Illusion of free-will?

[RhythmSpring]

If one drug leans towards uncovering the illusory and another towards freewill, which experience do you have the most faith in?

Whichever serves me at that moment.

How do you define the responsible use of freewill?

Responsible use of free will? Just considering future consequences, that's all. On yourself and others, and perhaps generations to follow.

 

[joedirt]

I don't really have much more to add to this thread as I've spelled out my thoughts enough I think.

I just want to say, Hugs, you are correct when people are debating with the intention of holding their position no matter what then they absolutely will never answer with a yes or no or allow themselves to be led in a direction for the sake of making a point. If however the two parties are interested in testing the truth or validity of said positions then it becomes imperative to allow your self to directly answer questions.

I assure you. If you want to lead me down a path to better understand your view I will certainly do it.

Ultimately the only thing I would have to lose would be a faulty position...and yet I have everything to gain as once I drop my faulty position I can update my beliefs with new information. So I never really engage in debate per say.. I find it simply taxing to do so. But exploratory conversation I very much enjoy. At the end of the day the only thing I am every interested in these day's is getting closer to the truth. That's simply not possible if I take the stance that I already know it all.. cause I clearly don't!


Lastly, I'm not really interested in trying to change your view. I am however very curious as to how you can hold the views of absolutely no free will at all, and at the same time hold the view that the universe is not conscious through you. But I'm probably not interested enough to engage it further in this thread.

In any event you guy's can carry this thread forward. Lots of good contributions. Just keep it clean and open everyone. Lots to learn and discover about others views.

Peace.

 

[ManicMongrel]

...

My answers came back like this. The only division between me and the universe at a large is a mental label. Furthermore thoughts aren't even physically real.. I mean they have no mass and can't be directly measured (The only other 'thing' we know like this is light itself). or sure we can look at a EEG and see a correlation to brain activity, but we aren't directly measuring a specific thought. Going even deeper I can directly observe the mind churning just as I can observe the a tree blowing in the wind...

(I haven't read the whole thread, and I apologize if this has been taken up already.)

This reminds me of the mosaic multiverse metaphor:

The universe we observe can be considered one angle of view into a mosaic with an infinite number of dimensions, whenever you decide to move and look into the mosaic from a different angle you see a new image that often has some similarities with the previous. Every time you move and look into the mosaic your angle of view changes and a new image emerges, sometimes it has striking resemblance to something you have seen before a long time ago, other times the next image look nothing like the previous.

To relate this to the concept of free will, you could say that whether we have free will or not largely depend on our current angle of view. If we consider ourselves to have free will, this view will to some extent unavoidably give rise to a subtle subconscious influence on our choices. The same holds for a view where we follow the belief that we do not have free will, this will in turn give rise to a different subtle influence on our choices.

If we try to design a neurological experiment to test free will, it is almost impossible to come up with a design that is not colored by our current bias in some way or the other. The same principle often apply when trying to interpret the results.

To me the concept of free will is like many other philosophical concepts something we have constructed in order to try to understand reality better, in some ways its a trick question where the real purpose is to keep up the healthy habit of reflection.

 

[spacexplorer]

If you are indistinguishable from the universe then the real question would be, does the universe have free will? Anything you do or seem to do or happens to you, the universe did it and therefore since there is no difference, you are essentially doing things to yourself.

So does the universe have free will?

 

[BubbleCat]

If the past, present and future are all happening at once and we are using the concept of linear time to help us navigate existence then i agree with the above statements.

at once

is the problem here, when discussing an idea qe can not use a contradicting idea as a foundation, "at once" indicates a very human, very instinctive understanding od time, a dinension we need to keep things the way we understand them, I would like to say "all things happen" a statement in which all ideas of time are excludet. All things happen and we need or at least use the idea of time for orientation.

I believe that my work here is done in this thread

That defines philosophy, the science of questions that we dont have a final answer available for. Out work here serves no higher purpose than our own curiosity and our enjoyment that we find in philosophy, a final answer is what we dont find

So does the universe have free will?

Neither more or less than we, does anything have free will ? Theres something the universe is part of, but we cant see it, being bound to the laws and ways of the universe.

Who knows why this thread came to my mind at 4 am, I'm a helpless philosopher

 

[BundleflowerPower]

I've really enjoyed following this thread.

So how would intuition factor into this? I've been in situations in which my intuition says, "you need to get out of this situation." It seemed like it could have gone either way, that is, I could've stayed or left. Perhaps it was simply an illusion and my intuition was just nature's way steering me to my pre-appointed destiny?

 

[BubbleCat]

You made a decision, and if it was to make none, you made one, did something, and if it was doing nothing. The way I see the things, someone omniscient would have known before, it was bound to happen this way, just as a lintel falls of the side of a mountain, or mind makes decisions at certain points, and we call it a decision, implying it was a free choice.

It couldnt have been any more, or less free, so call it free if you want free inside of limitations that only allows for the things to be as they are.

Buridans ass might be worth "checking out"
The donkey depicted inhabits a sterile world with nothinh biasing him, so he makes no decision, which then again is a decision.

 

[BundleflowerPower]

That makes sense, we have free will within limits.

I went through a phase a few years ago where I was obsessed with economics and markets. I learned that humans are very irrational, especially when in large groups. Perhaps things like irrationality and group-think argue against free will. How humans, when in a group will do some horrible shit that they wouldn't otherwise do.

 

[BubbleCat]

Like "the wave" ?

 

[spacexplorer]

So does the universe have free will?

Neither more or less than we, does anything have free will ? Theres something the universe is part of, but we cant see it, being bound to the laws and ways of the universe.

Yes it all has free will

 

[hixidom]

I'm coming into this conversation too late too be able to confidently assume that what I'm going to say hasn't been said already, but I did notice that Gibran hasn't posted yet, so there's a chance...

Our perception is that we live in a deterministic universe where every action has a reaction, flowers follow the sun, etc. So based on that perception as well as the assumption that we exist within this universe, the only available conclusion is that we are also deterministic beings. But I would like to point out that our perceptions can be wrong. In particular, since we cannot trust our perceptions in general, how can we trust the Main perception which is that the world exists and we exist in it. It could very well be a figment of our transcendent mind and, if such a thing exists, who's to say that the laws of the imagined universe apply anymore? If reality originates from withing our mind, then it might be that we will our lives to follow the paths that they follow, even the part where we forget that it was all our choice to begin with.

Anyways, regarding all problems like this one: In my experience, reality loves irony, so the truth always seems to be the possibility opposite of our actual beliefs, if not the one we never even thought to consider, if not the one that is beyond our understanding entirely.

 

[Mindlusion]

Anyways, regarding all problems like this one: In my experience, reality loves irony, so the truth always seems to be the possibility opposite of our actual beliefs, if not the one we never even thought to consider, if not the one that is beyond our understanding entirely.

^ this.
As I find often with hixidom's posts, there is real wisdom here.

In my experience, the greatest truths truly are paradoxical. The way I choose to see it is a truth that contradicts our best logic, which is indeed humbling in a humorous ironic sort of way.

How else are we going to learn anything if we can't laugh at ourselves?

As for free will, my experience has been another one of these ironic paradoxes. Without getting too philosophical about what free will is, I will try to explain how it came about for me. For as long as I could freely exercise my own will, I was actually in shackles without even knowing it. Only when I could admit that my own will was not enough, and let go of that completely. And then by trusting that I could follow a will greater than my own, this is when those chains were broken. My will didn't have to be enough, and never was supposed to be. By surrendering what I thought was my free will, I gained real freedom.

Now if only that could happen everyday! We wouldn't be human if it were that easy

 

[spacexplorer]

I see it as the "Ego" the false self, has no free will. The "True Self" has free will, but it doesn't come from you "knowing" all your actions before you do them. The "True Self" just is "Being" it just "Be's" and that's the expression of your true self.

Every time you have a mental belief overlaid on your "Being" your true self is slightly limited in it's full FREE expression. So if you are trying to dance (A great expression of pure being) and you are really self conscious with a bunch of beliefs like..."I'm scared" "People will make fun of me" "I can't dance well" "I'm awkward", you are limiting how you are actually going to dance. You are limiting the free expression of being in the dancing form. (Just an example with dancing). It might work oppositely with positive beliefs, such as "I am the best dancer" "I am unstoppable" etc etc but I think in the end when you are freely expressing all beliefs are let go.

If you are snowboarding or doing any other kind of dangerous downhill activity and you doubt yourself on every turn you are limiting your expression and you might get hurt. So instead of seeing the small shrub sticking out your mind is focused on your feeling of doubt that you "might get hurt" and because for that small instant you limited your "being" you end up hitting the shrub and flipping over.

Does this make sense to anyone?

 

[Psychelectric]

I see fate and free will as a paradox that exist in perfect harmony. I believe working through our illusions and delusions to solve this riddle is the mandala of life.

 

[Psychelectric]

I think that's a great explanation spaceexplorer.

 

[gibran2]

Imagine a multi-verse which includes every possible you. Which “you” has free will?

 

[Infectedstyle]

All of them have will. I think It's "just" a record of how it went. I really can't know.

 

[Koornut]

Imagine a multi-verse which includes every possible you. Which “you” has free will?

Do all the "you's" have a connected consciousness, like facets of the same gemstone; each facet extruding into a separate universe but still connected to the whole?

If this is the case and every possible "you" is happening simultaneously, then there are an infinite number of "you's" that have free will, and an infinite number that do not (or at least appear that way). But since they are all parts of the same inaccessible whole, it might be healthy to assume that it is impossible to determine which universe one is living in (free will or no) without the ability to exit a particular frame of reference and dive into the greater "pool" of possible "you's", and have a little look around.

If this is not the case and every possible "you" is happening both simultaneously and independently of each other, then it is even more impossible to determine which you is you.

And around and around we go :lol:

 

[hug46]

it is certainly a hard thing to swallow for most people that's for sure!

Yes it certainly is Redguard. I even believe that i have freewill but i also think that the freewill i believe in is an illusion.

If one drug leans towards uncovering the illusory and another towards freewill, which experience do you have the most faith in?

Whichever serves me at that moment. Razz

But doesn"t the reliance on drugs to decide when and whether you have freewill help to underline the possibility that you have no freewill?

I just want to say, Hugs, you are correct when people are debating with the intention of holding their position no matter what then they absolutely will never answer with a yes or no or allow themselves to be led in a direction for the sake of making a point.

I don"t necessarily think that people refuse to answer with a straight yes or no just to hold a position. They also have deep rooted desires to further qualify their yes or no answers. To be fair i did actually answer your question with a yes but that i was a part of the universe. If i had said yes or no to be being indistinguishible to the universe you would have responded with your theory and i would still have been confused because my understanding of it would have relied on me giving you an honest answer from myself. I am sorry that i led you into a debate but sometimes "shit happens". I will add that i do appreciate that you, and other members, take the time to reply to my posts.

I am however very curious as to how you can hold the views of absolutely no free will at all, and at the same time hold the view that the universe is not conscious through you. But I'm probably not interested enough to engage it further in this thread.

Ok Joe as you have declared yourself out, i shall not expect an answer but i would not think that the universe was conscious through me if i had freewill or if i didn"t have freewill and the reason why is explained by you below.

You use the analogy of rock. Sure a rock isn't conscious. Are your bones conscious? Are your bones you? So the universe has large sections that aren't conscious..just like a human body.

There is so much in the universe that isn"t alive and therefore not conscious. Also isn"t there about 85per cent of the universe that we don"t even know what it is? So how can we say that it is conscious through me? I am probably not philosophical enough to grasp the universe being conscious through me but, as Jacques Prévert wrote, "je suis comme je suis". I am happy to possibly admit that some of it could be conscious through me.

If the past, present and future are all happening at once and we are using the concept of linear time to help us navigate existence then i agree with the above statements.............................at once

is the problem here, when discussing an idea qe can not use a contradicting idea as a foundation, "at once" indicates a very human, very instinctive understanding od time, a dinension we need to keep things the way we understand them, I would like to say "all things happen" a statement in which all ideas of time are excludet. All things happen and we need or at least use the idea of time for orientation.

I will say that, at the time of writing that sentence, i thought about different ways of expressing my thoughts. "Everything happening at the same time" and "everything happening at the same moment" were out as i wanted to get away from the concept of time being in the sentence, which i found very difficult. "The present, past and future all being together in a big messy splodge" was originally my first thought. It"s not a very beautiful sentence but maybe more apt?

For as long as I could freely exercise my own will, I was actually in shackles without even knowing it. Only when I could admit that my own will was not enough, and let go of that completely. And then by trusting that I could follow a will greater than my own, this is when those chains were broken. My will didn't have to be enough, and never was supposed to be. By surrendering what I thought was my free will, I gained real freedom.

It may or may not be similar to your statement above mindlusion but I have found that shrugging my shoulders every once in a while and saying "inshallah" has been, paradoxically, very empowering. This practice and subsequent feeling of empowerment is probably having quite an influencing bias on how i enter into this discussion.

If you are snowboarding or doing any other kind of dangerous downhill activity and you doubt yourself on every turn you are limiting your expression and you might get hurt. So instead of seeing the small shrub sticking out your mind is focused on your feeling of doubt that you "might get hurt" and because for that small instant you limited your "being" you end up hitting the shrub and flipping over.

IME with dangerous sports it is the ego that has enabled me to learn how to engage with certain obstacles. You learn by making mistakes. Then, when i am in the zone, instinct and knowledge work in combination.

Imagine a multi-verse which includes every possible you. Which “you” has free will?

Wouldnt it depend on the physical laws of each universe? Maybe an infinite amount of me that had no freewill, an infinite amount that had freewill, an infinite amount that had no freewill but still thought that they did and an infinite amount of me that had freewill, but only on Fridays......

 

[starway6]

Illusion is everywhere in this physical plane of existance!

From the way we feel when we try to impress or depress other people...

All the material things we want that boost our egos ..[is just another example of illusion]..

The way we can see ourselves...more illusion fueled by the ego...

When Look into the mirror... who am i really?



Might as well pick one you like the most and enjoy it.. for you are experiancing this with your physical brain...

Being human is partly an illusion.. because [human] is just a word that we try to describe ourselves with and its meaning makes us feel superior to other life forms on this planet..

But really we and [all life on earth]..are all very much alive and equal.. only we may exist on diferent vibratory plains.....

Only problem because of [not understanding each other] we fear each other some times and that fear feeds more illusion...

[[Horror]]..... We must make a friend of horror... because without this freindship...then there is something to fear...

Every desicion or move we make.. is checked and re checked hundreds or thousands of times in out three pound universes we call the brain...

These checks and ballences move at dizzying speeds inside our heads like visiting past episodes of learnt information .. like visiting many stage playes..of past experiances that tells us what we should or should not do...

This body that i have is not me...I am stored information.. gathered since the minute i was born...

I just hope we have souls...we must have !!