Is this common on DMT? TIHKAL paragraph

[Mars Man 233]

(with 150 mg harmaline, 80 mg DMT [20 min]) "At just about an hour into it there was a rapid onset intoxication with some staggers and difficult walking. During the next half hour, there were closed-eye visuals along with nausea and a severe depression. I turned on all the lights in the room for security, although I do not like bright lights. I considered calling a friend on the phone, but then I realized that nothing could reassure me at this point. Intellectually I knew that I was safe, but psychologically there was overwhelming loss of self worth and a feeling of despair. This was a sever ego-smashing experience which might have been diagnosed as psychosis if a psychiatrist had been present. The effects lasted longer than anticipated, with a gradual return to normality at the fifth hour, and an hour later I slept. Despite the negative experience, the next day I realized that I had viewed many aspects of my life with extraordinary clarity and insight, and as a result of this experience I intend to try to change several of these personal flaws."

Erowid Online Books : "TIHKAL" - #13 HARMALINE

Entry #13 HARMALINE from TiHKAL by Alexander & Ann Shulgin.

www.erowid.org

I saw it when reading about DMT. How often does this happen?

 

[NNDMT]

50 mg harmaline, 80 mg DMT sounds like a high dosage for inexperienced traveler. Also set and settings are very important, state of mind etc. Harmaline buffers the DMT experience, but 80mg in itself is somewhat a high dose for inexperienced traveler.

 

[Eliyahu]

Harmaline without harmine or THH involved can be pretty darn severe IMO.

 

[VoidTraveler]

Yes, that's perfectly normal and can happen. I had the exact same thing happen to me last weekend on a 200mcg dose of LSD. There were beautiful OEVs/CEVs but I slipped into a very negative state and had a very uncomfortable trip. There were a few moments where I was extremely scared, depressed and at one point I cried pretty loudly into my pillow(so my trip partner wouldn't hear it).

It took me two full days to recover from that trip but like the TiKHAL entry I have reviewed many aspects of my life and started taking action to fix those things.

Bad trips can and will happen, especially if you're becoming more and more experienced. My first few trips were amazing and were very insightful but all of them were happy trips. I've had two trips that I consider 'bad trips', they were hell to sit through but provided me with more insights than happy trips.

 

[Mars Man 233]

Harmaline without harmine or THH involved can be pretty darn severe IMO.

CAn you tell tell me why? I don't know much about Harmaline and Harmine and TTH

 

[Mars Man 233]

50 mg harmaline, 80 mg DMT sounds like a high dosage for inexperienced traveler. Also set and settings are very important, state of mind etc. Harmaline buffers the DMT experience, but 80mg in itself is somewhat a high dose for inexperienced traveler.

The person who wrote the TIHKAL has done lots of psychedelics. I think the book is about his report on the drugs he tried.

 

[Mars Man 233]

Yes, that's perfectly normal and can happen. I had the exact same thing happen to me last weekend on a 200mcg dose of LSD. There were beautiful OEVs/CEVs but I slipped into a very negative state and had a very uncomfortable trip. There were a few moments where I was extremely scared, depressed and at one point I cried pretty loudly into my pillow(so my trip partner wouldn't hear it).

It took me two full days to recover from that trip but like the TiKHAL entry I have reviewed many aspects of my life and started taking action to fix those things.

Bad trips can and will happen, especially if you're becoming more and more experienced. My first few trips were amazing and were very insightful but all of them were happy trips. I've had two trips that I consider 'bad trips', they were hell to sit through but provided me with more insights than happy trips.

Why would you take it if you know this can happen?

 

[Vodsel]

Why would you take it if you know this can happen?

Why would you keep driving if you know you can crash, or climbing if you know you can fall, or having sex if you know there's STDs, or eating if you can choke?

And in the case of psychedelics the analogy is not farfetched, on the contrary... a negative trip, unlike a crash, a fall or an STD, can be a pretty valuable experience.

I don't think we should be in it for the pleasure.

 

[fairbanks]

First off, TiHKAL was not written by an in-experienced tripper lmao. It was written by the Shulgins and is a sequel to their first book PiHKAL both of which were mainly psychedelic trip reports.

At the dose of harmaline and DMT he had, it's understandable why he had a difficult time. That's basically like a full on ayahuasca admixture trip minus all the plant material and THH. The shulgins were synthesizing chemicals and using them, alexander shulgin was a chemist not a botanist. If he would have done real ayahuasca instead of the synthetic chems maybe he would have had a better experience. You aren't even supposed to be walking around with that much harmaline in you. Regardless, the effect of ego smashing that he talks about makes sense and is very common from ayahuasca admixtures.

 

[Mars Man 233]

Why would you take it if you know this can happen?

Why would you keep driving if you know you can crash, or climbing if you know you can fall, or having sex if you know there's STDs, or eating if you can choke?

And in the case of psychedelics the analogy is not farfetched, on the contrary... a negative trip, unlike a crash, a fall or an STD, can be a pretty valuable experience.

I don't think we should be in it for the pleasure.

You would only be in a car crash if the other driver is reckless or if you're a bad driver, and if you are you shouldn't be driving. Rock climbers have things to attach to the rock so they wont fall. STDs can be tested and there are condoms to protect you. You can do all those things without a problem if you do it safely.

 

[Vodsel]

You would only be in a car crash if the other driver is reckless or if you're a bad driver, and if you are you shouldn't be driving. Rock climbers have things to attach to the rock so they wont fall. STDs can be tested and there are condoms to protect you. You can do all those things without a problem if you do it safely.

Disregard the analogies if you want. As I said, an unpleasant outcome with a psychedelic can easily be an experience worth going through. And truth is, nothing really worth it is free of risks. Often the higher the reward, the higher the risk. And the trickier to ensure a good outcome when you try.

There's many ways to increase safety when ingesting a psychedelic. But even if you are careful and do things properly and in the right time, emotional surges and bad trips do happen. You have to accept that they might be not just eventually inevitable, but also important. I've seen a few people grow admirably after integrating a tough trip, and if all they had was eye candy and ecstasy they would probably be smaller than they are now.

Psychedelics often give you what you need, not what you want. And difficult experiences are not a plague to avoid, are a chance. You won't look forward to have one, but they are in the game, and we have to accept that.

 

[Mars Man 233]

First off, TiHKAL was not written by an in-experienced tripper lmao. It was written by the Shulgins and is a sequel to their first book PiHKAL both of which were mainly psychedelic trip reports.

At the dose of harmaline and DMT he had, it's understandable why he had a difficult time. That's basically like a full on ayahuasca admixture trip minus all the plant material and THH. The shulgins were synthesizing chemicals and using them, alexander shulgin was a chemist not a botanist. If he would have done real ayahuasca instead of the synthetic chems maybe he would have had a better experience. You aren't even supposed to be walking around with that much harmaline in you. Regardless, the effect of ego smashing that he talks about makes sense and is very common from ayahuasca admixtures.

Does the admixtures change how DMT is then? Is there a wrong and right way to take DMT? and why?

 

[Mars Man 233]

You would only be in a car crash if the other driver is reckless or if you're a bad driver, and if you are you shouldn't be driving. Rock climbers have things to attach to the rock so they wont fall. STDs can be tested and there are condoms to protect you. You can do all those things without a problem if you do it safely.

Disregard the analogies if you want. As I said, an unpleasant outcome with a psychedelic can easily be an experience worth going through. And truth is, nothing really worth it is free of risks. Often the higher the reward, the higher the risk. And the trickier to ensure a good outcome when you try.

There's many ways to increase safety when ingesting a psychedelic. But even if you are careful and do things properly and in the right time, emotional surges and bad trips do happen. You have to accept that they might be not just eventually inevitable, but also important. I've seen a few people grow admirably after integrating a tough trip, and if all they had was eye candy and ecstasy they would probably be smaller than they are now.

Psychedelics often give you what you need, not what you want. And difficult experiences are not a plague to avoid, are a chance.

SO you're saying it's good to have a bad experience so you can learn from it? Like failing an entrance exam because you wasn't going to do well in college anyway?

 

[Vodsel]

SO you're saying it's good to have a bad experience so you can learn from it? Like failing an entrance exam because you wasn't going to do well in college anyway?

I was replying to your comment to VoidTraveler, where you asked

Why would you take it if you know this can happen?

And IMO, the risks of having a difficult experience should NOT be a reason to refrain from trying. We'll hopefully learn and prepare and do everything our best, but psychedelic drugs can take you to a tough ride regardless. We have to acknowledge that difficult moments can and do happen. And they can be very valuable.

To put it simply, I think you need to contemplate bad experiences in order to face psychedelics properly, no matter how careful you are. And think about using them well when they show up, instead of letting them keep you from exploring.

 

[fairbanks]

First off, TiHKAL was not written by an in-experienced tripper lmao. It was written by the Shulgins and is a sequel to their first book PiHKAL both of which were mainly psychedelic trip reports.

At the dose of harmaline and DMT he had, it's understandable why he had a difficult time. That's basically like a full on ayahuasca admixture trip minus all the plant material and THH. The shulgins were synthesizing chemicals and using them, alexander shulgin was a chemist not a botanist. If he would have done real ayahuasca instead of the synthetic chems maybe he would have had a better experience. You aren't even supposed to be walking around with that much harmaline in you. Regardless, the effect of ego smashing that he talks about makes sense and is very common from ayahuasca admixtures.

Does the admixtures change how DMT is then? Is there a wrong and right way to take DMT? and why?

It most certainly does. Harmaline is a hallucinogenic itself at high doses. It's one of the beta-carbolines of the ayahuasca vine. When this is taken with DMT called ayahuasca admixture, the trip can be quite strong.

I think it's wrong and risky to take synthesized DMT and Harmaline together. You should be drinking ayahuasca admixture before doing anything like that. If you're gonna take synthesized DMT then just smoke it as freebase, that's the right way to do it.

 

[fairbanks]

SO you're saying it's good to have a bad experience so you can learn from it? Like failing an entrance exam because you wasn't going to do well in college anyway?

I was replying to your comment to VoidTraveler, where you asked

Why would you take it if you know this can happen?

And IMO, the risks of having a difficult experience should NOT be a reason to refrain from trying. We'll hopefully learn and prepare and do everything our best, but psychedelic drugs can take you to a tough ride regardless. We have to acknowledge that difficult moments can and do happen. And they can be very valuable.

To put it simply, I think you need to contemplate bad experiences in order to face psychedelics properly, no matter how careful you are. And think about using them well when they show up, instead of letting them keep you from exploring.

havent you hi-jacked this thread enough already? We know bad trips can teach you a lot, shut up already... Mars is actually right in questioning whether to take this combo. Taking synthesized harmaline is a risky sport and you can overdose causing hypertensive crisis.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

We know bad trips can teach you a lot, shut up already...

:!:
Take a deep breath, check the attitude and remind yourself where you are.

Taking synthesized harmaline is a risky sport and you can overdose causing hypertensive crisis.

Care to provide a source for this (and explain why you used the modifier "synthesized" and why you allege that human-synthed harmalas are different from plant-synthed harmalas)?

 

[Vodsel]

havent you hi-jacked this thread enough already? We know bad trips can teach you a lot, shut up already... Mars is actually right in questioning whether to take this combo. Taking synthesized harmaline is a risky sport and you can overdose causing hypertensive crisis.

I was answering to a comment by MarsMan233 that was on topic and relevant. I am not arguing anything regarding the effects of harmaline, nor willing to hijack anything. I am just replying to him, I didn't say anything to you.

But thank you for your nice manners.

And you suggest "respect" under your avatar?

 

[Eliyahu]

Harmaline without harmine or THH involved can be pretty darn severe IMO.

CAn you tell tell me why? I don't know much about Harmaline and Harmine and TTH

IMO the MAOI part of ayahuasca/pharmahuasca is like the window that you look through and the dmt is like the scene your looking at...

With ayahuasca "the window" is very clear. When you start removing components then IMO the window becomes fuzzy or obscured in certain ways.

IMO Straight DMT without harmala gives a completely different effect than oral DMT

 

[fairbanks]

Sorry if I'm coming off rude. Just had a frustrating day.

I'm not using a modifier word that is exactly what Alexander Shulgin used. Synthesized Harmaline. Erowid Online Books : "TIHKAL" - #13 HARMALINE

It's just seemed off topic to keep explaining why bad trips are learning experiences.