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Instant ayahuasca little lightening bolt TEK

Migrated topic.
First experiment:

I re-dissolved ~3g MHRB AE residue into 30ml of vodka. Mixed in approx. 2g of lime, transferred to a test tube. Let it settle for a couple of hours.

Pics 1 - 2 - 3 respectively depict: the lime mixture right after mixing, the lime mixture when settled, the pipetted tincture (deposited in a 50ml shot bottle).

What surprised me is that lime layer is so big. The end tincture is only 12ml or so. I don't know whether this means that a lot of DMT is now lost in the lime layer, or is there reason to believe that the DMT is 'pushed up' into the top layer? Too much lime? Not enough liquid?

@Transform : How does the tincture in the photo visually compare to your product?

EDIT: I thought I was supposed to add lime until the entire tincture turned grey-- Am I wrong there?

1.JPG

2.JPG


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Yes, the lime layer is irritatingly voluminous. It's necessary to let the sediment drain in a funnel plugged with some cotton wool to improve yields. Use a bit more vodka to wash out the occluded, alkaloid-laden solvent..

Did I mention that this could be time-consuming, unless you're willing to accept that paltry volume of extract as a convenience trade-off, perhaps?

I would advise performing a few test-tube trials to ascertain the minimum effective ratio of lime necessary. Your product looks quite pale so maybe you've used an excess. It would be possible to use up the excess by gradually adding fresh amounts of whole tincture until the supernatant attains a slightly orange tinge. This process is still at the stage of art rather than science :D

A centrifuge would also be a useful bit of kit for this particular method.
 
Would it interfere with the tannin precipitation to simply dissolve the plant material in significantly more liquid but with the same amount of lime? From previous posts it seems that tannin content rather than amount of liquid is what determines how much lime is needed. In this way, there might be much less DMT trapped in the lime layer?
EDIT: In previous posts you've suggested that vodka > higher % ABV liquids because tannins might more easily redissolve in the latter, but would less alcohol and more water interference with lime precipitation? Asking in the context of the idea of increasing the volume to avoid a lot of DMT trapped in the lime layer.

After the lime step, one then could reduce the volume of the purified product on low heat on the stove to get it down to a desireable volume?
 
Would it interfere with the tannin precipitation to simply dissolve the plant material in significantly more liquid but with the same amount of lime? From previous posts it seems that tannin content rather than amount of liquid is what determines how much lime is needed. In this way, there might be much less DMT trapped in the lime layer?
EDIT: In previous posts you've suggested that vodka > higher % ABV liquids because tannins might more easily redissolve in the latter, but would less alcohol and more water interference with lime precipitation? Asking in the context of the idea of increasing the volume to avoid a lot of DMT trapped in the lime layer.

After the lime step, one then could reduce the volume of the purified product on low heat on the stove to get it down to a desireable volume?
Good thinking! Because of rinsing the plant material with more vodka the initial volume was kept lower (and there were also intrinsic limitations based on the glassware available). The lime precipitate was similarly rinsed so the resulting questions become - how much solvent is acceptable at the end of the process, and how dilute is too dilute?

I see you take care of the latter question in proposing an evaporation step, although those who have the capacity to do so would recover the solvent through distillation. Having to drink five shots' worth of vodka to get a sufficient dose of extract, for example, sounds somewhat excessive to me. It therefore makes sense to evaporate down if the aim is to produce a liquid extract for direct consumption.

During the evaporation process, the alcohol would tend to volatilise preferentially, so I wonder if there might come a point where the freebase alkaloids might start to precipitate. It would be exciting to be able to obtain a solid precipitated extract by cooling the partially evaporated solvent. If this works out, it will be time to branch off this method into its own thread. [This was a roundabout way of addressing the question about lower %ABV solvent - there is a yet-to-be-established lower limit where the solubility of DMT becomes too poor, and the lime precipitation would then co-occur with DMT. In such and instance, the DMT could still be recovered with a higher %ABV rinse.]

While one further intention was to avoid additional heating of the extract, this may not be a relevant factor since the initial extraction involved heating to 60°C, although evaporating vodka could involve temperatures ranging up to 90°C or so. In the one experiment, the initial volumes of solvent were minimised on account of the experimental intention of replicating the vodka freeze-precipitation/oiling out observation without having to perform a concentration step. Of course, this proceed rather differently than the plan since a whole lot of ice crystals formed instead (the formation of additional water during the lime treatment had been overlooked).

The desire to avoid slow and cumbersome filtration is quite understandable. Rather than using a large volume of solvent right from the start, the rinses could be carried out in the settling jar whereby the settling out of solids should, with any luck, be quicker than a filtration. Future experiments will likely be carried out after this pattern since filtering the lime precipitate was, indeed, far too slow.
 
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Well, never mind, the fucking humongous volume of the lime layer makes this inherently not the easy-way-to-tannin-free-brew it was all but promised to be, unless indeed one is inclined toward extreme wastefulness. Thanks for withholding that particular piece of information, whilst so generously flaunting less useful ones!

Did I mention that this could be time-consuming?
No!
 
Well, never mind, the fucking humongous volume of the lime layer makes this inherently not the easy-way-to-tannin-free-brew it was all but promised to be, unless indeed one is inclined toward extreme wastefulness. Thanks for withholding that particular piece of information, whilst so generously flaunting less useful ones!

Transfom said:
Did I mention that this could be time-consuming?
No!
My apologies. Maybe repeatedly and explicitly stating the experimental nature of the procedure wasn't clear enough. Also, this probably counts as yellow chemistry (see below), so what can one expect? ;) It seems rather unfair to claim that this was billed as anything in particular, rather I recall my tack being "would anyone care to try this out?" while being clear that many of the specific details remain to be established. Practical chemistry often goes hand-in-hand with a large degree of frustration!

There are different grades of easy - this one is 'easy' in the sense of not having to seek out any other solvents besides one which could even be prepared at home using fermentation and distillation. Lime can also be prepared by anyone who has access to shells and hot fire. On that level it's easy in the sense of being uncoupled from the constraints of commerce, such as the difficult availability of naphtha in certain areas of the world. If it was to be billed as anything, "off-grid" might come closer (especially if we ignore the optional use of microwaves and refrigeration).

Thanks for trying it out and reporting your results. Perhaps you'll get a chance to try out the clarified tincture anyhow? And don't forget that I mentioned the possible utility of a centrifuge when dealing with this stuff.

(And yes, I do enjoy the taste of grass!)

 
It seems rather unfair to claim that this was billed as anything in particular, rather I recall my tack being "would anyone care to try this out?" while being clear that many of the specific details remain to be established. Practical chemistry often goes hand-in-hand with a large degree of frustration!
I can only say that I feel there was a lack of forthrightness w/r/t the knowledge already available, i.e. that certain parts were deliberately witheld, some might say to 'encourage' experimentation, though I rather feel 'manipulated into' experimentation. And this you will now probably deny. Oh well!

I will be trying out the tincture in any case at some point; should some relevant knowledge come out of that I will be reporting it.

Just another idea in case others would like to spend time and money experimenting: Perhaps freeze/thawing the brew several times to clear out plant matter would result in a brew that require significantly less lime to remove the tannins and hence reduce the problem of humongous lime layers-- Although considering the extra work involved at that point, I expect it would be more fruitful to simply extract DMT if you have the required materials for this.
 
I can only say that I feel there was a lack of forthrightness w/r/t the knowledge already available, i.e. that certain parts were deliberately witheld, some might say to 'encourage' experimentation, though I rather feel 'manipulated into' experimentation. And this you will now probably deny. Oh well!

I will be trying out the tincture in any case at some point; should some relevant knowledge come out of that I will be reporting it.

Just another idea in case others would like to spend time and money experimenting: Perhaps freeze/thawing the brew several times to clear out plant matter would result in a brew that require significantly less lime to remove the tannins and hence reduce the problem of humongous lime layers-- Although considering the extra work involved at that point, I expect it would be more fruitful to simply extract DMT if you have the required materials for this.
Please desist from accusing me of deliberately withholding stuff. I'm much more scatterbrained than manipulative. For example, I genuinely forgot exactly how much lime was used, along with various other details that had to come from memory. If you think it's a rubbish method, that's fine - at least we have another datapoint now.

Some of your difficulties may well stem from having used too much lime, however.

Any pretreatment which reduces the amount of tannins prior to the final lime precipitation would obviously go towards making this a more viable process, so thank you once more for your efforts in this collaboration. You have helped contribute ideas which I may not have come up with by myself.
 
If you think it's a rubbish method, that's fine - at least we have another datapoint now.
I don't think that. I think it was very smart of you to connect that acorn video to this and that there is a lot of potential here for people who do not have access to solvents etc. for extracting; especially if the evaporated product turns out to be useable for vape juice, as I believe you've speculated.

RE: the manipulation thing, I don't know what to think now. I guess I've been successfully gaslit too often to simply give you (or anyone else over the internet) the benefit of the doubt, so I'll declare myself agnostic w/r/t the issue.

I still have a fair amount of brew left so I'll probably tinker with the lime approach some more in the future, though it will be a while. Anything noteworthy I will report back.
 
I don't think that. I think it was very smart of you to connect that acorn video to this and that there is a lot of potential here for people who do not have access to solvents etc. for extracting; especially if the evaporated product turns out to be useable for vape juice, as I believe you've speculated.

RE: the manipulation thing, I don't know what to think now. I guess I've been successfully gaslit too often to simply give you (or anyone else over the internet) the benefit of the doubt, so I'll declare myself agnostic w/r/t the issue.

I still have a fair amount of brew left so I'll probably tinker with the lime approach some more in the future, though it will be a while. Anything noteworthy I will report back.
It's OK, I took the opportunity - since I was also feeling rather under the weather - to drink a couple of 2.5g doses of rue tea and see what the plants had to say about your situation. I realised that you probably have had some adverse experiences of your own to deal with, which you now confirm. And I'll strive to be clearer in my communication in future. I'm too busy for a few more weeks yet, but after that I'll scrape together the relevant information to make it a bit clearer how the vodka lime method worked for me so far (and how long it takes!) Despite felling as though I was being fairly upfront about things, I do realise that my confusing communication style can lead to a certain degree of opacity.

It's reassuring to hear that you still have a positive take on the method itself and heartening to hear that further experimentation remains on the books. My over-enthusiasm regarding e-juice ought to be reined in somewhat since reading that those are best formulated with clean, white crystals to be assured that the atomiser coils don't gunk up too quickly. The broad-spectrum solvent properties of ethanol may make it less suitable in this respect, although I'm still intent on establishing a lower limit %ABV where a cleaner separation may possibly be achieved (thanks to your suggestions) - not that this constitutes a promise it will work!
 
I did a STB extraction of the milky stuff (Which we are calling Calcium Tannate) with lots of NaOH and naptha and got very little DMT, so I do think most of it is suspended in the alcohol. I've also been playing with neutralizing the pH of the resulting liquid (after evaporating most of the liquid) to make it suitable for use as a liquid nasal spray and have had some good results.
 
-- Although considering the extra work involved at that point, I expect it would be more fruitful to simply extract DMT if you have the required materials for this.
Sicho, there are lots of teks that are way more hassle than the ol-standards, but they end up being useful for a wide range of reasons, so I appreciate your contributions to this unproven tek. The main reason I'm so invested in exploring this tek is that I organize a cohort of about 500 therapists and guides in Colorado who are exploring various ways to incorporate DMT into their work since DMT was legalized in 2022. In 2023, they refined our state laws to make it illegal to use solvents that have a flashpoint under 100 degrees F (except alcohol/ethanol). This rules out Naptha for those who want to adhere to the law, and so I've been experimenting with dozens of teks that use solvents that are legal in Colorado, and also more accessible and less dangerous than (for example) DCM or Chloroform.

I've done about a dozen extractions using this tek with various alcohols (rum, everclear, vodka, gin, tequila, jager) and while I initially took the final product orally, I've lately been experimenting with sublingual, insufflation, and boofing it to avoid MAOIs, and playing with various ways of neutralizing the pH to make those ROAs more tolerable and pain-free.

I doubt the process will yield something that can be safely smoked/vaped, but I'm happy to take some to a local lab and invest the $ to test the purity and hopefully discover what else is in there.
 
I can only say that I feel there was a lack of forthrightness w/r/t the knowledge already available, i.e. that certain parts were deliberately witheld, some might say to 'encourage' experimentation, though I rather feel 'manipulated into' experimentation.
At worst, my take is that Transform was being a bit lazy in saying "I think this could work, and I really hope someone tries it out, but I don't have the time/energy myself to do it." But from my perspective, he was being open about his preference to have someone else test his idea, and I was all-too-happy to try it.
For me, the lime step was welcome. I've personally gotten sick every time I've drank enough Aya to have a strong experience, and I didn't get sick either of the times I drank the final product from this process (after using lime), so that's one data point.
I never tried it without the lime, so I think you would be in a better spot to compare the experience with and without the lime step. We still don't know how much DMT potency we're losing with the lime step, nor how much vomit-inducing tannins and other crap.
I have a batch going now that I'll finish and take to the lab, and I'll continue to revise this into simple text for a written tek. For now, its in a Google Doc here, and I'd really appreciate any edits/contributions from either of you:
 
Looks like you're doing excellent work @Denverevolution -- Eager to hear how your experiments progress, especially w/r/t to the various possible ROAs.

For now I have no feedback to offer on your doc as I have yet to try the one tincture I made [I hope you are correct and that most of the DMT gets pushed up into the alcohol layer, that would be wonderful news]. I do wonder why you insist that the alcohol should be 70 proof or higher? Why not vodka?

I think this thread would also benefit from someone posting the skinny on the safety of lime? I find widely diverging info, from 'safe to consume' to it supposedly being linked to some obscure disease. I ask because I noticed a tiny amount of lime dropped to the bottom of the pipetted off tincture, which I could easily have missed and then consumed.
To be clear: I am talking about accidental oral consumption of tiny amounts of pure lime. The lime I got is labeled food grade, but again, I am finding diverging info.
 
For now, its in a Google Doc here, and I'd really appreciate any edits/contributions from either of you:

I think one important thing missing in your doc is an indication of dosage. Now your document could easily be interpreted to mean that 20g MHRB is a single dose?
Curious to hear about your dosages and the intensity of the experience they gave you!
 
For now I have no feedback to offer on your doc as I have yet to try the one tincture I made [I hope you are correct and that most of the DMT gets pushed up into the alcohol layer, that would be wonderful news]. I do wonder why you insist that the alcohol should be 70 proof or higher? Why not vodka?
Every vodka I've ever seen is 70 proof or higher. Usually 80proof. But I could remove that. For all I know, this would work with water.
 
Transform was being a bit lazy
I'd be the first to admit to this :LOL:
Laziness can be an inspiration towards, efficiency, collaboration, or delegation too.

It's very uplifting to find that this idea has been of use to you 🥰

Every vodka I've ever seen is 70 proof or higher. Usually 80proof. But I could remove that. For all I know, this would work with water
It seems the tannin removal process was optimal (in the case of acorns) at the %ABV range of vodka, which presents a certain convenience. I feel the ethanol is necessary to keep the resulting freebase DMT in solution, but don't let that deter experimentation with using pure water as the solvent!
 
Tried lime-treated tincture ~5,5g MHRB. Nice experience, though nothing too intense. Lasted 2 hours or so.

Surprisingly, I quickly felt nauseous and soon after purged, even though I most often don’t purge with untreated brew. I do wonder if trace amounts of lime get stuck in the alcohol somehow. There was something subtly different about the gastro-internal discomfort in this experience.

Cannot accurately compare the intensity-relative-to-dose between lime-treated tincture and untreated alcohol tincture because I had to try a new batch of MHRB for this due to availability reasons. It did hit a little harder than I had expected.

Sidenote: Experience-wise the lime-treated tincture is surprisingly different from untreated MHRB tincture— colder, more impersonal, less exhilerating and less ‘guided’ somehow. No more mimosa ‘spirit’ after the lime treatment— alas!
 
Tried lime-treated tincture ~5,5g MHRB. Nice experience, though nothing too intense. Lasted 2 hours or so.

Surprisingly, I quickly felt nauseous and soon after purged, even though I most often don’t purge with untreated brew. I do wonder if trace amounts of lime get stuck in the alcohol somehow. There was something subtly different about the gastro-internal discomfort in this experience.

Cannot accurately compare the intensity-relative-to-dose between lime-treated tincture and untreated alcohol tincture because I had to try a new batch of MHRB for this due to availability reasons. It did hit a little harder than I had expected.

Sidenote: Experience-wise the lime-treated tincture is surprisingly different from untreated MHRB tincture— colder, more impersonal, less exhilerating and less ‘guided’ somehow. No more mimosa ‘spirit’ after the lime treatment— alas!
Thanks for reporting back!

It's highly likely that tiny lime particles can get carried over into the final product, as well as certain sodium and potassium salts from the plant material remaining in solution in the form of hydroxides.

For this reason I would typically suggest adjusting the pH back to neutral with some ascorbic acid before oral ingestion (I mean, I've tried this with the acorn tincture just to see how it tastes - lime residues left it way too alkaline.) The complement of pH adjustment is to only use just enough lime to get the job done, which can involve a bit of tinkering around (as per the youtube channel that originally introduced me to the use of lime in ethanol for tannin removal). And even with minimum necessary lime the solution will be alkaline from the freebase alkaloids.
 
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