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LSD casualty

Migrated topic.
Why does lsd lead to "acid casualties" (someone who is negatively altered for a lifetime, syd barrett) while traditional psychedelics do not?

Is there something inherently dangerous about the lsd molecule, more so then organic psychedelics?
 
Well Syd barett may have had schizoprenia, I think those "acid casualties" may happen faster to people who use psychedelics irresponsible and have a mental illness or inherited risk for a mental illness.

I don't necessarily think "acid casualties" are caused by the drug itself but rather the trip you experience. I just read a trip report from another use here (Trip 6 FRIEND) and I guess you could get negatively altered by all psychedlics. It just depends on your surroundings, preparation, dosage and emotional and physical well-being. Also everyone reacts differently on psychedelics, as psychedelics effect the immune-, nervous- and endocrine systems.
 
In my opinion, Psychedelics can not cause permanent insanity, and even the worst cases of HPPD eventually resolve themselves.

Most of these "acid casualties" were probably users of many other substances, such as cocaine or methamphetamine or alcohol, I also feel a good deal of these people may have had undiagnosed mental illness...

The best review of this question is Rick Strassman's "Adverse Reactions to Psychedelic Drugs: a Review of the Literature" in _J. Nerv and Mental Disease_ 172(10):577-595. He writes:

The most common adverse reaction is a temporary (less than 24 hours) episode of panic --the "bad trip". Symptoms include frightening illusions/ hallucinations (usually visual and/or auditory); overwhelming anxiety to the point of panic; aggression with possible violent acting-out behavior; depression with suicidcal ideations, gestures, or attempts; confusion; and fearfulness to the point of paranoid delusions.

Reactions that are prolonged (days to months) and/or require hospitalization are often referred to as "LSD psychosis," and include a heterogenous population and group of symptoms. Although there are no hard and fast rules, some trends have been noted in these patients. There is a tendency for people with poorer premorbid adjusment, a history of psychiatric illness and/or treatment, a greater number of exposure to psychedelic drugs (and correlatively, a great average total cumulative dosage taken over time), drug-taking in an unsupervised setting, a history of polydrug abuse, and self-therapeutic and/or peer-pressure-submission motive for drug use, to suffer these consequences.

In spite of the impressive degree of prior problems noted in many of these patients, there are occasional reports of severe and prolonged reactions occuring in basically well adjusted individuals. In the same vein, there are many instance of faily poorly adapted individuals who suffer _no_ ill effects from repeated psychedelic drug use. In fact, it has been hypothesized that some schizophrenics do not suffer adverse reactions because of their familiarity with such acute altered states. Another possibility is that there individuals may be "protected" by possible "down-regulation" of the receptors for LSD, bu the (over-)production of some endogenous compound. _Individual_ prediction of adverse reactions, therefore, is quite difficult...

Major "functional" psychosis vs. "LSD psychosis"

A diagnostic issue dealth with explicitly in only a few papers is that of LSD-precipitated major functional illnesses, e.g. affective disorders or schizophrenia. In other words, many of these so called LSD psychoses could be other illnesses that were triggered by the stress of a traumatic psychedelic drug experience. Some of the same methodological issues described earlier affect these studies, but they are, on the averagem better controlled, with more family and past psychiatric history available for comparison.

Hensala et al. compared LSD-using and non-LSD-using psychiatric inpatients. They found that this group of patients was generally of a younger age and contained more characteristically disordered individuals than the non- LSD-using group. Patients with specific diagnoses with or without LSD histories were not compared. Based on their observations, they concluded that LSD was basically just another drug of abuse in a population of frequently hospitalized individuals in the San Francisco area, and that it was unlikely that psychedelic use could be deemed etiological in the development of their psychiatric disorders.

Roy, Breakey et al., and Vardy and Kay have attempted to relate LSD use to the onset and revelopment of a schizophrenia-like syndrome. A few comments regarding this conceptual framework seem in order, before their findings are discussed. The major factor here is that of choosing schizophrenia, or in the Vardy and Kay study, schizophreniform disorders, as the comparison group. There is an implication here that LSD psychoses are comparable, phenomenologically, to schizophrenia-like disorders, and that LSD can "cause" the development of such disorders. The multiplicity of symptoms and syndromes described in the "adverse reaction" literature should make it clear that LSD can cause a number of reactions that can last for any amount of time--from minutes to, possibly, years. I believe what is being studied here is the question of the potential role of LSD in accelerating or precipitating the onset of an illness that was "programmed" to develop ultimately in a particular individual--in a manner comparable to the major physical or emotional stress that often precipitates a bona fide myocardial infarction in an individual with advanced coronary atheresclerosis. The stress did not _cause_ the heart disease; it was only the stimulus that accelerated the inexorable process to manifest illness.

In looking at the relevant studies, Breakey et al. found that schizophrenics who "used drugs" had an earlier onset of symptoms and hospitalization than non-drug-using schizophrenics, and had possibly better premorbid personal- ities than non-drug using patients (although Vardy and KAy have challenged this analysis of Breakey's data).

Bowers compared 12 first-admission patients with psychosis related to LSD use, requiring hospitalization and phenothiazines, to 26 patients hospital- ized and treated with phenothiazines with no history of drug use. Six of these controls had been previously hospitalized. Drug-induced psychotic patients were found to have better premorbib histories and prognostic indicators than the nondrug groups. There was no difference in rates of family history of psychiatric illness. However, several issues flaw this study. One is the poly-drug abusing nature of the "LSD-induced" psychotic patients, compared to the controls. The role of LSD, therefore, in causing or precipitating these symptomatic disorders, is open to dispute. The other is the lack of an adequate comparison control group, i.e. the controls were specified only as "psychotic," and did not necessarily match the LSD group in either symptoms or diagnostic classification. A follow-up study of the patients occured between 2 and 6 years later. One half did well and one half did poorly, although the lack of a control group for a follow-up in a similarly symptomatic control group makes interpretation of the data difficult.

Roy, in a somewhat different design, compared chronic schizophrenic patients (diagnosed according to DSM-III criteria) who had used LSD within the week preceding hospitalization, and found no difference in age of symptom onset or hospitalization compared to patients without a history of illicit drug use.

Vardy and Kay, in an elegant study with a 3- and 5- year follow-up period, demonstrated that patients hospitalized for a schizophrenic picture that developed within two weeks of LSD use (patients with other diagnoses were explicitly excluded form comparisons with non-drug-using schizophrenics) were "fundamentally similar to schizophrenics in geneology, phenomenology, and course of illness (165, p. 877). Pre- morbid adjustment, age of onset of symptoms and hospitalization, family history of psychosis or suicide, and most cognitive features were also equal between groups. Family histories of alcohol abuse were markedly great in the LSD group.

I believe these data, taken as a whole, limited as they are in terms of comparing subgroups (i.e. LSD-using vs. non-LSD-using) of "schizophrenia- like" disorders, point towar, at most, a possible precipitory role in the development of these disorders, in a non specific and not etiologically related manner.


Well, there's the study by Sidney Cohen which was cited here recently, Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease, 130, 1960. The following is from Jay Stevens' Storming Heaven: "Cohen surveyed a sample of five thousand individuals who had taken LSD twenty-five thousand times. He found and average of 1.8 psychotic episodes per thousand ingestions, 1.2 attempted suicides, and 0.4 completed suicides. 'Considering the enormous scope of the psychic responses it induces,' he concluded, 'LSD is an astonishingly safe drug.'"

Some urban legends: I've heard two "stories" about people blinding themselves on "drugs". One was revealed as a hoax by the person who perpetrated it (apparently it was intended to "illustrate" the dangers of LSD), another is trotted out by anti-drug speakers at high schools:

Staring at the Sun: Seven people on LSD stared at the sun and lost 90% of their reading vision. See Erowid's LSD Myth Page
Plucking Out Eyeballs: A teenager arrested while on LSD plucked out his eyeballs in his jail cell, and felt no pain. This may come from Fear & Loathing in Las Vegas where the main character, Duke, reads about a similar episode involving PCP. See Erowid's LSD Myth Page.

Because the "LSD psychosis" is not distinguishable from non-drug-induced psychosis, we have reasonable evidence to conclude that LSD was not the sole cause of psychosis. Instead, it would seem that the drug brought on the problems in vulnerable individuals.

-eg
 
Skylight said:
Isn't LSD still considered an organic compound? As it's basically a fungus (ergot) from rye?
Even 25I-NBOME is an organic compound. You have some improper definitions here.
In chemistry and organic compound is a compound made from (mostly !some exceptions!) Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen and Nitrogen.

What you are looking for is if it is synthetic. LSD is semi synthetic. Means its made from precursors only found in plants.
 
I think acid casualties are just due to the fact of people not being psychologically prepared for the experience that LSD offers. It's all about disposition and frequency.

Even from a personal standpoint I know I have had acid hits that have left me a mess for weeks afterwards and put me off LSD for years. Then years later taken much higher doses and just taken it in my stride, loved every moment of it including the reintegration.

It's when people don't listen to their inner voice and then take LSD that they get into trouble. Because that inner voice will come out on higher doses, and it won't stop talking for many hours.
 
I don't think 'casualties' are only specific to LSD. Acid is a relatively popular recreational drug and so I feel like the term has just become a part of wider pop-culture - but it can happen with any psychedelic. I know at least a handful of people who might be considered a little too far gone down the rabbit hole, and most of their experience is with psilocybin or DMT.
 
Ulim said:
Skylight said:
Isn't LSD still considered an organic compound? As it's basically a fungus (ergot) from rye?
Even 25I-NBOME is an organic compound. You have some improper definitions here.
In chemistry and organic compound is a compound made from (mostly !some exceptions!) Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen and Nitrogen.

What you are looking for is if it is synthetic. LSD is semi synthetic. Means its made from precursors only found in plants.

As for a compound being "organic", doesn't this just mean carbon based?

"organic chemistry" is carbon chemistry...

An organic compound is any member of a large class of gaseous, liquid, or solid chemical compounds whose molecules contain carbon.
- Wikipedia

Carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen are the essential elements of an alkaloid, and while other things may be present, like oxygen or phosphorus and so on, it is carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen that are the essential prerequisites for alkaloid classification.

-eg
 
This is the view of world LSD expert Prof. David Nichols on the whole LSD casualty thing:

VICE: This study shows that acid sticks in people's serotonin receptors, maybe for days at a time. Can it stay in there forever and make people "permafried"?

David Nichols: It's pretty much a myth, [but] there are certain people who have a predisposition to certain types of mental illness—schizophrenia is the most commonly known one—those people will eventually develop schizophrenia. It hits you in your late teens and early 20s. So any kind of stressful event will cause the onset of that disorder. It's a developmental disorder, in the development of the cortex. So a lot of kids, they go off to college, and in that first semester, you're diagnosed with schizophrenia. Students [normally] have to go home because it's the stress, but they were primed for [schizophrenia]. Well, people who are primed for it, if they take a lot of LSD, it can trigger the onset of actual psychosis.

Full interview here:


Also this article discussing a recent study finding no link between use of classical psychedelics such as LSD and psychosis/schizophrenia at the meta-population level:


The short answer is that's a myth. There is no evidence that LSD or other classical psychedelics can manufacture a psychosis out of thin air...i.e. it seems there must be a latent psychosis already present which it can unleash. And unleash it can. Syd Barret consumed truly gargantuan amounts of LSD...I take this more of a symptom of his mental instability rather than the cause of it.
 
Bancopuma said:
This is the view of world LSD expert Prof. David Nichols on the whole LSD casualty thing:

VICE: This study shows that acid sticks in people's serotonin receptors, maybe for days at a time. Can it stay in there forever and make people "permafried"?

David Nichols: It's pretty much a myth, [but] there are certain people who have a predisposition to certain types of mental illness—schizophrenia is the most commonly known one—those people will eventually develop schizophrenia. It hits you in your late teens and early 20s. So any kind of stressful event will cause the onset of that disorder. It's a developmental disorder, in the development of the cortex. So a lot of kids, they go off to college, and in that first semester, you're diagnosed with schizophrenia. Students [normally] have to go home because it's the stress, but they were primed for [schizophrenia]. Well, people who are primed for it, if they take a lot of LSD, it can trigger the onset of actual psychosis.

Full interview here:


Also this article discussing a RECENT study finding no link between use of classical psychedelics such as LSD and psychosis/schizophrenia at the meta-population level:


The short answer is that's a myth. There is no evidence that LSD or other classical psychedelics can manufacture a psychosis out of thin air...i.e. it seems there must be a latent psychosis already present which it can unleash. And unleash it can. Syd Barret consumed truly gargantuan amounts of LSD...I take this more of a symptom of his mental instability rather than the cause of it.

Great post! Thank you!

-eg
 
I'm not sure any drugs can cause permanent psychosis, while most of them including LSD can make you psychotic. Reasons in most cases are irresponsible use, using too much, using while sleep depraved, using too often etc.

I've had episodes that got me scared too, but they were always resolved by the time I managed to sleep it off, and this isn't the easiest task to do. Always, even if freaking out ask yourself "what is off" and it will typically resolve itself as long as it isn't a case of diagnosed mental illness in which case you're fucked either way regardless what you took and are taking from that point on.

Panic which is the first thing you notice with LSD psychosis can really cloud up your mind and make you oblivious on what you did wrong. It is important to always have someone you can trust to make sure you are going to be okay. Some people have had episodes like that and nobody even bothered to help them because of all the stigma surrounding drugs.

What eventually happened to those people is that they were rushed to a mental asylum, and being probably sleep depraved too the psychosis went on. You take in account that such an environment is really a bad place to be after such a traumatic experience. The doctors don't always let you go if they think you might be unstable so at the end some might be falsely classified and treated for a mental illness which they didn't have.

I can't say for sure, but being exposed to that kind of environment for longer than a day and being treated that way could potentially drive anyone crazy. From what I've seen and heard, people stuck there aren't being treated for the illness, but they only mask their symptoms.
 
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