Is chaliponga orally active?

[Infinite I]

I was wondering if you can quid chaliponga like Salvia? Has anyone done this? How many leaves would you need? Any experiences or info on this would be great thanks.

 

[Jorkest]

actually this is possible...not sure on how much..but im sure 5g would be a good start..and i also bet that if you used some harmalas it would help

 

[Infinite I]

Swim may try this then at some point when he has the time thanks for the input, he will report any experiments.

 

[Ginkgo]

Chaliponga (Diplopterys cabrerana) is most likely not orally active, but it should be active sublingually (just as Salvia).

Diplopterys cabrerana contains from 1.7 mg [McKenna, 1984] to 17.5 mg [Der Marderosian, 1968] DMT per gram. You should have this huge range in content in mind, 5 grams can give you anything from 8.5 mg to 87.5 mg.

 

[Jorkest]

i think the 5-meo is what you would be feeling the most

 

[69ron]

It IS ORALLY ACTIVE ON ITS OWN without MAOI because 5-MeO-DMT is orally active without MAOI at about 30-40 mg. SWIM guarantees that. SWIM has used pure 5-MeO-DMT orally before quite a few times without MAOI and it works.

Most chaliponga SWIM has had was very high in 5-MeO-DMT and effective as is orally at roughly 4 times the normal dose used in ayahuasca.

It's also effective sublingually as a quid but more so if powderized and mixed with a little calcium hydroxide. Although Virola theiodora resin tastes better and is effective at 1/10 the dose. With chaliponga most people need about 5 grams or more sublingually. With Virola theiodora resin most people need 0.5 grams or more.

 

[Infinite I]

It was the 5-meo swim was interested in as hes never had much luck with virola resin. Hes waiting on some atm but was wondering about other options for 5-meo. Thanks for the info hell probably try this.

 

[69ron]

Everyone is very different in terms of their 5-MeO-DMT sensitivity. Some people can get full blown effects from as little as 2 mg! Others require as much as 50 mg!

SWIY may be one of those that requires 50 mg or so. In that case, good look getting any effects at all from chaliponga. You'd probably need to do an extraction to get enough for effects. Chaliponga is about 1/10 the potency of Virola theiodora resin in terms of 5-MeO-DMT content. With Virola resin, it's normally about 1-3% 5-MeO-DMT. With chaliponga its about 0.1-0.3% 5-MeO-DMT.

If SWIY is one of those people that requires 50 mg of 5-MeO-DMT, SWIY would need about 25 grams of chaliponga sublingually or 2.5 grams of Virola theiodora resin.

Most people can get effects from 5 grams of chaliponga sublingually or 500 mg of Virola theiodora resin sublingually. SWIM is in that category, but knows quite a few other people who don't get any effects at all until 2000 mg of resin is used.

 

[acolon_5]

69Ron,

I STILL have to say that I just don't feel any 5-meo in my chaliponga. I know we've had this talk before, but I'm still not convinced.

Maybe I always get a very low meo alkaloid profile leaf? I've taken up to 35grams of chaliponga with a VERY strong Caapi brew. If 20g Chaliponga has ~50mgs of 5-meo-dmt I would have been in some SERIOUS trouble. 5-meo-dmt with a MAOI is not a smart way to travel. I have read of serious complications trying this combo.

 

[Bancopuma]

I'm no expert but I think the alkaloid levels in these leaves are all subject to massive variation between batches...things like time of year, geographic region, genetics, age of plant, harvesting technique etc are all likely to affect alkaloid concentrations and proportions.

However, on this note, many years ago now, I had a successful Syrian Rue + Chaliponga 'flash' after eating some food, a 5-7 minute breakthrough of amazing intensity, actually my most intense and incredible experience with ayahuasca, period.

The 'feel' of the experience was distinctly different from ayahuasca with chacruna, or DMT...there was a liquid, submerged, intensely blissful state experienced, that I have NEVER encountered with chacruna or DMT...

Around the time I joined these boards, I had my only experience smoking 5-Meo-DMT, amd much of the feeling of that experience were similar to my experience of Chaliponga all those years ago (although DMT was certainly exerting its influence back then as well).

 

[69ron]

69Ron,

I STILL have to say that I just don't feel any 5-meo in my chaliponga. I know we've had this talk before, but I'm still not convinced.

Maybe I always get a very low meo alkaloid profile leaf? I've taken up to 35grams of chaliponga with a VERY strong Caapi brew. If 20g Chaliponga has ~50mgs of 5-meo-dmt I would have been in some SERIOUS trouble. 5-meo-dmt with a MAOI is not a smart way to travel. I have read of serious complications trying this combo.

Acolon_5, that’s just not correct according to SWIM’s experience, but I can explain why you feel that it is correct.

SWIM has been using chaliponga for a long time now. At least 90% of the chaliponga out there is very high in 5-MeO-DMT.

SWIM is no novice here in the chaliponga and 5-MeO-DMT world, and he’s telling you the God honest truth about this. If you’re “chaliponga” is low in 5-MeO-DMT, it’s probably chacruna being sold as chaliponga. Buy it from a different vendor. Chaliponga is darker looking than chacruna, almost black when the leaves are completely dried.

I highly doubt your chaliponga is low in 5-MeO-DMT unless its not really chaliponga. That’s actually very rare.

I think your chaliponga is probably real chaliponga, and high in 5-MeO-DMT and you don’t know it.

I think you’re not detecting it because you’re expecting effects like that of smoking or snorting 5-MeO-DMT, and that just doesn’t happen when it’s taken orally with DMT. Chaliponga has about twice as much DMT as 5-MeO-DMT, and when taken orally they have similar potency, similar effects, and the DMT tends to denominate the experience, so the 5-MeO-DMT has a very minor effect on oral chaliponga, unless taken without MAOI.

Chaliponga works orally without MAOI, but the effects are that of 5-MeO-DMT only, because the DMT is not active that way. You’ll need roughly 4-6 times the dose that way for it to work. But it will still be very different from smoking or snorting 5-MeO-DMT, even though the effects are from 5-MeO-DMT. Oral 5-MeO-DMT is a very different experience from smoked or snorted 5-MeO-DMT. It’s predominately a body experience, and is much less mind blowing, more relaxed, and more DMT or psilocybin-like.

SWIM has taken 5-MeO-DMT with and without harmala alkaloids many times orally. Some people complain of side effects, but in general 5-MeO-DMT has side effects when taken orally even without MAOI. SWIM only gets side effects from oral 5-MeO-DMT and never gets it from smoked or sublingual 5-MeO-DMT.

5-MeO-DMT is very similar to DMT when taken orally with harmala alkaloids. That’s why you don’t notice it. I believe you’re expecting effects like that of smoking it, that’s just not going to happen. It’s a completely different effect from smoking 5-MeO-DMT without an MAOI.

If you tried 5-MeO-DMT orally on its own, you’d know what I’m talking about. The experience is nothing at all like smoking it or snorting it or taking it sublingually. It hits lots of different sites in the body, producing an effect that’s almost worlds apart from snorting or smoking it. The harmala alkaloids make it about twice as potent, and also make it more like DMT.

Acolon_5, try taking your chaliponga without MAOI. You’ll see, it works. The effects will be different. They will be the effects of oral 5-MeO-DMT. It’s not that nice without harmala alkaloids, but 5-MeO-DMT is effective that way. If you take 4-6 times your normal dose of chaliponga and without MAOI and you don’t feel anything I’d be very surprised.

 

[acolon_5]

I'm pretty sure that my Chali is the real thing...otherwise a very well known and respected European vendor is selling EXTREMELY potent Viridis as Chaliponga (and I highly doubt it).

However, I am NOT familiar with the effects of oral 5-meo-dmt...I was even unaware that it was orally active w/o a MAOI! However, I will take your word on that one and next time I have an abundance of chaliponga (I'm almost out) I will give it a whirl...in fact, I'll go ahead and pick up some 5-meo-dmt just for an oral experience. Granted, I HATE vaporized 5-meo-dmt...I think it is a horrible experience...but do enjoy it insufflated in very small doses (body experience as you said).

I hear so much conflicting data on Chali, I truly don't know. I've read that it contains traces, none, a ton, so with all that conflicting data you can understand my confusion.

Also, I've read reports of people making a pharmahuasca out of 5-meo-dmt and syrian rue and having horrifying experiences, including hypertensive crisis, panic, the VOID for hours on end, etc...so when I didn't get this from Chali I assumed that there was no 5-meo-dmt in it.

However from what you say I may be experiencing it without knowing it. I was just under the impression that 5-meo completely overpowers DMT and there would be supressed visuals at the very least, and this has not been my experience with brew containing chaliponga. The visuals I get from it are completely amazing...however, now that I think about it less so than with pharma (experience is better than pharma IMHO but the fireworks aren't as vivid). Hmmmm, ok, maybe I will concede. I'm still gonna have to try it orally before I am a complete believer.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to this (again!)

 

[69ron]

However, I am NOT familiar with the effects of oral 5-meo-dmt...I was even unaware that it was orally active w/o a MAOI! However, I will take your word on that one and next time I have an abundance of chaliponga (I'm almost out) I will give it a whirl...in fact, I'll go ahead and pick up some 5-meo-dmt just for an oral experience. Granted, I HATE vaporized 5-meo-dmt...I think it is a horrible experience...but do enjoy it insufflated in very small doses (body experience as you said).

SWIM also hates vaporized 5-MeO-DMT. But loves sublingual 5-MeO-DMT. Orally, it’s very different. There’s much less “mind fuck” and far more bodily sensations when taken orally. SWIM likes sublingual the most. Orally it comes on after about 30 minutes and lasts about 2-3 hours. It’s got quite a tryptamine body feel to it similar to oral bufotenine and can make you nauseated. It’s very different. The mental effects are dramatically decreased when taken orally. But the visual effects are about the same. However, harmine, harmaline, or THH will dramatically increase the visual effects making it very similar to DMT. It’s much better when taken orally with harmine, harmaline, or THH. They somehow smooth out the experience, and make it more of a classic psychedelic experience, rather than just a mental trip. There’re very few similarities between smoked 5-MeO-DMT and oral 5-MeO-DMT with harmine, harmaline, or THH. It’s apples and oranges. The modification of oral effects caused by the harmala alkaloids is huge. They increase the potency 2x, and modify almost every aspect of the trip.

I hear so much conflicting data on Chali, I truly don't know. I've read that it contains traces, none, a ton, so with all that conflicting data you can understand my confusion.

I’ve read the same stuff. But SWIM’s experience with chaliponga is that 90% or so is high in 5-MeO-DMT. That’s from many different vendors over many years, but all are US based vendors, so maybe there is a difference in the UK. It’s possible.

Also, I've read reports of people making a pharmahuasca out of 5-meo-dmt and syrian rue and having horrifying experiences, including hypertensive crisis, panic, the VOID for hours on end, etc...so when I didn't get this from Chali I assumed that there was no 5-meo-dmt in it.

SWIM has used 5-MeO-DMT with harmine, THH, and harmaline orally. He’s never used rue though, always the isolated harmala alkaloids. It’s not that good. But it’s nothing like smoked 5-MeO-DMT. It’s more like DMT or mushrooms that way. SWIM has not normally experienced any of the typical 5-MeO-DMT effects when taken as pharmahuasca. Experiencing the void is possible, panic is possible, if enough is taken, and DMT is not present in the mix. With chaliponga, there’s more DMT, and orally DMT is as potent as 5-MeO-DMT is, and because there’s twice as much, it dominates the experience.

However from what you say I may be experiencing it without knowing it. I was just under the impression that 5-meo completely overpowers DMT and there would be supressed visuals at the very least, and this has not been my experience with brew containing chaliponga.

When smoked, 5-MeO-DMT completely dominates the experience and DMT becomes a background effect. When smoked, 5-MeO-DMT is 5-10 times stronger than DMT, but orally with an MAOI, they are equal in strength. Also, the duration of effects for oral DMT and oral 5-MeO-DMT are about the same. When you smoke 10 mg of 5-MeO-DMT with 10 mg of DMT, the 5-MeO-DMT comes on faster, is 5-10 times stronger and causes tolerance to build before the DMT effects peak. That rapid tolerance build up causes the DMT to be even less potent before it peaks. So when smoked together, because of the rapid tolerance the 5-MeO-DMT causes before the DMT hits, the 5-MeO-DMT is about 20-40 times stronger than the DMT. But when taken orally, they peak at about the same time, and are about equal in potency. So chaliponga, having usually 2x as mush DMT as 5-MeO-DMT, will orally give you a trip that is dominated by the DMT content. And since they both peak at roughly the same time, the 5-MeO-DMT doesn’t have a chance to cause rapid tolerance to the DMT. The whole experience changes because of these difference in absorption rates and potency by the oral route.

The visuals I get from it are completely amazing...however, now that I think about it less so than with pharma (experience is better than pharma IMHO but the fireworks aren't as vivid). Hmmmm, ok, maybe I will concede. I'm still gonna have to try it orally before I am a complete believer.

Thanks for taking the time to respond to this (again!)

If you have pure 5-MeO-DMT and pure DMT you can better understand how this works. If you mix 10 mg of 5-MeO-DMT with 20 mg of DMT and 200 mg of harmine (if that’s enough MAOI for you) you’ll get an effect orally that’s almost exactly the same as chaliponga. The DMT will dominate the experience, however the 5-MeO-DMT is noticed, it’s however a background effect and nothing like it is when smoked.

Now if you took the same mix and smoked it, then the 5-MeO-DMT would dominate the experience. For some reason 5-MeO-DMT and DMT are equal in potency and duration when taken orally with an MAOI, but when smoked the 5-MeO-DMT comes on quicker, peaks faster, and is 5-10 times stronger than DMT. I don’t know why, but I know that to be the case. It’s interesting how they can very so much by route of administration. Also, the effects of smoked DMT are not that difference from oral DMT with MAOI. But with 5-MeO-DMT the effects are dramatically different. I wish I knew the reasons for this.

 

[polytrip]

I find ayahuasca with chaliponga as an additive generally speaking a little more speedy. For me it seems to make the visuals even a bit sharper then with just chacruna or jurema. This is pretty consistent with different batches of chaliponga. Whenever chaliponga is used as an additive, it's effects are definately different then the effects of pure insufflated 5-MeO-DMT. I think this has to do with the harmala's, but that's just a guess.

 

[polytrip]

Oh, 69ron's posted about the same time as i did, so it's no longer a guess: the harmala's DO alter the effects of 5-MeO-DMT.

 

[acolon_5]

Thanks 69Ron, that was a most facinating read.

I'll try some experimenting... I do like Chali more than Chacruna, so maybe I do like a little 5-meo with my spice (orally at least)!

 

[jamie]

I do notice the diff when smoked between a chali extraction and mimosa extraction. But the chali is still nice I and do have visuals..but I was also always making changa with it..so I guess that the MAOI's in the cappi extract were stopping any tolerance from building to the DMT, which would hit after the 5meo..plus it was probably allowing me to smoke again 5 mins later with no tolerance building..need to test this stuf out some more now. I also quidded chali 2 times..anly 2 grams though. It was mild but euphoric..no visuals.

 

[Infinite I]

Loads of great info cheers guys. I was wondering fractal was it a 5-meo effect you had from the chali?

 

[jamie]

Loads of great info cheers guys. I was wondering fractal was it a 5-meo effect you had from the chali?

Never tried pure 5meo so I cant be sure, but it was def diff from pure spice..quidding it was the most different because I had no visuals, just euphopria and mild psychedelic head-space. smoking it with cappi exract is the more similar to mimosa with cappi..

 

[69ron]

Loads of great info cheers guys. I was wondering fractal was it a 5-meo effect you had from the chali?

Never tried pure 5meo so I cant be sure, but it was def diff from pure spice..quidding it was the most different because I had no visuals, just euphopria and mild psychedelic head-space...

You just described the effects of 5-MeO-DMT exactly! Pretty much no visuals, some euphoria, and psychedelic mental effects. That's 5-MeO-DMT. It's nice when taken sublingually. Smoking it is a different story though.