Is it just a chemistry or is there more to it ?

[smokerx]

DMT enter your blood, changes chemistry of your brain and alters the state of your consciousness. The rest is just a individual experience most of the time depending on dose taken.

The same, as your reality now are just electrical signals interpreted by your brain, could be DMT experience interpreted with the same brain. Our reality is more stable than DMT one, as is chemistry of our brain. If it was the other way round we would maybe think that hyperspace is our only reality ...

What if you had a certain amount of DMT constantly in your blood? would that mean tripping for ever, living in hyperspace for ever or till your physical body functioned ?

What do you guys think is it just a chemistry or is there more to it ?

 

[tele]

What if you had a certain amount of DMT constantly in your blood? would that mean tripping for ever, living in hyperspace for ever or till your physical body functioned ?

What do you guys think is it just a chemistry or is there more to it ?

YES, yes and YES

 

[corpus callosum]

Interesting question!

Im speculating here, but I think its probably a bit more complicated than it would seem.If there were to be a certain amount of DMT within ones circulation (and Im talking about levels above any endogenous amount), I wonder if this would result in an adaptive change in 5HT receptor density/function/distribution which would result in a decremental effect, similar, I suppose, to the tolerance factor which is encountered when the brain is exposed to repeated exposure without an appreciable interval between hits.

 

[Citta]

Apart from crazy subjective experiences there are no other reasons to assume the DMT-experience is anything more than a brain on drugs. Your whole body is a big fancy chemical factory with an unimaginable number of chemical reactions going on every second in your trillions of cells. That DMT experiences have personal significance in one way or the other, is a whole different story though.

 

[smokerx]

I know that I have been shown the knowledge, the truth about all that is, on one of my trips or maybe more but I just can not remember it. When I think about it I almost get the memory back, I almost remember it like I see it but cant voice it or explain it and before I can understand it its gone again. Like I am not meant to know it now. Like it is not the time for it yet.

It looks like we are not meant to know it yet while we are experiencing being humans. I think there is more to it than just a chemistry and biology. Most of the things you are allowed to see on your trips are not from this world. These are things your brain just can not make up. Maybe our trips are something like our memories that we can access with help of plants. They may also be not just memories but completely new experiences when visiting places we have never been before.

Maybe we should not be doing what we are doing. Opening our self to other dimensions could be very dangerous. You never know what can come back with you. I am not exactly sure what I am trying to achieve by saying all this. Maybe just that there is more to it than chemistry.

But if you do think that it is only a chemistry and nothing else explain this : a friend of mine was clinically death for few minutes saw him self laying on the table and all the medical staff trying to bring him back. This surely can not be brain work. He was not worried at all and after that left this plane and visited other one where he met other intelligent beings who started to give him all the information about all that is. Before he could get it all he was suck back to this plain and when he woke up on the hospital bed he was very upset. He said he needed just a little bit more time to stay there in fact he did not want to come back at all but he had to. All the information he got was lost but he knew it was something very important.

So how would it be possible to see your self like you are someone different looking at your self if it is just a chemistry ?

 

[Wax]

Exactly, there are many people that have had out of body experiences while they were dead and give detailed descriptions of exactly who was in the room, what they were doing, what was said, what time the clock was on, etc.

There is no way that it can be purely brain chemistry, in my opinion.
The same has happened with "drugs", people leave their bodies and view them from another perspective in complete detail.

 

[Citta]

I know that I have been shown the knowledge, the truth about all that is, on one of my trips or maybe more but I just can not remember it. When I think about it I almost get the memory back, I almost remember it like I see it but cant voice it or explain it and before I can understand it its gone again. Like I am not meant to know it now. Like it is not the time for it yet.

I have experienced this too, pretty cool! I see no reason that this is not just the result of a highlighted emotional center creating enhanced feeling of meaning etc. Hallucinogens stimulate these areas - areas that are responsible for how we react to events, for how important something seems to be and so on.

It looks like we are not meant to know it yet while we are experiencing being humans. I think there is more to it than just a chemistry and biology. Most of the things you are allowed to see on your trips are not from this world. These are things your brain just can not make up. Maybe our trips are something like our memories that we can access with help of plants. They may also be not just memories but completely new experiences when visiting places we have never been before.

Or perhaps it is just as simple as your brain being on drugs, creating these subjective feelings, and no big universal secret being uncovered? Seriously, your brain functioning is going nuts on DMT, no wonder one gets these feelings as the brain tries to interpretate the ridiculous information flow it receives from overstimulated nerve cells.

So how would it be possible to see your self like you are someone different looking at your self if it is just a chemistry ?

Easy! Give me your brain and some electrodes, and I will send electrical impulses to the temporoparietal area of your brain, disturbing it/shutting it down, making your brain unable to locate your body. You will have the sensation of flowing out of your body. This is what happens during NDEs, the brain is dying, shutting down.

 

[smokerx]

Exactly, there are many people that have had out of body experiences while they were dead and give detailed descriptions of exactly who was in the room, what they were doing, what was said, what time the clock was on, etc.

There is no way that it can be purely brain chemistry, in my opinion.
The same has happened with "drugs", people leave their bodies and view them from another perspective in complete detail.

Exactly

 

[corpus callosum]

I dont think we can conclude whether or not the DMT experience is simply an aberration of brain chemistry until we have a full knowledge of the brains chemistry.Till then, both opinions remain simply that, opinions.

 

[smokerx]

Easy! Give me your brain and some electrodes, and I will send some electrical impulses to the temporoparietal area of your brain, disturbing it/shutting it down, making your brain unable to locate your body. You will have the sensation of flowing out of your body. This is what happens during NDEs, the brain is dying, shutting down.

What kind of sensation would that be ? If you find your self out of your body and still can see, think or maybe feel than surely you your self is not the physical body you are looking at and your memories are not stored in your brain. This would only mean again that there is more than just chemistry would not it ?

I am not trying to argue here so please don't get me wrong, just trying to explain how I feel and think about it.

Thank you all for sharing your opinions on this matter. It is important to me.

 

[Citta]

I dont think we can conclude whether or not the DMT experience is simply an aberration of brain chemistry until we have a full knowledge of the brains chemistry.Till then, both opinions remain simply that, opinions.

The (big) difference is that the one saying it's "just" chemistry is more likely and evidence-based than the other. Talking about hidden dimensions, universal secrets and stuff like that is just taking cool sounding explanations out of nowhere to account for something we haven't fully understood, not much different from "God of the gaps".

 

[gibran2]

Apart from crazy subjective experiences there are no other reasons to assume the DMT-experience is anything more than a brain on drugs.

I must point out (as I’m sure you knew I might) that apart from crazy subjective experiences, there are no other reasons to assume that the “consensus reality” experience is anything more than… more than… what?

...a friend of mine was clinically death for few minutes saw him self laying on the table and all the medical staff trying to bring him back. This surely can not be brain work. He was not worried at all and after that left this plane and visited other one where he met other intelligent beings who started to give him all the information about all that is. Before he could get it all he was suck back to this plain and when he woke up on the hospital bed he was very upset. He said he needed just a little bit more time to stay there in fact he did not want to come back at all but he had to. All the information he got was lost but he knew it was something very important.

So how would it be possible to see your self like you are someone different looking at your self if it is just a chemistry ?

I would say that near-death experiences are even more tantalizing than DMT experiences. I’ve read quite a few NDE reports, and there are many that describe things that are not easily explained away. To brush them off as just “the brain’s reaction to low oxygen levels” is to ignore evidence that suggests “mind” and body are not one in the same after all.

Another point I wanted to make is that not everyone’s DMT experiences are the same. When we engage in discussions such as these, we each tend to assume that everyone else experiences DMT in the same way that we do. I’m not convinced this is the case.

For example, if someone always sees colorful geometric patterns and little else, he would likely be very skeptical about the fanciful stories of hyperspace, communication and interaction with entities, etc. Someone who experiences dream-like sequences of his childhood and other past events might not consider “merging with the universe” to be very plausible. Someone who sees elves, jesters, snakes, jaguars, and other archetypes might find it hard to accept that others see alien cities (and by alien, I don’t mean “space alien” – I mean “incomprehensibly strange and beyond the capacity of the mind to create).

It is possible for some people to have DMT experiences that pass essentially all “reality tests” that can be applied, within the limits of the brief time of an experience and the astonished mental state during an experience. Skepticism, doubt, and disbelief among those who haven’t had such experiences is understandable.

 

[Citta]

I must point out (as I’m sure you knew I might) that apart from crazy subjective experiences, there are no other reasons to assume that the “consensus reality” experience is anything more than… more than… what?

Hehe, I saw you coming man! And as usual, I must point out that this is another (interesting) metaphysical/philosophical/semantic discussion that doesn't change the fact that people can hallucinate things into existence that are not really there. Again, the gnome in the shed example of mine. I have a hard time seeing your "consensus reality" argument really constituting a real argument at all, except for perhaps giving you some semantic comfort that your DMT experiences might be something more. And sure, they might, but nothing points to this.

And now I fear we will repeat "Neuroscience and the self" all over again, and just circle wank eacothers metaphysical cocks for an eternity, not really adding anything to the determination of these phenomena really ocurring outside drug addled brains or not

 

[gibran2]

I dont think we can conclude whether or not the DMT experience is simply an aberration of brain chemistry until we have a full knowledge of the brains chemistry.Till then, both opinions remain simply that, opinions.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. To say that a DMT experience is simply the result of the brain interacting with a drug is like saying that the movement of an automobile is the result of a foot on a pedal. It’s true, but there’s much more to it.

A car won’t go without a foot pressing a pedal, but there’s nothing special about feet or pedals that has anything at all to do with what really makes a car go.

In the same way, a mind won’t travel to another realm without an appropriate drug and a brain, but there may be nothing special about drugs or brains that has anything to do with what really moves a mind to a different realm.

 

[Citta]

Again, this is not much different from "God of the gaps", gibran2. Why do you assume there is more to the DMT experience, when nothing in our knowledge of the universe implies this? It MIGHT of course be possible, but there is no reason to assume it is in light of all current knowledge. To start taking in supernatural explanations seems to me as wishful thinking.

 

[smokerx]

Another point I wanted to make is that not everyone’s DMT experiences are the same. When we engage in discussions such as these, we each tend to assume that everyone else experiences DMT in the same way that we do. I’m not convinced this is the case.

Thank you for point this out Gibran2. In chemical world its simple, if for example any human take Potassium Cyanide you just die. There is no doubt about it. You take KCN and thats it. Simple chemistry right? So why is it not so simple with DMT? Even the same person has different experiences every time you take DMT.

Ok maybe that example was not perfect but I guess I made my point so please DO NOT try KCN you will most definitely die instantly

 

[tele]

What I like very much about DMT, is that the "trip" is each time different. Altough there are some similarities sometimes. Just like exploring our inner universe, it's endless and never gets old!

 

[Citta]

Another point I wanted to make is that not everyone’s DMT experiences are the same. When we engage in discussions such as these, we each tend to assume that everyone else experiences DMT in the same way that we do. I’m not convinced this is the case.

Thank you for point this out Gibran2. In chemical world its simple, if for example any human take Potassium Cyanide you just die. There is no doubt about it. You take KCN and thats it. Simple chemistry right? So why is it not so simple with DMT? Even the same person has different experiences every time you take DMT.

Ok maybe that example was not perfect but I guess I made my point so please DO NOT try KCN you will most definitely die instantly

Because Potassium Cyanide inhibits cellular respiration, whereas DMT acts on the central nervous system, thus changing the individual consciousness of the person taking it, and this change will again be dependent on the individual psyche of the one that takes the drug. DMT acts on the same receptors in all of us, but since we have individual psyches the change in consciousness will be personal.

 

[gibran2]

Again, this is not much different from "God of the gaps", gibran2. Why do you assume there is more to the DMT experience, when nothing in our knowledge of the universe implies this? It MIGHT of course be possible, but there is no reason to assume it is in light of all current knowledge. To start taking in supernatural explanations seems to me as wishful thinking.

If we were in the year 1400 or so, and we were debating geocentrism vs. heliocentrism, you would be strenuously arguing in favor of geocentrism. You would point out what seemed very obvious – the Earth is stationary, you don’t feel it moving. The idea that it might be moving around the sun at thousands of miles per hour would seem preposterous! You’d conclude your argument by saying “in light of all current knowledge, there is no reason to believe that the Earth revolves around the Sun”.

The problem with this argument is the assumption that current knowledge has any bearing at all on the truth or falsehood of a proposition. Whether or not “hyperspace” realms are “real” has nothing to do with current knowledge, unless current knowledge is already sufficient to prove the claim true or false. And since it isn’t, what difference does current knowledge make in this discussion?

 

[jamie]

Again, this is not much different from "God of the gaps", gibran2. Why do you assume there is more to the DMT experience, when nothing in our knowledge of the universe implies this? It MIGHT of course be possible, but there is no reason to assume it is in light of all current knowledge. To start taking in supernatural explanations seems to me as wishful thinking.

There is some bias there I think. Maybe alot of YOUR experience implies there is nothing more to it..but that is not even most peoples experience I dont think. Look at the amazon..look at the traditional use of these things..there is alot of people out there whos experiences taken at face value would imply there is more going on. Entire cultures use these thins do perform tasks such as seeing the future, the past and diagnosing illness. I am not sayin that all of these people are actaully doing these things..yet they are claiming to do these things and so far science has not demonstrated that they are not..so why would we assume otherwise?