Justice has been served

[jamie]

"The blind anti-americanism it seems to spark here is TOTALLY out of proportion."

I keep getting the feeling you have some bias towards acceptance of the reality that america has done some really fucked up things. Noone here has spoken of anti americanism. If you feel that accpepting certain truths about the US government is anti-american than that is you're thing I guess, but I dont see how usefull it is in the end.

 

[polytrip]

"The blind anti-americanism it seems to spark here is TOTALLY out of proportion."

I keep getting the feeling you have some bias towards acceptance of the reality that america has done some really fucked up things. Noone here has spoken of anti americanism. If you feel that accpepting certain truths about the US government is anti-american than that is you're thing I guess, but I dont see how usefull it is in the end.

No, i am VERY much against america's foreign policy. I hate western hypocrisy when it comes to israel, and other affairs. I hate all the injust wars that have been taking place.

If you say that osama's death is a severely unjust act, i think you've lost touch with reality though.

Do you mean that any government should just sit by and do nothing if someone slaughters thousands of their citizens? Do you think ANY government could ever accept such a thing?

Then why not accept the slaughtering of bin-laden as well?

Why not sit high up in a tower somewhere and and simply accept every slaughtering that takes place anywhere?

Bin-ladens death is a minor event. Making a big crime against humanity out of it is simply losing every proportion out of sight. And yes, if the death of thousands of americans is less reason for anger than the death of the man who caused it, i think the diagnosis of blind hate against america is justified.

And ofcourse i would also want bush and blair to face some international tribunal one day.

 

[endlessness]

Polytrip. I never thought bin laden / al qaeda were reasonable.

My point is, given the situation we already have, what do we do? What about the trillion+ dollars spent in the wars, dont you think it would have been betterspent elsewhere such as education/sustainable development/etc, regardless of the negotiation with al qaeda or not ? What kind of effects would it have to the world? How would the arguments of terrorists be if western governments would pull the plug on support to israel?

This question can be asked every single day, because every day these governments are making the decision regarding how to deal with "terror" by allocating resources as they see fit, through UN council decisions, foreign policy, etc (but of course not to mention these governments can also be defined as "terrorists" too). I dont think the problem can be solved tomorrow but Im suggesting that, knowing it will take long to fix the shit, better start now, no? Given X happens, we have many options, and the options being used are the ones that are causing more destruction.

Again, you are using the hitler argument, which we could talk about but first of all one thing to notice is that with hitler it was a completely different situation. Hitler invaded other countries occupying with his army + killed millions and millions, and he represented a whole country (and was a target that could be 'realistically' fought. Al qaeda and other terrorist organizations are losely-knit, spread across the globe, impossible to find and in the process of active fight against it is creating more new generations of extremists, its obviously counter productive.

Seems most people here grasp the concept when talking about drug laws and fighting cartels and so on, and how they create more harm than help, but for some reason you dont extend the analogy to how war/fight on terrorism works? I wonder why

"The blind anti-americanism it seems to spark here is TOTALLY out of proportion."

I keep getting the feeling you have some bias towards acceptance of the reality that america has done some really fucked up things. Noone here has spoken of anti americanism. If you feel that accpepting certain truths about the US government is anti-american than that is you're thing I guess, but I dont see how usefull it is in the end.

No, i am VERY much against america's foreign policy. I hate western hypocrisy when it comes to israel, and other affairs. I hate all the injust wars that have been taking place.

If you say that osama's death is a severely unjust act, i think you've lost touch with reality though.

Do you mean that any government should just sit by and do nothing if someone slaughters thousands of their citizens? Do you think ANY government could ever accept such a thing?

Then why not accept the slaughtering of bin-laden as well?

Why not sit high up in a tower somewhere and and simply accept every slaughtering that takes place anywhere?

Bin-ladens death is a minor event. Making a big crime against humanity out of it is simply losing every proportion out of sight. And yes, if the death of thousands of americans is less reason for anger than the death of the man who caused it, i think the diagnosis of blind hate against america is justified.

And ofcourse i would also want bush and blair to face some international tribunal one day.

Its not like binladen was cleanly killed in an isolated bubble without any consequences. To get to the assassination, the USA/CIA/western governments had to resort to (and turn a blind eye on) torture and human rights abuse and loss of other inocent lives and what not. Was it worth it? Then is it worth to invade USA / UK / etc right now, to do the same to reach bush and blair and make them pay for their crimes? Is that the best route? And if not, why the double standards?

 

[polytrip]

Yes, valid points endlessness.

So i suppose that the leaders of the world should all read nelson mandela´s autobiography to find out how to get out of such a gridlocked situation.(they started, no they started/they have to make a first move, no they have to make a first move)

It´s been done before.

 

[jamie]

I think endless basically summed up my point. There are no heros here. Not the US government, Bush, Obama or anyone else. This was a war based on government interests with innocent people caught up on both sides. There is nothing patriotic about any of it, so in that sense being pro or anti american in relation to this thing seems a stupid and irrelevant diversion from what is really going on. The US government deserves to be right up there alongside the al-qaida they helped create, and a whole lot of people need to wisen up and stop believing every single damn thing the government feeds to them. Americanan citizens are NOT the american government, so dont need to be lumped in with the government in some anti-american generalization. Most governments are corrupt, that is nothing new.

 

[corpus callosum]

I must say Im liking this thread alot, but its getting juurrst a little heated now!

I think trying to draw direct parallels between the rise of Nazism and the issues relating to Al-Qaeda and todays woes are problematic.The Versailles Treaty was overly punitive but the victors always establish the 'rules' for the peace.But further insults were added to this, in the eyes of the German people, when the Rhineland was occupied by France when the Germans couldnt deliver on the reparations the victors sought.Plus there is the issue of the competing factions of the time in Germany especially with the possible ascent of communism there, the incompetence of the Social Democrats, and then the issue of a de-mobbed militia (the SA, or BrownShirts) who had fought valiantly for their Country and felt the sting of their defeat.The SA ie militarily trained unemployed vets formed the initial tier of the Nazi party but we must remember that the Nazis won via an electoral process ie received a mandate from the German people.This proves that any nation, when humiliated enough, can subscribe to the most incomprehensible of ideologies.

The term 'Islamic Fundamentalist' needs clarifying by those who use it.There are many many peaceful Muslims who are fundamentalist but have a correct understanding of the religion and reject the ideology of Al-Qaeda with regards to violence but the people of the West would not be able to distinguish their beliefs from their appearance and Im fairly sure they would be regarded from their flowing beards, Arab dress etc as inherently militant.True enough, Polytrips assertions about Islamic Fundamentalists seeking to kill any Muslim who doesnt subscribe to identical beliefs as they themselves do is correct but only in a limited fashion.This perception has been unduly magnified by the actions of Al-Zarqawi in Iraq who by all accounts fulfills the definition of psychopath in his attempts to foment an all-out war between the Shia and Sunni peoples in Iraq, but most people are not aware that he was censured by Al Zawahiri and Bin Laden for his excessive partisanship.The other place where this excess goes on is in Pakistan where such divisions have existed since well before 9/11 and was to some degree tolerated by the ISI in Pakistan by its protegee militant outfits who were fighting in Kashmir.

Very few Muslims fear Al Qaeda; most detest them rather than fear them.In terms of excesses between Muslims, and the issues between the Islamic World and Western foreign policy and which is greater then I think more people have suffered by far in the aggro between the West and the Islamic world.Im not keeping a tally but straight away over half a million kids died in Iraq due to sanctions, and I dont think Muslim on Muslim factional violence has reached quite this level since 1990.

We should also make a clear distinction between American policy and American citizenry, with the latter having little sway directly over the former.The party in charge may change but its requirement for energy stability and ensuring its flow doesnt, and it doesnt seem that the allegiance to Israel, despite the injustice of the Palestine issue, changes much either.

 

[a1pha]

I must say Im liking this thread alot, but its getting juurrst a little heated now!

Me too! While I see it dividing a few here, I enjoy the differing well thought out perspectives. And thank you corpus callosum for chiming in when you have. You seem to have some understanding of the Islamic perspective which is most valuable.

You spoke of the Islamic Scholars in a previous post. What do you understand as the end game? The creation of a free Palestine? If so, how in the world do we achieve this? Break ties with Israel? This doesn't seem possible. I for one am 100% in favor of providing a Palestine to these people, but I don't see how we get there... which means never ending violence?

 

[polytrip]

I must say Im liking this thread alot, but its getting juurrst a little heated now!

Me too! While I see it dividing a few here, I enjoy the differing well thought out perspectives. And thank you corpus callosum for chiming in when you have. You seem to have some understanding of the Islamic perspective which is most valuable.

You spoke of the Islamic Scholars in a previous post. What do you understand as the end game? The creation of a free Palestine? If so, how in the world do we achieve this? Break ties with Israel? This doesn't seem possible. I for one am 100% in favor of providing a Palestine to these people, but I don't see how we get there... which means never ending violence?

-We start by saying to the extremists on both sides: we understand that you need time to explain to your supporters why you suddenly change course radically and 1-for hamas, are willing to accept the state of israel and 2-for the right wing israeli's, are willing to accept a palestinian state.
-We humiliate neither of the two sides. So first we hold secret talks behind closed doors. We give both party's the time to explain this to their supporters so they won't have to lose their credibility.
-We don't make too big demands immediately but we ask initially for gestures, signs of good will.
-We are willing to accept that in heated debates that will take place, there will be drawbacks on both sides.
-We don't stop talks after the first incident takes place.

leaked documents about basically all the peacetalks up till now have revealed that till this moment every single round of talks have been basically about the same issues and thus far a basic sketch of wich i don't know the details exactly has been made repeatedly.

That means that both the palestinians and the israeli's know and up to a certain point even agree on what a palestinian state would look like, where it's borders lie, etc.

This means that both party's more or less know what they're supposed to do. But so far they have either lacked the courage to push through or they've let incidents make it impossible for them to do this.

I believe that in political terms this is called a "big elephant in the room": it's there, everybody knows it's there, but no-one talks about it.

 

[corpus callosum]

They say opinions are like assholes..... but I speak as a practising Muslim who has spent time in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Yemen (amongst other places related to this thread);I've met 'proper' militants from Lashkar-e-Toiba (behind Mumbai), the Taliban, Hezbollah and the Mehdi Army and Ive also lost relatives to US bombs in Afghanistan so these issues have had a direct bearing on me.

I dont think permanent peace is possible between the Islamic world and Israel; I also think that resolving this will not stop the issue of Islamic militancy as the next arena, in my opinion, will be Central Asia (Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Krygyzstan) as China, India, Russia and the US vie for influence and control of the gas and mineral reserves this area has.

The Arab Spring may herald positive changes as the corrupt leaders who have been allied to the West are deposed but this is not a guaranteed outcome.The drivers of militancy- corrupt leaders, emotions, injustice and a defective understanding of the religion- will always entice recruits to the cause but I think its prominence will ebb and flow.

As Muslims we need to look within ourselves rather than externalising our woes and blaming the West without reflecting on our own failings.The blueprint for success is to rectify ourselves as individuals first, a bottom-up approach rather than the opposite, and success will follow.We need to be mindful that the ends do not justify the means, any endeavour that is carried out must clearly lead to more benefits than the opposite, doubtful issues must be regarded as something to be avoided.I could go on at length about the finer theocratic points but I dont know how appropriate that would be for the Nexus.

 

[polytrip]

Why are you so sure that there NEVER will be a permanent peace between israel and the islamic world?

 

[corpus callosum]

Polytrip-Heres a long post which I was 'timed-out' with so I posted the last post I did instead.But its reappeared and this gives a deeper analysis.The answer to your question is close to the end of this (long!) post.
So, whats the answer to the mess this world finds itself in?

They say opinions are like assholes.....but I speak as a practising Muslim who has spent time in many of the countries that are relevant to this thread, have met 'proper' militants and also lost some relatives to US bombs in Afghanistan so these issues have had a significant and direct effect on me.

Where to start.....

There are many facets to this, which extend beyond the issue of a Palestinian state, but this issue is the one which unites Muslims wherever they might be.There are issues which are clear and there are elements which fall into the 'grey' category and its the grey areas which tend to be focussed on by the militants, with 'clear' pronouncements being made by them about the grey areas.

Before proceeding, the following principles are sacrosanct in Islam:

1.The ends do not justify the means;

2.Only the Head of State has the right to declare Jihad- unless the country has been attacked requiring each citizen to defend themselves and their families/property;

3.Rebelling against the rulers is forbidden- unless they manifest 'clear Disbelief'-more on this later.

4.An action is only merited if the good it achieves outweighs the bad that may result;

5.Issues which are doubtful should be avoided so one doesnt burden themselves with 'sin', for want of a better word.


Osamas issues with the Royal Family of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia (KSA) in the early 90s were the following:

1.They were corrupt, nepotistic, profligate;

2.They had mismanaged the economy causing hardship to the people;

3.They spent vast amounts on US arms but still remained incapable of defending themselves and KSA;

4.They had committed 'Clear Disbelief' by legitimising the practise of usury in KSA;

5.They aid non-Muslims in their fight against Muslims (USA and Allies Vs Iraqi Moslems, and surprisingly, 'Godless Atheistic Communists' in Sth Yemen against the Militants of the North) whilst claiming to be the 'Defenders of the Lands of the Two Holy Mosques' (Mecca and Medina);

6.They had persuaded the Government Scholars to issue edicts legitimising the Oslo Peace Accords between Israel and the PLO (leaving the Palestinians with 22ish% of the land of Palestine and with no direct control of their own water supply) and the existence of US bases on KSA's soil, from which to attack Iraq (and possibly back-up israel and maybe even seize the oilwells of KSA);

7.The failiure of KSA to utilise leverage on the US with the supply of oil, and indeed ensuring the flow of cheap oil to them;

8.Suppressing the voices of dissent, raised in respone to points 1-7, of the Scholars and other prominent people.

On points 1-5, 7 and 8 he is correct; point 6 is a 'grey' area as a.peace with Israel is not anathema to Islam but the outcome of Oslo was decidedly unfair, and b.permanent bases of the USA in KSA is forbidden, but a temporary necessity can allow it.As it turned out, the US had exaggerated the threat posed by Iraq to KSA (hence validating Osamas position) but the question here is of the principle, not the actuality.

The correct approach for dealing with these grievances, Islamically speaking, is to offer sincere advice to the rulers to rectify themselves and to fear the Almighty in their conduct; if they do not respond then the one who has offered the advice has fulfilled his duty but has no right to rebel even if oppressed by the ruler, and this is due to the sacrosanct principles identified above.But much of Osamas criticisms are applicable, and this, coupled with the emotions these deficiencies in the rulers outlook generate in the people and the misinterpretation of Quranic verses which interpret specific rulings generally (and vice versa) is what leads to people espousing a radical ideology.

For example, one verse in the Quran states 'And slay the pagans wherever you might find them....';this was revealed at a particular time due to a particular event, but the militant ideology has interpreted this verse to apply beyond this particular circumstance or event.Other examples abound when the Militants seek to justfy their actions or position using religious texts (and edicts from Scholars of old).So it is a deficiency in the understanding of the religion which leads to their conduct but I personally can see how people can be drawn into such an outlook despite it being incorrect.

As Muslims we believe we get the leaders we deserve due to our own short-comings, and rectification of the self is the starting point for reaching a better state individually and as a community.A bottom-up approach is required, rather than trying to change things at the top.The Muslim world is a divided mess in part due to the actions of western powers but more so due to deficiencies in ourselves and things will not change until we as Muslims strive hard to return to the correct understanding and methodology.For Allah says 'The condition of the people will not change until they change what is within, the condition of their hearts'.

Long post, but I hope Ive conveyed where the AQ ideology, whilst having legitimate greivances, has transgressed the bounds in their actions.Injustice, crap leaders, emotions and lack of religious knowledge will ensure recruits to the cause.The crap leader side of things is changing and there is hope which may bear fruit or not.Time will tell.

I think these issues are just a part of the story.Other factors are geo-political and geo-strategic and I think Central Asia is going to be unsettled in the not so far off future, as this area is where China, India, the US and Russia will vie for supremacy due to its vast gas and mineral resources.I also agree with Osama on the key role of usury in causing much of the worlds woes and this issue is not even on the table.The prohibition on this iniquitous practise is so great in Islam that the Prophet said 'There are 73 ways to anger the Almighty which are less heinous than usury;one of these is to co-habit with your mother'.The issue of interest has been discussed on the Nexus before and its effects are so incredibly widespread and I think lacking in any merits.

In answer to Polytrips question-the Prophet stated that permanent peace will not exist between the Muslims and the Jewish people and this will always inspire some to seek to bring this about.This doesnt mean that a state of permanent war will exist between the 2 sides but a state of uneasy peace is the best that will emerge.

And apologies if this last post has crossed the bounds between opinion and religious nuttery and its length; Ive tried to show where Al Qaedas approach is contrary to the correct methodology.

 

[joedirt]

Why are you so sure that there NEVER will be a permanent peace between israel and the islamic world?

Because both the Torah and the Koran are written in such away that almost any action whether good or evil can be justified from them. Some see the loving God, some see the vengeful God, and some see the God that tells them to kill the non believes...

As long as people blindly allow the so called "holy" words of other men from thousands of years ago to determine the course of their lives we will have Muslims that find verse to justify the killing of others and we also find the equivalent verses in the Torah allowing Jews to justify the slaughter of muslims.

Here's a clue incase everyone hasn't figured it out: Organized religion that is blindly followed is the most dangerous of human activities. It's like a drug only more powerful. When people continue to use religion their brain structure is altered into such away that it takes lot of undoing to once again see clearly. Never train yourself o blindly believe anything...

Abrahamaic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are responsible collectively for more deaths than world war I and II. Religious fanaticism blows to say the least.

I believe people can believe what they want, but when you blindly believe something with no basis for whether is' true or not then I question the sanity of that belief. In fact I'll go so far as to say that I believe the 3 Abrahamic religions are the largest, most well organized cults the world has ever seen.

I mean every single one of these religions say's you have to have faith and not question...THAT'S A CULT.

You and I dear Nexus readers are people that are perhaps starting some process of waking up but we are all trapped in a bad dream with people claiming they know the only true God. Jesus the lack of depth in the spiritual views of the Abrahamic religions is just staggering. I'll stop here because I could easily get into offensive territory. Suffice it to say I lump all 3 of them into the same category...worthless, and vile.


BTW One last side point. Anti Americanism, Anti semitism, anti Islam, anti this, and anti that are all deep sleep sorts of thinking. The best thing about the nexus is the fact that we have like minded people from all over the globe, from all different religious backgrounds. Let all of us remember that the bond of brother hood that we all share is much stronger than some petty geographical location we happen to have been born to. Not a single one of us lives in a country that hasn't been involved in countless crimes and we all know this. Personally I haven't felt any attack against me as a citizen of the USA, but I do understand the frustration of other citizens of the planet...HELL I have the same frustrations...

 

[corpus callosum]

Corpus Callosum hereby issues a fatwa against Joedirt..............:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[joedirt]

Corpus Callosum hereby issues a fatwa against Joedirt..............:lol: :lol: :lol:

I grew up southern Baptist and it was very very hard to deprogram myself. I remember one conversation with my brother, after I had already embraced yoga and meditation. He just couldn't let go of the fact that I was in violation of his version of God's word. I finally looked him straight in the eye and I said, "If God is like you say he is, Then I want to go to hell to get as far away from him as possible"! Me and my brother do not talk religion any more...but on the bright side he pray's for my soul often now!


Corpus you are a perfect example of what I'm NOT talking about! You have your religious views, yet you are willing to plunge the spiritual world for direct experience. It may very well be that all of us psychonauts are walking down a dead end path spiritually, but at least we are all exploring the path and not just being blindly led down someone else's path.

 

[endlessness]

I mean every single one of these religions say's you have to have faith and not question..

 

[a1pha]

I could go on at length about the finer theocratic points but I dont know how appropriate that would be for the Nexus.

Hopefully the mods won't disapprove because your words are most valuable corpus callosum. If only there was more of a muslim voice in my circle of friends and in the larger political discussion, but there isn't. Muslims are vilified around here and it's a true shame because there's much to be learned.

While it's distant from our main topic, this issue ties into our daily lives and greater understanding of the world and I'm beyond thankful this conversation is taking place.

 

[endlessness]

What would there be to disaprove? His post was great, full of insider insight about the questions we discuss here and in no way disrespects anybody

Thanks for that corpus callosum!

So you say you dont think there will be a perfect solution/peace, but dont you think that if the palestinians were given their autonomy and the settlements/wall removed, at least a significant part of the extremist vs west problem would be diminished and then other gradual measures to ensure a more or less reasonable acceptance of each other could be worked for? Not that its an easy thing to achieve but in terms of global issues that could greatly influence (for better) the world scenario, I would say thats one of the main ones.

 

[corpus callosum]

If the wall and settlements were to be removed then this would be a first step and I honestly cannot see this happening any time very soon.Only the US has the potential power to cause this to happen but both the Republican and the Democrats have to court the Zionist lobby in the US in order to win the elctions, or stay in power.The symbiotic relationship between the parties and the Zionists benefits them only, and the US citizens have little to gain from their alliances.As we have seen only fairly recently Israel often ignores international opinion and even when their actions are in contravention of international law, the US still doesnt seem willing (or able) to reign Israel in.

The revolutions which make up the Arab Spring are going to alter the dynamics of the relationships between the Arabs and Israel, and depending on how this pans out, the Israel-US relationship may have to change significantly as well.The reconciliation of Fatah and Hamas is long overdue and has been brokered by Egypt, and this doesnt imply that Egypt is leaning towards militancy although Israel has subtly hinted at this, saying the reconciliation is a 'victory for terrorism'.Have they forgotten that the creation of Israel was in part the 'victory of terrorism' as the British effectively walked away having been slapped hard by the Stern Gang and Irgun?

If a Palestinian state does emerge, it needs to be viable with control of its water supply, effective transport links between its different parts and no Israeli watchposts hemming them in effectively making them like ghettoes or townships.The present 'Roadmap' doesnt provide such a state and unless the Israelis are prepared to make such concessions then the process is not going to proceed.We must remember that their occupation is illegal under international law, and its selective application highlights the hypocrisy (or lack of any true influence) of the UN which doesnt go unnoticed by the Arab public.

The world scenario is never static.With the convulsions hitting the Arab world this year,I think its impossible to know whats on the horizon, and the Law of Unintended Consequences is firmly in operation.The death of Bin Laden will make it easier for NATO and the Taliban to step towards cessation of hostilities in Afghanistan.If pride and love of symbolism aren't allowed to become obstacles then I think that war need not go on for too much longer. Whenever it does end, the spot-light will have a greater chance of falling on that other place which has managed to make the airwaves hardly at all in the West, and that is the Caucasus.

 

[biopsylo]

i dont believe he is dead, i dont believe he is alive.

if there is a "he" then he is probably a lot like us and me.

he wants his pie or some grains of sand- that were stolen by the man.

if we could sit and chat and pass the pipe, i may just take delight- in hula hooping with him on some starry night.:shock:

 

[DMTripper]

We will not have peace until we stop killing each other.