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Lazy alkaloid salting combos (CISLO)

Migrated topic.
I wouldn't know anything about 4-hydroxybutanoate or where to get it. I can tell you lactate was the worst to work with and yeilded very little, malic and tartaric worked well. My preference would be tartaric as it reacted far better than malic but malic could be decanted.

I will still need to run a dmt citrate and tartaric test, to combine with harmala tartaric.

However, dmt citrate/ harmala malate was stable over night. I did count 23 tiny crystals that dropped out in places where the PG was spread thin on the glass dish. So that 1:3 ratio may be pushing the ratios or the tiny amount of VG could be an issue. I will leave it longer but definitely appears to be a workable combination. However, there is an increase in VG ratios.

I have a tartaric DMT/ Harmala experiment going now with DMT FB at 25% of the VG weight and 8.3% Harmala FB. This maintains the 1:3 ratio at a minimum and keeps the VG weight down for less vape hits.

On a side note DMT citrate and tartaric take some effort and some heat (from a hot water bath) to get it to dissolve You really need to work it with a utensil.

Although already discussed previously on nexus, DMT tartrate forms a gum, it did crystalize when it was mixed with harmala tartrate and re-ex in H20.

Lactate forms do interest me based of an old post.

Edit: Tartaric DMT/ Harmala may need to be diluted potential crystallization happening (slight clouding).
 
There seems to be success with the tartaric dmt/ harmala.

.4ml PG appears to hold 100mg of FB and 33mg fb harmala (both converted to tartarate salt form). Basically there is a 3:1 ratio of DMT to harmala dissolved in PG. This means the PG is approx 32% alkaloids to 68% PG by weight. Tartrate salt forms were converted in EA.

There has been slight clouding but no crystal formation.

I believe Loveall suggests 25% dmt to PG. So there's potential to add a little more PG while maintaining a good % of alkaloids to PG.

I feel like there could be a number of potential combinations, it may take some time to figure out what the best ratios and salt forms are. However, this could be a start.

Dmt citrate and harmala malate has remained stable in oil form (I worry there may be slightly to much PG in the mix). The ratio of dmt/pg mix to harmala/pg mix is even but due to the lower harmala content in this mix compared to dmt content there maybe slightly too much PG. But I have zero vape experience.
 
_Trip_ said:
There seems to be success with the tartaric dmt/ harmala.

.4ml PG appears to hold 100mg of FB and 33mg fb harmala (both converted to tartarate salt form). Basically there is a 3:1 ratio of DMT to harmala dissolved in PG. This means the PG is approx 32% alkaloids to 68% PG by weight. Tartrate salt forms were converted in EA.

There has been slight clouding but no crystal formation.

I believe Loveall suggests 25% dmt to PG. So there's potential to add a little more PG while maintaining a good % of alkaloids to PG.

I feel like there could be a number of potential combinations, it may take some time to figure out what the best ratios and salt forms are. However, this could be a start.

Dmt citrate and harmala malate has remained stable in oil form (I worry there may be slightly to much PG in the mix). The ratio of dmt/pg mix to harmala/pg mix is even but due to the lower harmala content in this mix compared to dmt content there maybe slightly too much PG. But I have zero vape experience.
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Thank you for the info _Trip_

I plan to do more work with tartrate. I agree, harmala tartrate seems to do well.

One thing I wonder about is the salt form. Out of EA, we usually get mono salts. Tartaric has an extra H+ it can donate in the right environment.

At the same time, except for harmalol, it is very convenient to get harmalas in FB form (harmine, DHH, THH: let's call these Har collectively). I want to try starting with DMT tartrate from EA pull/salting. I'm starting to think chemically drying the EA may be beneficial for purity with DMT. Let's call tartaric acid TarH2, the possible tartrate ions are TarH- and Tar--.

Here is what I'm thinking:

- Make a PG solution of around ~33% (mono)DMT tartrate. That is: (DMTH)(TarH)
- Add harmala FB (Har). We know FB does not dissolve in PG. If it does dissolve, it must be reacting with TarH- to go into solution and transform into a tartrate salt.
- If it works, the final salt form would be: (DMTH)(HarH)(Tar)

Lower tartrate amount may be beneficial to avoid common ion effects, which harmalas seem sensitive to (as in manske).

I'll text this out in the next couple weeks. A test with citric can also be done to see if we can get (DMTH)(HarH)(CitH).

Edit: replaced malic with tartaric
 
I wish i knew my chemistry well enough to theorise something about tartaric but i dont.

No worries Loveall, I may have a break from this for a little while. I'll try to do what I can when I can.

For me, dmt malate did not form well, out of 100mg FB i doubt there is even 50mg malate that formed (its still in a jar with the EA). Maybe it'll form better in acetone or PG.

My question is would adding a flavour interfere with the harmala/dmt infused oil? I'd imagine not as they are just natural flavors.

In addition, the dmt citrate/ harmala malate hasn't dropped anymore crystals but 'stringing bits' have crashed out and are floating around. (This has taken almost 72hrs, i believe, to occur).

The tartaric dmt/ harmala remains stable but slightly cloudy.

Also i may have asked this was dmt benzoate tested?
 
Oops, I meant I'm going to work with Tartaric more, feeding off your results. I crossed my wires and was writing down malic when I meant tartaric the whole time. Post edited.

IDK what flavoring agents would do, if anything. Good question.

DMT benzoate was not soluble in PG at all.

I think it all makes sense if you look at the -OH groups. The more the better for solubility in PG which also two -OH groups itself (and like dissolves like)

- Benzoate and malate: No OH groups poor solubility
- Citrate: One OH group, some solubility
- Tartrate: Two OH groups, seems to have the best solubility so far

Of course there are more contributions, which could even be more important.

The extreme example would be glyceric acid. That is very much like PG, except for the acid group.
 
Yh it'll be interesting endeavor to figure out the best combo, that's for sure.

I thought that might be the case with benzoate.

I was meant to ask, how many hits do you normally take when using dmt citrate e-juice in a vape?

The other issue I guess is ensuring whatever salt form is used is the least harmful on the lungs.

I think lactic acid still warrants further investigation and has two OH groups as well. Salicylic is another with two OH groups that like lactic is also used in nicotine vaping.
 
I usually vape with sublingual harmalas so it is hard to say. I just hit at a slow pace. To go in deeper I hit it harder. Difficult to explain as each device is different. You get a feel for it pretty quickly though.
 
Loveall said:
Oops, I meant I'm going to work with Tartaric more, feeding off your results. I crossed my wires and was writing down malic when I meant tartaric the whole time. Post edited.

IDK what flavoring agents would do, if anything. Good question.

DMT benzoate was not soluble in PG at all.

I think it all makes sense if you look at the -OH groups. The more the better for solubility in PG which also two -OH groups itself (and like dissolves like)

- Benzoate and malate: No OH groups poor solubility
- Citrate: One OH group, some solubility
- Tartrate: Two OH groups, seems to have the best solubility so far

Of course there are more contributions, which could even be more important.

The extreme example would be glyceric acid. That is very much like PG, except for the acid group.
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This implies we should perhaps look at some of the sugar acids, being carboxylated polyols so to speak (and glyceric acid is much like tartaric acid with a carboxylic group removed). The gluconate would seem to be a fairly accessible option. I'm pretty sure without looking that gluconic acid is a thing of commerce. For a dibasic acid, you might want to choose saccharic (=glucaric) or mucic acid.
 
Quick update after leaving some preloaded syringes of harmala salts/ VG lying around, it appears harmala malate does not seem to be a viable option. Both harmala malate syringes I have, seem to have significantly crystalize over a couple weeks. Lactate has not cyrstalised at all. I have no syringes with tartaric harmala/PG lying around (I can't report on this).
 
_Trip_ said:
Potentially, how safe are these alternatives to vape DFZ?
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The polyol acids are considered safe for use as food additives - I think their hydrophilic nature will make them safe for inhalation but it's never 100% guaranteed. But the closely-related glucuronic acid is an essential component of human metabolism. The body will have no trouble dealing with gluconic or saccharic acid at usual vaping amounts.

Glucono delta-lactone - Wikipedia - gluconic acid is formed directly from this safe food additive by hydrolysis, and 'effortlessly' metabolised by the body.

"D-Saccharic acid potassium salt is present in plants and animals. It is produced by the chemical oxidation of glucose with nitric acid. D-Saccharic acid lowers cholesterol and has chemotherapeutic property. It also has antimutagenic activity."
 
_Trip_ said:
Quick update after leaving some preloaded syringes of harmala salts/ VG lying around, it appears harmala malate does not seem to be a viable option. Both harmala malate syringes I have, seem to have significantly crystalize over a couple weeks. Lactate has not cyrstalised at all. I have no syringes with tartaric harmala/PG lying around (I can't report on this).
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Thank you so much for the info on lactic acid 🙏

I've tested it and so far so good, but need more time to see if it xtalizes.

However, I use an 88% lactic acid solution. That means there is some water in my e-juice, but only 2-3% which I think is OK. I used it instead of lactic acid powder because it was available at my local brew show. I looked at lactic acid powder, but they all carry calcium lactate (~1%). Not sure if that matters.

By weight this mix seems to be working:

1 part DMT FB
1 part Harmala FB (THH/Harmaline mix from rue, standard zinc conversion of DHH to THH)
1.4 parts 88% lactic acid solution
4.4 parts of 30:70 PG:VG

Maybe there are better ratios, IDK more testing needed.

Below are pictures of the process. DMT and Harmalas need to be very pure. That is the downside to electronic methods, purity is important to dial everything in and not clog sensitive equipment. This is different than brute force flame or sublingual use where more impurities are acceptable.

In the images below, DMT is white, harmala are an off white (color after precipitating from dilute ammonia, if precipitating from NaOH they are white, but use from ammonia precipitation and dry is what I recommend). The final e-juice is a beautiful red.

Interestingly, I dissolved the harmala first with the help from the lactic acid. However, after adding DMT everything went into solution, followed shortly by Harmala precipitation as the DMT became a salt and the lower pKa harmalas free based. More lactic brought everything back into solution. Seeing this sequence happen was VERY cool.
 

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Awesome work Loveall, the end result is a beautiful red, fingers crossed. I feel confident about lactic acid after playing around with it.

The powder wasn't easy to find but if lactic solution works that's just as good.i might have another play around with it soon. The powder is used in cheese making I believe so it should be obtainable for most.

I still can't rule out tartaric I just haven't made a fresh batch and let it sit around. Thanks for sharing your results. I feel purity maybe less off an issue with tartaric based of observations but I could be wrong.

A stable 'vapahusca?' mix would be handy.:d
 
_Trip_ said:
Awesome work Loveall, the end result is a beautiful red, fingers crossed. I feel confident about lactic acid after playing around with it.

The powder wasn't easy to find but if lactic solution works that's just as good.i might have another play around with it soon. The powder is used in cheese making I believe so it should be obtainable for most.

I still can't rule out tartaric I just haven't made a fresh batch and let it sit around. Thanks for sharing your results. I feel purity maybe less off an issue with tartaric based of observations but I could be wrong.

A stable 'vapahusca?' mix would be handy.:d
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Thanks. The juice is in a vape (vaporesso luxe X 0.4 Ohm). It runs at 32W, hopefully that's enough. Gonna try it later...
 
_Trip_ said:
Keep us posted:thumb_up:

Hopefully it is smooth.
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I tested the juice vaping at 32W and was a nice but mild experience. Took 3 hits spaced a couple minutes apart and noticed a trippy feeling slowly building. Not very intense, more power is needed I believe. Flavor was acidic/sour. I think I overdid the lactic acid. Hitting the sweet spot is going to be important (enough acid to salt and solubilize the harmalas, but not too much to minimize sourness/acidity).

From mass alone, 1 Part DMT and 1 part Harmala should be neutralized with ~1 part 88% lactic acid (?) and I added about 1.4 parts lactic. Maybe too much.

PS: No signs of harmala xtalization after 24h+ 🙂
 
Juice def needed more free base. Added DMT until it spotted being acidic (both pH paper and taste). Maybe some harmala started to precipitate, don't care that tiny bit can stay behind. Guess it is a pH buffer of sorts

That fixed the vape taste issue (acidic). Still a little sour but not bad.

Vaped at 66W with the new smok nord 5. MUCH better than 32W. This juice needs the power to be active.

Experience was beautiful. I think we have the amazing DMT+harmala experience in a simple vape now. Harmalas are very hard to dissolve, and there have been many fails, but lactic acid works so far. Thank you _Trip_ ❤️
 
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