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Implication of language on perception of reality?

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Which is funny, because we as creatures seem to often mistake this.

I think there's a difference between language affecting  reality and language affecting the phenomenology of what may be reality.

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Ah well put, I love it, this is exactly where the tension exists between constructivist and positivist views. So maybe the question is how much of our perceived reality is phenomenological versus objective.
This starts to bump into Goethe's "scientific" (though I would be more inclined to say phenomenological) discourse.
I’m not to well versed in the ideas of Goethe, but I think you could say that he’s right in between the positivist and constructionist approach.

Really nice, if I have a bit of time I’ll read up on Goethe, thanks for that.
 
In short: the Real may be unrepresentable.

May be a bit semantic but I would say the "real" may be only representable, as opposed to unrepresentable, and not ever experiencable/perceivable directly.

Ah well put, I love it, this is exactly where the tension exists between constructivist and positivist views. So maybe the question is how much of our perceived reality is phenomenological versus objective.

I’m not to well versed in the ideas of Goethe, but I think you could say that he’s right in between the positivist and constructionist approach.

Really nice, if I have a bit of time I’ll read up on Goethe, thanks for that.

Yes, I think a middle ground between positivism and constructionism is a good way to see Goethe's way of seeing the world to a point. He uses deep observation of a phenomenon coupled with replicating it exactly in ones imagination as a way to come to develop new "organs of perception".

In some ways you could see Goethe as quite positivist. He was very into meticulous observation of a phenomenon in order to understand it, there was a world out there to be understood and yet this world that we perceive is meditated strongly by our subjective experience of it. His way to knowledge in some sense, as I understand it, is through the subjective nature of experience.

The works of Henri Bortoft are the works I get most out of about Goethe's thinking if not already familiar with it. Though if you read German perhaps Goethe himself would be better.
 
May be a bit semantic but I would say the "real" may be only representable, as opposed to unrepresentable, and not ever experiencable/perceivable directly.

Semantics are the point here, of course.

Seems slightly more ... reasonable to claim re-ality as not re-presentable, in my view.

Maybe it's 'ality' we live in ;)

We can agree to disagree!
 
The works of Henri Bortoft are the works I get most out of about Goethe's thinking if not already familiar with it. Though if you read German perhaps Goethe himself would be better.
🌅 -> 👀(Goethe) -> 👀(Bortoft) -> 👀(Animistic) -> 👀(Me!!!) This is like a family tree of observers observing observers of observers of nature!

I'll add it to my reading list... gosh, so much to know!
 
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Can you guys watch this, and have a think?

No matter how many viewers there's been it won't change the fact that language emerged from an interpretation of reality, which created language and not the other way around. That doesn't mean language doesn't shape our perception but i think it's important to remain, euh... realistic! And references to $¢ientologi$t Keanu Reeves playing « The One » in 'The Matrix' in reaction to this topic should raise some red flags.
 
Ah well put, I love it, this is exactly where the tension exists between constructivist and positivist views. So maybe the question is how much of our perceived reality is phenomenological versus objective.
This is where it gets fun.
Wittegnstein would say that most of what we're talking about is nonsense and so doesn't mean anything. 🤣 he'd likely also observe that words are not what they picture; they are a representation of what is pictured. The picture never fully represents what's pictured. In this way, we only have our phenomenology.

I'd wager that we have 0 100% objectivity in anything, but have gradients of objectivity with given things relative to the context and variables of what we're attempting to be objective about.

I think of Kant: we experience plenty of phenomena, but very little noumena (if any).

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The language thing is getting to me.

Was meditating a moment ago about us as (a) lifeform(s) being in constant communication, throwing around these peculiar mouth sounds at one another.

It feels like such a ... smoke screen.

I recall writing a text about the movie Sound of Metal, portraying a drummer who loses his hearing and joins a community of deaf people.

While preparing for the movie, the lead actor Riz Ahmed was initiated in the deaf community. It’s pretty amazing to learn what the actor took away from that experience: “There’s a saying in the deaf community that hearing people are emotionally repressed because we hide behind words. We use words to mask our true feelings.”

Later, he went on to state: “I learned sign language but I also learned what real communication is, what real listening is, from the deaf community. And I’m so grateful for that.” (That was from an interview with Colbert.)

 
While preparing for the movie, the lead actor Riz Ahmed was initiated in the deaf community. It’s pretty amazing to learn what the actor took away from that experience: “There’s a saying in the deaf community that hearing people are emotionally repressed because we hide behind words. We use words to mask our true feelings.”

Later, he went on to state: “I learned sign language but I also learned what real communication is, what real listening is, from the deaf community. And I’m so grateful for that.” (That was from an interview with Colbert.)
Ironically they have auditory language to thank for their experience of "real" communication, because silent communication isn't very handy in most survival situations.

Imagine you see a lion coming for your tribes man, they're looking away from you, but you desperately sign to run to no avail, until you decide to throw a rock to get their attention 🙃

And it's not words we use to mask our feelings, it's sounds (tone, timbre, inflection, volume, speed) that are used beneath the words we use to mask our feelings, imo. Deaf people when signing are still using words, just in a different format, and without the same kinds of potential embellishments.

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And it's not words we use to mask our feelings, it's sounds (tone, timbre, inflection, volume, speed) that are used beneath the words we use to mask our feelings, imo. Deaf people when signing are still using words, just in a different format, and without the same kinds of potential embellishments.

The words themselves do so as well, I find.
I honestly perceive words as things that ... create a container for something. Take spoken language away, and sensory perception expands drastically again. I've experienced that myself after doing silent retreats.
 
Can you elaborate, because as stated, deaf people use words, but instead of speaking them they sign them.

I won't disagree that the perceptual and sensory modes open up when certain types of information are not present (ie sound), hence why I stated all the things that surround words that also impact how we interpret and view them.

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It would be silly of me to think that I could do away with words entirely now that I've mastered language.

You're definitely right in saying that deaf people still have a repertoire of signs, especially the ones that spoke at a point earlier in time.

But the experiment may still be a valid one.
What happens when you consciously refrain from speaking, reading and writing for an extended period?
What happens if you do that together in community?
 
But the experiment may still be a valid one.
What happens when you consciously refrain from speaking, reading and writing for an extended period?
What happens if you do that together in community?
Ironically, the bulk of my day has been and will continue to be in silence. Granted I'm reading text by interacting here.

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Oh, member is made a topic by these me-too users today: Fire, , Varallo, Voidmatrix and CommonConduit. 1 a "moderator", 1 already on my [ IGNORE ] list, plus 2 more now. M'Yep! That was a productive day indeed...

Next topic: hummm... Maybe i remember later!
 
I don't care who that was, the picture captured my attention. Nothing personal, i won't remember your alias tomorrow...
Oh, member is made a topic by these me-too users today: Fire, , Varallo, Voidmatrix and CommonConduit. 1 a "moderator", 1 already on my [ IGNORE ] list, plus 2 more now. M'Yep! That was a productive day indeed...

Next topic: hummm... Maybe i remember later!
Bad move, must be the fault of permanent ADHD again.
Joined: Dec 19, 2024
Messages: 1



So a total newbie comes around whi complains about his vilification & abuse of a most precious gift from dame Nature, somehow supposed to heal him from « living in heaven » and now blaming it in a « therapy » forum dedicated to « trauma »... Signed "The King" in indonesian language, e.g. from a country where possession is punishable by 4 to 12 years of imprisonment!

Just in time for Christmass! Hummm... I see. 🤔

IMHO there should be restrictions put on fresh-new subscriptions, like a probation period to prevent instant gratification.

M'well. Strange decisions indeed, but don't expect me to fall for it even a micro-second!

🥱


Ref.:

What is the penalty for drug possession and trafficking in Indonesia?
« Like in many countries, Indonesia has Capital Punishments for Possession and Trafficking of illegal drugs.
Possession is punishable by 4 to 12 years of imprisonment. There is also IDR 800 million to 8 billion (US$89,600 to US$896,000) worth of fines. f the drugs exceed 1 kilogram (for raw drugs like marijuana) or 5 grams (for processed drugs like heroin and cocaine), a maximum punishment of life imprisonment may be imposed.
Trafficking is punishable by 5 to 15 years of imprisonment and fines of IDR one billion to ten billion (US$112,000 to US$1.2 million). If the volume of drugs exceeds 1 kilogram (for raw drugs) or 5 grams (for processed drugs), the death penalty may be imposed. »​
I've been watching you. 👁

Stop being a punk.

You're on notice. Be polite, or be gone.
 
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