Ketamine vs Ibogaine for depression?

[axl617]

Hey guys, haven't been well lately as I seem to have broken new ground in terms of how bad depression can be. I've been fighting this beast for 4 years now but it's ramped up significantly in the last few months thanks to my newfound existential angst. I need to treat this thing fast before it leads to something worse, so I'm looking to giving these drugs another chance in hopes that they at least bring me back to my dysthymic state.

Ketamine has had a massive amount of attention in the last few years due to some people claiming it instantly cures their depression, something like 80% of people respond to it even if they are resistant to all other therapies. Some say it's a permanent cure, some say it works for a few weeks, some say it works for a few hours and might lead to addiction or does nothing, so it's murky territory. I have actually tried it a few times, in nightclubs, when heavily intoxicated, did it lift my inner hopelessness? No but I recall coming home and the next day feeling 'ok', nothing like how I would feel after taking some MDMA where I would be near suicidal.

Ibogaine also is claimed to have amazing curative effects. I have also tried it but in tiny doses of up a quarter of a gram for a total of 1gram (TA). It was quite powerful, but did nothing to change that inner hopelessness feeling, but I did notice a mood boosting effect for a few days or weeks from what was possibly noribogaine.

Sadly other alternatives are off the table, I used to do LSD quite frequently but it's a perfect reflection of what's going in inside, so my post-depression trips were always disturbing and not useful for anything. Marijuana is an example of something that I've been using for a few years, but with this condition had a panic attack breakdown from just a tiny joint. I've tried all the supplements known to man with no avail, only these two things I think have real potential.

 

[tseuq]

Ahoi axl617,

I don't have a direct answer related to your question about keta and ibgoa but I want to share an idea, which I think you are already aware of, about the healing of f.e. despression with these tools.

I think that there are many tools, and psychedelics are def. a part of them, which have potential as useful supplements for a "healthy"(flexible) mind. But in my opinion, these tools can only open us up for ourselves. They can give us a glimpse of our potential, but they are not going to to the work for us.
As long as I pretend that I am sitting in my (open) birdcage, how I feel is the immediate feedback of my believe system and its resulting bevahiour.

All the best, namaste, tseuq

 

[RhythmSpring]

Hey, I feel you. I feel like I've broken new ground in terms of depression, too, unfortunately.

I'm not sure I could offer any insight, though I have taken both ketamine and iboga at different times. You're right in that iboga doesn't really "uplift" you like some other substances can. It just gets straight to the point/truths about your life. It will lead you to make changes in your life, which will ultimately help your depression. But it's not about feeling happy, it's about living life in alignment with what is right.

Ketamine, on the other hand, is nice, kind of a feel-good drug but on a spiritual level. It's sort of like insta-meditation. It gets you right to a place of serenity. I am cautious about it for a few reasons, though. One, it's not natural, two, it has side effects on kidney and bladder function, and three, it has the potential to be psychologically addictive. So, I avoid it and steer myself toward Iboga, which acts on the NMDA receptors like ketamine does, and a whole lot more.

I wish you the best.

 

[Running Bear]

Nothing instantly cures depression. Usually depression comes from a low self esteem or a traumatic event. I often fall into deep depression to the point were i don't even want to get out of bed. I never snap out of it until I kick my own a-s. The best thing you can do is force your self to do things like cleaning your house, going to the gym, picking up the phone, eating right, meditating. If you force your self to do those things and show the world that your a happy, hard working, motivated person they will take your word for it. Within time you will become that person. A low dosage (2grams) of Psilocybin mushrooms may help but i wouldn't go crazy with it until you start feeling better. Best of luck man!

 

[passiflora]

I can relate, I've been anxious/depressed for most of the past 7 years and tried lots of different prescription meds, supplements, therapists, alternative therapies, etc, most of which were unsuccessful. You really have to fully commit to doing whatever you can to find what works for you. It requires some serious ongoing effort, and like everyone already said, no substance is going to change how you feel in the long term if you aren't ready to make that change. I encourage you to incorporate mindfulness practices into your life, it's what has helped me the most in recognizing detrimental thoughts and patterns. Even if you do choose to try either substance and it does help, you'll still have to change something to prevent yourself from slipping back into the same cycle. Best wishes.

 

[zknarc]

I’ve suffered depression and anxiety from teenage years and it is now so bad I’m not really functioning anymore.

On Ketamine, just be aware that though it has got a lot of press (mostly because of the type of substance ie. illegal) very few actual studies have been done and of those studies the relapse rate is very high. I am trying it purely because I’m desperate and have tried just about everything else (zero response to any psych meds) and have found positive results. It is the metabolite of Ketamine that is what helps so it takes a little while (for me, 12hrs+) to have an effect and the dose does seem to need to be significant or I get no effect at all. Personally, I absolutely hate the K experience but some people seem to find it addictive. I think self administered K falls into the ‘last resort use at your own risk’ category.

I’ve not used Ibgoa because the idea of 3 day trip scares the heck out of me. I’ve struggled enough with short psychedelic experiences.

While we are talking about non-pharmaceuticals, I am finding MDMA very useful in psychotherapy sessions. I am able to evaluate, discuss and look at all sorts of things without the typical thinking defence mechanisms. MDMA is pretty amazing it the way it enables me to see things differently, make new associations and be totally non-defensive or emotionally triggered. This is why it is being very successfully trialled for PTSD sufferers by MAPS. I have found MDMA far more useful than DMT (not tried other psychedelics yet but suspect this would still apply) because full psychedelic experience is just too wildly removed from normal reality or thinking for me to really take into my earthly mortal existence.

Nothing instantly cures depression. Usually depression comes from a low self esteem or a traumatic event. I often fall into deep depression to the point were i don't even want to get out of bed. I never snap out of it until I kick my own a-s. The best thing you can do is force your self to do things like cleaning your house, going to the gym, picking up the phone, eating right, meditating. If you force your self to do those things and show the world that your a happy, hard working, motivated person they will take your word for it. Within time you will become that person.

I’m not trying to be critical but a lot of advice in this vein can be damaging for people with serious depression. Forcing yourself and the fake-it-till-you-make-it type mindset can set some people up for a big fall since doing so required emotional numbing/denial of feelings and becomes a ‘writing cheques you can’t cash’ burnout situation. This is exactly what happened to me and caused a total emotional breakdown to the point where I couldn’t (and still can’t) work or even look after myself even 6 months on. I’m not saying it doesn’t work for some people but I’m saying be very careful with this mindset especially if prone to type-a personality behaviours.

 

[RhythmSpring]

Forcing yourself and the fake-it-till-you-make-it type mindset can set some people up for a big fall since doing so required emotional numbing/denial of feelings and becomes a ‘writing cheques you can’t cash’ burnout situation.

Yip. This.

 

[Running Bear]

zknarc I don't think you understand what im saying. You cant just lay there and do nothing expecting to snap out it. Lets say you don't pick up your house for a example. If you just leave your trash laying around and it just keeps building up your just going to get even more depressed. i never told him not to get help, just to work on himself. At the end of the day only he knows whats going on inside his head. If your depressed your fighting for your life so how is telling someone to work out or meditate bad advice lol?

 

[zknarc]

zknarc I don't think you understand what im saying. You cant just lay there and do nothing expecting to snap out it. Lets say you don't pick up your house for a example. If you just leave your trash laying around and it just keeps building up your just going to get even more depressed. i never told him not to get help, just to work on himself. At the end of the day only he knows whats going on inside his head. If your depressed your fighting for your life so how is telling someone to work out or meditate bad advice lol?

I understand exactly what you're saying, what I'm saying is to be careful using a mindset of toughing it out forcing yourself into things because this is what can lead to breakdowns and worsening of the depression. Snap out of it get off your arse stuff just isn't helpful for major depression where someone's coping is already maxed out.

 

[Running Bear]

I understand what your saying and i think your right to a certain extent. The only point that I'm trying to make is that psychedelics can show you what your doing wrong but you still have to fix it yourself.

 

[oversoul1919]

Neither.

To elaborate: psychedelics are double edged sword. They can help you overcome your depression by showing you that your depression is meaningless, and show you how to enjoy life, or they can show you something which will make your depression worse to the power of n-th.

Those were my 2 cents.

Now, roll the dice if you wish.

 

[Running Bear]

Neither.

To elaborate: psychedelics are double edged sword. They can help you overcome your depression by showing you that your depression is meaningless, and show you how to enjoy life, or they can show you something which will make your depression worse to the power of n-th.

Those were my 2 cents.

Now, roll the dice if you wish.

I completely agree. Psychedelics can make your depression worse which is why I said not to get to crazy with it. I took ayahuasca one time when I was depressed and had the worst experience of my life and after it was over I had nightmares for a month straight. I noticed that a lot of people on this thing like to pretend that ayahuasca is a miracle medicine and that the the entity behind it is all loving and caring but its not true. The people that think that way either have no form of mental illness or there delirious. having a good set and setting is extremely important.

 

[joedirt]

zknarc I don't think you understand what im saying. You cant just lay there and do nothing expecting to snap out it. Lets say you don't pick up your house for a example. If you just leave your trash laying around and it just keeps building up your just going to get even more depressed. i never told him not to get help, just to work on himself. At the end of the day only he knows whats going on inside his head. If your depressed your fighting for your life so how is telling someone to work out or meditate bad advice lol?

^This times 1000. There is absolutely NOTHING that helps with major or minor depression more than action. Depression by natures makes it tolerable to lay around and be miserable. Depression is a state of decreased activity...always. In fact I would argue that the "get of your ass and do something" is far and away the single most important aspect of getting over depression.

How I see psychedelics fitting in with this are that they can give you a live review of sorts and lend a helping hand with the motivation... UNTIL the afterglow phase wears off. So a first time user taking a large dose will likely get a 2-4 week boost.. which is HUGE. But they either do something with their new found motivation or they come crashing right back down.

I fully believe that deviant neurochemistry (what ever that actually is) is the result of 'most' depressions and not the other way around. Studies show that thinking happy thoughts produces more serotonin.. studies also show that decreased serotonin is associated with decreased mood... I know we are quickly moving past the serotonin model of depression, but I use it as an example.

So yeah I FULLY support the fake it till you make it. However there might be a tad more needed to get escape velocity and really change your life.. IN this regard I think psychedelics are absolutely amazing tools.

Peace

 

[joedirt]

As for ketamine vs traditional psyches..

I have not done ketamine, but my thoughts are this. Ketamine makes you feel good immediately...so you aren't depressed, but you haven't been granted any deep insight into your nature. Psychs on the other hand can deliver a blistering blow to the depressed ego.. so much so that some will resist it to the point of psychological harm, but those truly interested in change will get a lot more out of a true psychedelic experience..for the long term IMHO.

 

[jamie]

" In fact I would argue that the "get of your ass and do something" is far and away the single most important aspect of getting over depression."

It can be. I have been depressed almost to the point of suicidal ideation before, and nothing helped aside from getting over myself and making myself go out and go work, see my friends, make an effort to be involved in anything.

Psychedelics have NEVER resolved an issue for me in the way that I feel is presented sometimes. It is always about a choice I have to now go out and do something to cultivate more of that sort of behavior etc in my life, my relationships..or to just continue on with the behavior that led to misery.

 

[drown]

I'm sorry to inform you, but in my opinion no single chemical treatment will have lasting permanent effects on your state of mind. (at least none that will bring you out of depression).

Chemical therapy can be beneficial,but should not be the only thing used, at that point becomes nothing more than a crutch. I have used Ketamine I would say it does nill for depression, although I have zero interest in iboga I have read the effects it has on physical withdraw symptoms.... it is not suppose to help with the psychological aspects tho.

I have dealt with depression in the past, and believe chems can help but it is mainly your mindset and outlook on things that has to be corrected. You would be amazed how much a single situation, let alone the entire world can change..... just by looking at it from a different point of view. Psychedelics can allow you to see things from those other angles. A sudo therapy if you will.

But if you feel a consistant use is needed to elevate your spirits be warned, some drugs... including marijuana have been shown to lower serotonin levels with prolonged, which is the cause of some of the major depressive results from the discontinued use of many many substances...

I know it sounds a bit preachy and its not intented, I just don't want someone to go down an even worse path than depression itself.....

For me one strong psych trip in complete privacy and meditation was enough o change my entire outlook on life.... keeping that way of thinking is the challenge....

All thing pass and all things change...GoodLuck

 

[AlbertChemist]

Ketamine is probably the safer option, because there is a much lower risk of cardiac problems compared with Ibogaine.

That being said, Ibogaine is a beautiful medicine, which can produce very deep spiritual experiences. I haven't had high dose ketamine, so I can't really comment on what space you enter at those levels, but I would still guess that ultimately ibogaine is more psychedelic since, among many other things, it is an agonist at 5-HT2 receptors.

Also, for depression, I don't think it is necessary to take a full `flood dose' of ibogaine. A dose of around 300-500mg ibogaine HCl should be plenty! The maximum I've taken was 500 mg, and it was one of the most intense experiences I have ever had and lasted for about 2 days! Ibogaine is a cleanser, it flushes your system through and gets rid of bad patterns in your behaviour. But as was mentioned earlier, the substance itself is not enough, you have to put what you learned and the new patterns you develop into practice afterwards, which takes work and effort.

Wish you the best!

 

[Matoskah]

Yikes that's a lot of substances.

My friend once suffered from severe depression and learned, through years of therapy how to handle it.

The depression is still there but it's handled and not running rampant and my friends health has greatly improved because of it.

Your text reminded me of when I first started out working out seriously. Like many others I kept googling "how to gain mass" "how to gain weight" and ofc the classic "how to get gains" but I never found the magic pill or advice.

While I was googling I kept eating well and more, and I kept working out.
One day at my parents home my mum was astonished by my progress and it struck me that I had been living in isolation while so fiercely training and maintaining my diet.

That day I went home and I looked in the mirror and even I was amazed at my accomplishments. Sometimes we need another person to help us, to make us see ourselves for the better.

I truly believe that there are no shortcuts in life.

So because of my friends great improvement with depression through therapy I'd strongly recommend you to seek out professional help as well instead of trying to self-medicate with google as your advisor. It might make things worse.

I wish you the very best.

 

[Spirochete]

I’ve suffered depression and anxiety from teenage years and it is now so bad I’m not really functioning anymore.

On Ketamine, just be aware that though it has got a lot of press (mostly because of the type of substance ie. illegal) very few actual studies have been done and of those studies the relapse rate is very high. I am trying it purely because I’m desperate and have tried just about everything else (zero response to any psych meds) and have found positive results. It is the metabolite of Ketamine that is what helps so it takes a little while (for me, 12hrs+) to have an effect and the dose does seem to need to be significant or I get no effect at all. Personally, I absolutely hate the K experience but some people seem to find it addictive. I think self administered K falls into the ‘last resort use at your own risk’ category.

I’ve not used Ibgoa because the idea of 3 day trip scares the heck out of me. I’ve struggled enough with short psychedelic experiences.

While we are talking about non-pharmaceuticals, I am finding MDMA very useful in psychotherapy sessions. I am able to evaluate, discuss and look at all sorts of things without the typical thinking defence mechanisms. MDMA is pretty amazing it the way it enables me to see things differently, make new associations and be totally non-defensive or emotionally triggered. This is why it is being very successfully trialled for PTSD sufferers by MAPS. I have found MDMA far more useful than DMT (not tried other psychedelics yet but suspect this would still apply) because full psychedelic experience is just too wildly removed from normal reality or thinking for me to really take into my earthly mortal existence.

Nothing instantly cures depression. Usually depression comes from a low self esteem or a traumatic event. I often fall into deep depression to the point were i don't even want to get out of bed. I never snap out of it until I kick my own a-s. The best thing you can do is force your self to do things like cleaning your house, going to the gym, picking up the phone, eating right, meditating. If you force your self to do those things and show the world that your a happy, hard working, motivated person they will take your word for it. Within time you will become that person.

I’m not trying to be critical but a lot of advice in this vein can be damaging for people with serious depression. Forcing yourself and the fake-it-till-you-make-it type mindset can set some people up for a big fall since doing so required emotional numbing/denial of feelings and becomes a ‘writing cheques you can’t cash’ burnout situation. This is exactly what happened to me and caused a total emotional breakdown to the point where I couldn’t (and still can’t) work or even look after myself even 6 months on. I’m not saying it doesn’t work for some people but I’m saying be very careful with this mindset especially if prone to type-a personality behaviours.

I think what Running Bear was trying to say is that you need to have healthy habits even if your mind is unhealthy, and I agree. It's not that those healthy habits are going to cure you, but they need to be in place if you are ever going to get healthy. Having those healthy habits just make everything else easier. How is anyone going to get healthy if their house is a dump, they eat trash, and their mind is completely out of control? Those are all aggravating factors, so getting them straight is not going to cure anything on their own, but they will sure help.

 

[Spirochete]

I also really like what Running Bear said about the connection to self-esteem. Probably the best definition of self-esteem i've come across is that it's your reputation with yourself. Once again this ties in directly with those healthy habits Running Bear mentioned. It's hard to have a good reputation with yourself when you don't clean your house when you know you should, you let your mind run rampant when you know you shouldn't, you eat like trash when you know you shouldn't, and when you tell yourself you're going to get out and do things like going to the gym, but you fail to do so. I could add things to the list such as good hygiene and sleep habits. Not only do all the things mentioned promote health in their own right, but they also improve your reputation with yourself when you set out to do them and actually follow through. Once again, few people are going to cure something like depression doing these things, but they are still helpful, especially since depression seems to be a collection of smaller issues.