of mushrooms etc. I can feel the effect of a drug. When in hyperspace, it feels so completely real that it is more like visiting a different place, rather than an effect. Of course, you are there because you smoked a drug, but the experience the drug gives feels fundamentally different to any other I have had.

I'm not quite sure what you mean re: mushrooms and acid, but maybe we agree there? You can take those things, and if you wish, go out with your friends to the woods / a party and have a good fun time. I wouldn't approach DMT in that way though.

I see what you are saying about SM etc, but the OP seems like he / she really wants to learn how to enjoy the DMT experience. I would be surprised if that is impossible to do if they are committed to it.
:d
 
The above tips and debate are all quite valid...

And I would say to try other entheogens, and probably try other entheogens before embarking again into the tryptamine realms.

Try mescaline, perhaps. Try to see if it will help you sort out some of the issues which may be causing bad DMT experiences, and even if it doesn't sort things out, maybe you will find that mescaline is your way,

Another option would be to try ayahuasca, if you want to persist with tryptamines. Make some real ayahuasca, not ayahaoma (rue), in low doses and see if it can help you sort things out.
 
1664 said:
I do stand by it not feeling like a drug experience though. I don't mean that in some kind of "wonky" new age way, (if you met me you'd probably laugh at describing me as new age! :) ) but on MDMA, or modest amounts of mushrooms etc. I can feel the effect of a drug. When in hyperspace, it feels so completely real that it is more like visiting a different place, rather than an effect. Of course, you are there because you smoked a drug, but the experience the drug gives feels fundamentally different to any other I have had.
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Ahh, ok, I see what you are saying, and yea, imo, that's the hyperrealness of that place. Whether it is internal or external, the key is dmt. I agree that the reality presented feels entirely independent and autonomous and I felt/feel something kindred with this place. This is what I was saying and I understand now that you were saying it in a different way.

1664 said:
I'm not quite sure what you mean re: mushrooms and acid, but maybe we agree there? You can take those things, and if you wish, go out with your friends to the woods / a party and have a good fun time. I wouldn't approach DMT in that way though.

I see what you are saying about SM etc, but the OP seems like he / she really wants to learn how to enjoy the DMT experience. I would be surprised if that is impossible to do if they are committed to it.
:d
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For mushrooms, people eat low doses and think it's a trip, but if they ate a real dose, they would have their socks knocked off. People dont understand how incomprehensibly deep the rabbit hole goes. So yea, you can eat low doses and still be "here", leading many people to believe they understand or "get" what the experience is about, when in reality they have only the faintest inkling (the funny thing is that, given the fractal nature of existence, even those who have been quite deep have only the faintest inkling, the difference is they are usually aware that the only thing the know is that they know nothing). DMT, being such a potent drug provides none of these recreational or "false" levels; there are failed/bodyload only experiences or there are psychedlic experiences (granted this gets further subdivided, but its much different going from 20mg to 40mg of dmt than say 1g to 2g of mushrooms, it's a steeper exponential curve).

I don't think it's impossible to work towards it, I'm just saying that if one is looking for it to be enjoyable, it just may not be. As with the BDSM example, if you dont mind being bound and gagged or see it as a mere discomfort on your way to the promise of the greatest orgasm ever, then you keep with it until you get said orgasm or give up. This is the same with yogic practices, qi gong, any religious practice, and really any spiritual practice in general. You take them up in pursuit of an endgoal (enlightenment/ecstasy) and stick with it as long as the pros outweigh the cons. If you wake up for synagogue every saturday feeling pissed off and grumpy and you leave synagogue happy, relaxed and at peace with the world, you continue the practice. If you leave pissed off and grumpy and annoyed you spent the time sitting and praying, you discard the practice and search for spiritual fulfillment elsewhere. Imo, this is no different with respect to the practice of entheogen use.
 
generally when someone does something that has a 'bad' consequence, they stop doing it once they realize the pattern. Maybe psychedelics aren't for you? Maybe your not in the right place in your life to be exploring your consciousness with these tools?

My advice would be to take a break. Eat right, exercise properly, spend your time doing something else; spreading love, all that goodstuff, then come back to it and see what the experience is.

Maybe this is a obvious lesson it is trying to show you, but your just trying to force out a way of gaining a 'positive' trip? Only you contain your own answers, nobody here at the nexus; everyone here is just expressing their own opinions and what works for them.

If you really want to resolve this, you will. But only if you look for your answers inside, not outside on the internet. Only you know what your last trips showed you and only you know your own life =] Goodluck!
 
I appreciate the outpouring of suggestions and ideas here. There are, of course, differing opinions on the matter from all contributors here, but I think some are resulting from misunderstandings.

I don't really want to learn how to enjoy bad feelings. While I definitely acknowledge that nobody is capable of forcing only positivity and pleasure from psychedelics, I am of the opinion that it's valid to search for ways to improve my experience. I may or may not succeed at finding a way to make tryptamines enjoyable, but what's the worst plausible thing that would happen? I waste some time and money trying to change something that I wasn't able to. In that process, rather than learning how to make a particular type of unpleasant sensation stop arising and become replaced by pleasant sensations, I just build psychological resilience by bearing the unpleasantness with grace and acceptance instead of freaking out. The trip always ends, you know? Unpleasant experiences pass, and unpleasant DMT experiences don't take a long time to pass.

At any rate, my experience says that by being doggedly determined to learn something from an experience, no matter what the experience is actually like, then you will learn something most of the time.

On the other hand, what better things might happen? Maybe I can find something to change about myself, or the way I relate to the DMT experience, that causes a higher frequency of enjoyable trips. Enjoyable not because of some having cultivated some taste for masochism; enjoyable simply because they aren't dominated by unpleasant sensations.

What is your smoking technique / method of ingestion? How much do you use? How often? If smoking, how many doses per session? Do you use MAOIs? Do you have strong expectations going in?
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The amount varies. I have a vaporizing bong based on The Key, which my cluster-headache-suffering friend named The Cure. For a breakthrough, 50 milligrams are loaded into the device (sprinkled onto steel wool inside the two hose connectors) and a torch lighter is used to heat the steel wool until the DMT begins to fill the chamber. The breaths are held for 15 seconds, as counted by the sitter, and I keep taking lungfulls until I don't know what The Cure, DMT, or lungfulls are. At this point, I just lie down comfortably on a prepared space on the floor with my jacket rolled up into a pillow and some water nearby. Drinking water on DMT is usually awesome!

I don't use MAOIs because they amplify the brain-foggy feeling that I get from DMT. I dislike not being able to think clearly.

As for expectations going in, I can't honestly say that I'm aware of every expectation or habit that I bring into DMT trips because nobody is conscious of all of that stuff. What I can tell you is this: I expect some anxiety to arise while I'm taking the breaths, as I wonder what the fuck I'm getting myself into this time. I can effectively deal with that wave of anxiety and it's usually gone about 15 seconds after I lie down. My current expectations for a trip are that it will be like previous DMT trips -- I have no clue what I'll see, time will be dilated, perhaps extensively, it will be intense enough to blow my mind, and Christina Aguilera screaming in my ear will sound awesome if I have her music playing. I can't speak more about expectations because if I try to recall what DMT trips are like, I confabulate too much stuff. It's hard to remember trips, you know?

As for frequency of trips, I haven't broken through in about 2 months, by my own choice. I was traumatized by a terrible pharmahuasca experience (90mg DMT and 200mg Caapi Copy in orange juice) and have been giving myself plenty of time to try and let the expectation that DMT=pain fade away. In the meantime, I've only used doses between 30 and 40mg in the Cure. Some of the experiences weren't particularly interesting, and some were downright unpleasant. However, thinking further, I can recall a few fun trips among the neutral and unpleasant ones since the pharmahuasca trip. In the original post, I wasn't thinking about those trips when I said that "all the trips are either hell or purgatory." That's why I believe it's worth my time to try and find out what factors make those trips more likely, and the unpleasant trips less likely.

I think a big factor here is that pharmahuasca trip. That was my first real bad trip, and nothing I've done since has been that intense. Even though shrooms felt like a minor version of the pharmahuasca trip, I was able to deal with them MUCH more effectively, with zero freaking out. So I don't count that as a "real" bad trip even though it wasn't fun.

To those who have spoken to answers coming from within, not from other people, I see a good deal of truth in that statement. This thread is half myself talking through this problem and trying to see it from different perspectives, and half requesting help from my fellow Nexians. Along that line, so far I've noticed the expectation that DMT=pain, and the fact that this equation is not true, even after the pharmahuasca experience. Going into trips with that unconscious expectation, even if they're mild trips, has probably contributed to my difficulties. I don't think it was the only factor -- I expected shrooms to be 5 hours of fun, but they still ended up being 1 hour of fun and 4 hours of waiting for it to go away. However, I had way too high of a dose for a first-time shroomer, even a first-time shroomer with DMT experience.

So in looking at my DMT trips from this standpoint, I cannot conclude that DMT is always unpleasant or that I'm unsuited to working with DMT. I think it would be better to hold the view that I'm still a novice at working with DMT, and it requires experience and removal of some wrong beliefs about DMT trips in order to increase the amount of enjoyment I can have. Back when I first worked with DMT, it was fun at ALL the doses from threshold to blastoff. Beginner's luck, I suppose! It was magical. I've waited a long time without going to hyperspace, and I think when I do go back, this time with Electric Sheep, it might just be magical again if I prepare right.

So, what are people's thoughts on that? The process isn't over, but I've gained some really helpful new perspectives. What further areas can be explored here? Suggestions, comments, constructive criticism, etc. are welcome.
 
You seem very articulate and intelligent, and I wish you all the best with having a positive, wonderful experience =)

But I must say, I don't want to offend you or anything but this comment worries me a little - " I may or may not succeed at finding a way to make tryptamines enjoyable, but what's the worst plausible thing that would happen? I waste some time and money trying to change something that I wasn't able to. "

In my experience, I have seen a lot of horrible damage psychedelics have done to people. There is def a "worst possible thing" that could happen- you could have your entire ego shattered, every particle of yourself destroyed and never be the same... Whilst its admirable you want to 'push' through as such, just don't underestimate how powerful the substance is... To be honest, you might just keep having bad experiences and they could do permanent psychological damage no matter how strong of a person you are.

Peace
 
Samadhi-Sukha-Upekkha said:
...So, what are people's thoughts on that? The process isn't over, but I've gained some really helpful new perspectives. What further areas can be explored here? Suggestions, comments, constructive criticism, etc. are welcome.
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Regarding MAOI’s – taking 10mg of Caapi Copy sublingually about 20 minutes before your journey will slow the experience down and make it more manageable. For me, such a small dose never causes any mental fogginess but is enough to change the nature of the experience. And for the ultimate in mental clarity, use THH instead of CC.

Here’s another suggestion, and I’m not sure if it’s responsible, but it might actually help: increase your frequency of use, at least until you start having some positive experiences. Waiting so long between journeys gives you lots of time to ruminate on a prior bad experience. Time doesn’t necessarily cause fears to fade.

A dose of 50mg seems to be on the high end as far as breakthrough doses are concerned. I’d suggest taking the minimum amount necessary to reliably break through. (My minimum dose for guaranteed breakthrough is 25mg, and 30mg is an uncomfortably strong dose. I can't imagine what 50mg would do to me!)

Have you considered using a different smoking device? I’m not familiar with what you’re using, but if there’s any burning or even “toasting” of your spice, that might be having an effect. I use the GVG and I can’t praise it enough.

Hope this helps!
 
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