JungleGhost
Nocturnal Scavenger
Any1 experienced kanna ext. That was worth the $? Im still searching to understand its effects on me.
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Kanna extracts
- Thread starter JungleGhost
- Start date
aizoaceous
Titanium Teammate
We have at least two long threads about kanna. The effects of mesembrine alkaloids are quite different from tryptamine or phenethylamine psychedelics, but so far I believe they're beneficial. It's easy to find anecdotes of people who started out just looking for a "legal high", but with experience chose to make moderate use of the drug with apparently positive effects on their lives.
Commercial extracts appear to be prepared by extraction of powdered plant material into acidified water, which is then made basic and extracted with a nonpolar solvent (A/B). This works for me, but removal of all solids from the water requires annoyingly slow filtration and/or settling. If that's incomplete then an emulsion will form with the nonpolar solvent.
An extract can also be prepared by extraction of a paste of powdered plant material, lime, and water with nonpolar solvent, similar to CIELO for cactus (STB). This avoids any trouble with clogged filters but is less pure, probably because an unidentified but relatively polar impurity partitions more into the solvent due to the smaller amount of water. I've purified that further by flash chromatography to obtain crystals of mesembrine fumarate and malate, but that's a lot of work. It's a very clean experience, though. I believe that most but not all of the nausea reported from high doses of mesembrine alkaloids is actually unknown impurities. I'm not aware of any commercial extracts purified to this level.
A simple ethanolic extract would probably work, though I've never tried it. The fresh (well, frozen and thawed) material actually works for me without further processing, about 300 mg from a strong plant chewed up and held under my tongue. Nigel Gericke, the South African medical doctor responsible for a resurgence in Western interest in the drug, reports some unpleasant experiences with crude dried plant material, presumably due to sharp calcium oxalate crystals (raphides). The material is traditionally fermented, though all studies I've found show a decrease in alkaloids from that. The purpose of the fermentation is sometimes given as reducing oxalates. It's possible that reduces irritation in the mouth or nose. The total dose of oxalate seems too small to contribute to systemic effects like kidney stones.
Commercial extracts are standardized (diluted to a known concentration of alkaloids) by HPLC. An overdose of kanna is very unlikely to be fatal, but it's still unpleasant so un-analyzed extracts should be approached with care. I've seen variation of 10:1 or more in alkaloid concentration in the same plant, which I attribute primarily to water stress. The plant grows fastest with a good water supply; there is no need to let the medium fully dry back before watering again. It should be given drought stress before harvest though, at least a couple weeks with the medium perfectly dry, to the point that leaves begin to skeletonize. Salt stress may also be effective but I haven't tried yet.
I bought seeds from three vendors, all of which were similar and active. I also bought a cutting that was completely inactive though. I can't find any morphological difference between the active and inactive plants. This includes the leaf vein structure, which is supposed to distinguish Sceletium emarcidum from S. tortuousum. The plant material I've grown is >10x stronger than most reports of wild material. I'd guess that both genetic and environmental factors explain this. It's also >10x stronger than any powdered plant material I've purchased. I don't know why; perhaps those plants were grown outdoors with no ability to control irrigation, or perhaps extract makers buy all the good material and leave the dregs to be sold unprocessed.
Commercial extracts appear to be prepared by extraction of powdered plant material into acidified water, which is then made basic and extracted with a nonpolar solvent (A/B). This works for me, but removal of all solids from the water requires annoyingly slow filtration and/or settling. If that's incomplete then an emulsion will form with the nonpolar solvent.
An extract can also be prepared by extraction of a paste of powdered plant material, lime, and water with nonpolar solvent, similar to CIELO for cactus (STB). This avoids any trouble with clogged filters but is less pure, probably because an unidentified but relatively polar impurity partitions more into the solvent due to the smaller amount of water. I've purified that further by flash chromatography to obtain crystals of mesembrine fumarate and malate, but that's a lot of work. It's a very clean experience, though. I believe that most but not all of the nausea reported from high doses of mesembrine alkaloids is actually unknown impurities. I'm not aware of any commercial extracts purified to this level.
A simple ethanolic extract would probably work, though I've never tried it. The fresh (well, frozen and thawed) material actually works for me without further processing, about 300 mg from a strong plant chewed up and held under my tongue. Nigel Gericke, the South African medical doctor responsible for a resurgence in Western interest in the drug, reports some unpleasant experiences with crude dried plant material, presumably due to sharp calcium oxalate crystals (raphides). The material is traditionally fermented, though all studies I've found show a decrease in alkaloids from that. The purpose of the fermentation is sometimes given as reducing oxalates. It's possible that reduces irritation in the mouth or nose. The total dose of oxalate seems too small to contribute to systemic effects like kidney stones.
Commercial extracts are standardized (diluted to a known concentration of alkaloids) by HPLC. An overdose of kanna is very unlikely to be fatal, but it's still unpleasant so un-analyzed extracts should be approached with care. I've seen variation of 10:1 or more in alkaloid concentration in the same plant, which I attribute primarily to water stress. The plant grows fastest with a good water supply; there is no need to let the medium fully dry back before watering again. It should be given drought stress before harvest though, at least a couple weeks with the medium perfectly dry, to the point that leaves begin to skeletonize. Salt stress may also be effective but I haven't tried yet.
I bought seeds from three vendors, all of which were similar and active. I also bought a cutting that was completely inactive though. I can't find any morphological difference between the active and inactive plants. This includes the leaf vein structure, which is supposed to distinguish Sceletium emarcidum from S. tortuousum. The plant material I've grown is >10x stronger than most reports of wild material. I'd guess that both genetic and environmental factors explain this. It's also >10x stronger than any powdered plant material I've purchased. I don't know why; perhaps those plants were grown outdoors with no ability to control irrigation, or perhaps extract makers buy all the good material and leave the dregs to be sold unprocessed.
aizoaceous would you describe Kanna as typically having empathogenic qualities? I am interested in it but mostly because I am influenced by people claiming it is an empathogen/entactogen.
aizoaceous
Titanium Teammate
I've had experiences with mesembrine that I don't think I could distinguish from MDMA except for the duration. It's less consistent for me though, and my partner has experienced weaker empathogenic/enactogenic effects and greater nausea from the same extract. Anecdotally, users with history of major depression may tend to report better effects. "Priming" is often reported to be necessary, i.e. that full effects are felt only after a week or so of prior use at low dose. This is unfortunately not possible to test without a good supply of mesembrine-naive users, so I don't think we know much there. When the drug is used sublingually, there's also an element of skill in not swallowing before it absorbs that may explain some or all of the "priming" effect.
I've also experienced hallucinations under the influence of mesembrine, though even less consistently and with different character from the classical psychedelics, more like brief flashes of realistic scenes and never geometric. I don't know if that means anything, since I'm naturally (from sleep deprivation, heavy physical exertion, etc.) more inclined to hallucination than most people. I've seen reports from others of hallucinations, but only as part of an overdose they didn't wish to repeat. I don't know whether their adverse effects were due to mesembrine alkaloids or due to other constituents in less purified extracts.
I've also experienced hallucinations under the influence of mesembrine, though even less consistently and with different character from the classical psychedelics, more like brief flashes of realistic scenes and never geometric. I don't know if that means anything, since I'm naturally (from sleep deprivation, heavy physical exertion, etc.) more inclined to hallucination than most people. I've seen reports from others of hallucinations, but only as part of an overdose they didn't wish to repeat. I don't know whether their adverse effects were due to mesembrine alkaloids or due to other constituents in less purified extracts.
