Is this common on DMT? TIHKAL paragraph

[dreamer042]

First off, TiHKAL was not written by an in-experienced tripper lmao. It was written by the Shulgins and is a sequel to their first book PiHKAL both of which were mainly psychedelic trip reports.

At the dose of harmaline and DMT he had, it's understandable why he had a difficult time. That's basically like a full on ayahuasca admixture trip minus all the plant material and THH. The shulgins were synthesizing chemicals and using them, alexander shulgin was a chemist not a botanist. If he would have done real ayahuasca instead of the synthetic chems maybe he would have had a better experience. You aren't even supposed to be walking around with that much harmaline in you. Regardless, the effect of ego smashing that he talks about makes sense and is very common from ayahuasca admixtures.

Actually Sasha and Anne have taken ayahuasca and they said they both a terrible experience on it as well. I've been trying to find the source for where I read/heard that. I'm fairly sure it was in the Ask The Shulgin's Talk they gave for Palenque Norte in 2006. I'll keep searching and post a link when I do find it.

 

[Vodsel]

Sorry if I'm coming off rude. Just had a frustrating day.

I'm not using a modifier word that is exactly what Alexander Shulgin used. Synthesized Harmaline. Erowid Online Books : "TIHKAL" - #13 HARMALINE

It's just seemed off topic to keep explaining why bad trips are learning experiences.

It's ok, all good.

I'm sorry if I was generalizing the topic. You know it's difficult to not reply to a direct question inside of a thread, and it seemed related.

[/OFFTOPIC] then.

Harmaline.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Sorry if I'm coming off rude. Just had a frustrating day.

I'm not using a modifier word that is exactly what Alexander Shulgin used. Synthesized Harmaline. Erowid Online Books : "TIHKAL" - #13 HARMALINE

It's just seemed off topic to keep explaining why bad trips are learning experiences.

Yes...and yet you seem to be stating that synthesized harmaline is worse for you than "natural" harmaline. Why is that?

Also, a source for the hypertensive crisis claim you made would be nice.

And fwiw, I don't even feel 150mg of harmaline when taken orally.

 

[Michal_R]

Hi Fairbanks,

...If he would have done real ayahuasca instead of the synthetic chems maybe he would have had a better experience...

I wouldn´t say so... I don´t think we can argue that "synthetic" substances produce more bad trips or worse experience than "natural" substances - which is what the above quotation IMO implies.

I left the "synthetic vs. natural" debate bahind after I realized that I probably would not be able to tell the difference between a DMT synthesized by a chemist and a ´super-clean´ DMT extracted from a plant material.

Some people who used synthesized Psilocybin actually prefer it over full-spectrum Mushrooms, as it supposedly gives a "clearer" and less sedated experience...

 

[fairbanks]

First off, TiHKAL was not written by an in-experienced tripper lmao. It was written by the Shulgins and is a sequel to their first book PiHKAL both of which were mainly psychedelic trip reports.

At the dose of harmaline and DMT he had, it's understandable why he had a difficult time. That's basically like a full on ayahuasca admixture trip minus all the plant material and THH. The shulgins were synthesizing chemicals and using them, alexander shulgin was a chemist not a botanist. If he would have done real ayahuasca instead of the synthetic chems maybe he would have had a better experience. You aren't even supposed to be walking around with that much harmaline in you. Regardless, the effect of ego smashing that he talks about makes sense and is very common from ayahuasca admixtures.

Actually Sasha and Anne have taken ayahuasca and they said they both a terrible experience on it as well. I've been trying to find the source for where I read/heard that. I'm fairly sure it was in the Ask The Shulgin's Talk they gave for Palenque Norte in 2006. I'll keep searching and post a link when I do find it.

I vaguely remember this as well. Like I said before though, in regards to the OP, taking synthetic harmaline with synthetic DMT orally is a bit risky if you're not absolutely sure what you're doing.

 

[fairbanks]

Yes...and yet you seem to be stating that synthesized harmaline is worse for you than "natural" harmaline. Why is that?

Also, a source for the hypertensive crisis claim you made would be nice.

And fwiw, I don't even feel 150mg of harmaline when taken orally.

I'm not saying synthetic is worse than natural but it's definitely a lot riskier as far dosing goes.

Here's a direct source report of a woman going to the hospital after OD'ing on syrian rue.

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[Eliyahu]

According to this syrian rue can give hypertensive crisis...

If you take a rediculous amount... (100grams). I doubt any one would normaly take so much..

http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+7645

 

[Michal_R]

... Here's a direct source report of a woman going to the hospital after OD'ing on syrian rue... http://1.usa.gov/QKdUAv

Poor woman...

A 41-year-old female prepared a hot drink by boiling approximately 100 g of P. harmala seeds in water

That´s like 30x more than ´normal´ dose

 

[fairbanks]

It's proof that harmaline, harmala, THH, can cause hypertensive crisis. It's a central nervous system stimulant, you can obviously get hyper tension. If you're taking synthetic harmaline and make a small mistake on dosage that can be the deciding factor between a good and deadly trip.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I'm not saying synthetic is worse than natural but it's definitely a lot riskier as far dosing goes.

My question is still why? On what grounds are you repeatedly making this assertion? What dosages are you talking of when you talk about a "little dosage mistake" causing hypertensive crisis? And what studies have actually shown comparisons of synthetic vs extracted harmalas? Or do you actually mean extracted?

Also, citing a case where a woman took 100g (which is closer to 20-30x the normal dose) to back up claims of hypertensive crisis is rather misleading. As has been pointed out in a number of threads, you can OD on water if you take enough of it, but that hardly means that is normal or the normal effects that one must be conscious of. If taken in amounts even remotely resembling a standard dose, this claim of risking hypertensive crisis is off base, afaik.

 

[Mars Man 233]

Harmaline without harmine or THH involved can be pretty darn severe IMO.

CAn you tell tell me why? I don't know much about Harmaline and Harmine and TTH

IMO the MAOI part of ayahuasca/pharmahuasca is like the window that you look through and the dmt is like the scene your looking at...

With ayahuasca "the window" is very clear. When you start removing components then IMO the window becomes fuzzy or obscured in certain ways.

IMO Straight DMT without harmala gives a completely different effect than oral DMT

Are you more likely to have a better experience with all 3 Harmaline Harmine THH than without them?

 

[Michal_R]

...If you're taking synthetic harmaline and make a small mistake on dosage that can be the deciding factor between a good and deadly trip...

The woman wasn´t ingesting any "synthetic" harmaline, was she? She ingested a fully "natural" material...

 

[Mars Man 233]

SO you're saying it's good to have a bad experience so you can learn from it? Like failing an entrance exam because you wasn't going to do well in college anyway?

I was replying to your comment to VoidTraveler, where you asked

Why would you take it if you know this can happen?

And IMO, the risks of having a difficult experience should NOT be a reason to refrain from trying. We'll hopefully learn and prepare and do everything our best, but psychedelic drugs can take you to a tough ride regardless. We have to acknowledge that difficult moments can and do happen. And they can be very valuable.

To put it simply, I think you need to contemplate bad experiences in order to face psychedelics properly, no matter how careful you are. And think about using them well when they show up, instead of letting them keep you from exploring.

Well this is not how I operate buddy. I avoid bad times whenever I can.

 

[fairbanks]

Harmala, harmaline, THH alkaloids are central nervous system stimulants. You can overdose on them. I'm sorry if that was a bad source in comparison, there are many other OD reports at even smaller doses. Please research this before you say that it's okay to be lackadaisical about taking synthetic harmaline. It is nothing like a regular DMT experience like the OP was asking.

 

[Mars Man 233]

First off, TiHKAL was not written by an in-experienced tripper lmao. It was written by the Shulgins and is a sequel to their first book PiHKAL both of which were mainly psychedelic trip reports.

At the dose of harmaline and DMT he had, it's understandable why he had a difficult time. That's basically like a full on ayahuasca admixture trip minus all the plant material and THH. The shulgins were synthesizing chemicals and using them, alexander shulgin was a chemist not a botanist. If he would have done real ayahuasca instead of the synthetic chems maybe he would have had a better experience. You aren't even supposed to be walking around with that much harmaline in you. Regardless, the effect of ego smashing that he talks about makes sense and is very common from ayahuasca admixtures.

Does the admixtures change how DMT is then? Is there a wrong and right way to take DMT? and why?

It most certainly does. Harmaline is a hallucinogenic itself at high doses. It's one of the beta-carbolines of the ayahuasca vine. When this is taken with DMT called ayahuasca admixture, the trip can be quite strong.

I think it's wrong and risky to take synthesized DMT and Harmaline together. You should be drinking ayahuasca admixture before doing anything like that. If you're gonna take synthesized DMT then just smoke it as freebase, that's the right way to do it.

But does the admixtures change your experience?

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Please research this before you say that it's okay to be lackadaisical about taking synthetic harmaline. It is nothing like a regular DMT experience like the OP was asking.

Please cite sources for the claims you are making about synthetic harmalas. Do you mean extracted harmalas? Either way, please state at what doses you are talking about minor amounts being potentially fatal.

The sort of posts you are making at the moment are pushing you close to a vacation from the Nexus. If you do not have evidence for the claims you are making, please admit as much and stop making them. The sort of misinformation you are currently spreading is antithetical to the discourse we seek to promote.

 

[dreamer042]

Well this is not how I operate buddy. I avoid bad times whenever I can.

Then I'd say psychedelics are probably not for you.

Probably best to stick to MDMA.

 

[Mars Man 233]

Harmala, harmaline, THH alkaloids are central nervous system stimulants. You can overdose on them. I'm sorry if that was a bad source in comparison, there are many other OD reports at even smaller doses. Please research this before you say that it's okay to be lackadaisical about taking synthetic harmaline. It is nothing like a regular DMT experience like the OP was asking.

So you don't like it because you might over dose? What you measured out the right amount? Then where's the problem?

 

[fairbanks]

Please research this before you say that it's okay to be lackadaisical about taking synthetic harmaline. It is nothing like a regular DMT experience like the OP was asking.

Please cite sources for the claims you are making about synthetic harmalas. Do you mean extracted harmalas? Either way, please state at what doses you are talking about minor amounts being potentially fatal.

The sort of posts you are making at the moment are pushing you close to a vacation from the Nexus. If you do not have evidence for the claims you are making, please admit as much and stop making them. The sort of misinformation you are currently spreading is antithetical to the discourse we seek to promote.

NO I don't mean extracted. The OP cited mr. shulgins synthesized harmaline. All I was saying is to be careful b/c you can overdose and it's a lot easier when dealing with mgs. I'm not saying harmaline is dangerous in and of itself.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

NO I don't mean extracted. The OP cited mr. shulgins synthesized harmaline. All I was saying is to be careful b/c you can overdose and it's a lot easier when dealing with mgs. I'm not saying harmaline is dangerous in and of itself.

So what are you saying? You have repeatedly stated that synthetic harmaline is dangerous, yet you have not stated at what doses (or according to what sources). Extracted harmalas are also measured in mg, what is your point? I think you do not have nearly as good a grasp on this as you think you do and you are making false assertions without realizing it. In case you were unaware, synthetic and extracted harmaline are identical molecules.