Making Lye (NaOH) at home by electrolysis NaCl solution (Brine)

[Psychogardener]

Hi all, been researching the web lately about how to make lye at home. As I have difficulty obtaining it in my country. Found some useful info, but mostly general info but not specific and in details.

I've manage to construct the basic setup which consist of NaCl solution (brine), distilled water, battery, graphite electrodes (pencil), and salt bridge made with plastic hose. I manage to get the reaction going.
WARNING! CHLORINE GAS IS EXTREMELY TOXIC. HYDROGEN GAS IS EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE! SODIUM HYDROXIDE IS EXTREMELY DANGER! DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING!YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

This is my basic and best setup so far.


This is brine solution at the anode side. After sometime, it becomes yellow due to chlorine gas is produced.


This is distilled water at the cathode side. Hydrogen gas is produced from water leaving OH- ion which is going to combine with Na+ ion to form NaOH.


The process has be going on for about 2 days. Now my question comes.
1. When will the process be completed? (Do i wait till no more bubble?) More importantly is, when it is done, how strong is my NaOH solution? (I read that, I can evaporate the solution to increase the concentration.)
2. Does anyone knows how much NaOH solution will be produced from certain amount of NaCl solution in the end? Also, what's the best ratio of NaCl solution to Distilled water solution to use at the beginning of the process? How do I work out the "Chemmistry Maths" here? Really need some expert chemist advice here or some one who already tried and succeed. Thank you very much. peace.

 

[Viperoid]

yes when you no more bubbles it means all of your NaCl is converted to , NaOH , or you ust change your battery with a new one.
The length of the process is changes with the how much voltage you applied. BUt with the incrased voltage the process will be more violent also. So 220 v city current will be more faster process but more violent and dangerous.
Basically amount of produced NaOH is depends on how much NaCl you add.

You can calculate the theoric amount with this formula = (Amount of NaCl) grams * 0.68

I think there wont be big difference when NaCl-water ratio changes. A saturated solution of
NaCl will do the job

 

[Psychogardener]

yes when you no more bubbles it means all of your NaCl is converted to , NaOH , or you ust change your battery with a new one.
The length of the process is changes with the how much voltage you applied. BUt with the incrased voltage the process will be more violent also. So 220 v city current will be more faster process but more violent and dangerous.
Basically amount of produced NaOH is depends on how much NaCl you add.

You can calculate the theoric amount with this formula = (Amount of NaCl) grams * 0.68

I think there wont be big difference when NaCl-water ratio changes. A saturated solution of
NaCl will do the job

Hi Viper, thanks for your reply. I'm currently using 2X 9V batteries, total 18V. When I'm sure the final product is really lye then I will find a better power source. Still figuring out how do make a better power supply drawn from wall socket without shorting the entire house and I'm still in experimental stage, I still wondering my end product is good enough lye. The bubble is slowing down though, but I'm not sure if the process is nearing its completion or my battery. I look forward to my end product. cheers.

 

[Viperoid]

yes when you no more bubbles it means all of your NaCl is converted to , NaOH , or you ust change your battery with a new one.
The length of the process is changes with the how much voltage you applied. BUt with the incrased voltage the process will be more violent also. So 220 v city current will be more faster process but more violent and dangerous.
Basically amount of produced NaOH is depends on how much NaCl you add.

You can calculate the theoric amount with this formula = (Amount of NaCl) grams * 0.68

I think there wont be big difference when NaCl-water ratio changes. A saturated solution of
NaCl will do the job

Hi Viper, thanks for your reply. I'm currently using 2X 9V batteries, total 18V. When I'm sure the final product is really lye then I will find a better power source. Still figuring out how do make a better power supply drawn from wall socket without shorting the entire house and I'm still in experimental stage, I still wondering my end product is good enough lye. The bubble is slowing down though, but I'm not sure if the process is nearing its completion or my battery. I look forward to my end product. cheers.

you can use adaptors also . They are more usable than batteries. You can look for adaptors label for how much DC it generates also.

 

[pitubo]

Your experiments are interesting!

Watch out with the chlorine, it is poisonous and corrosive. Keep your experiment outside.

A simple low voltage adapter will not short out the house when the low voltage side is shorted, besides, decent ones have an internal fuse. If you are really paranoid, you could put a simple light bulb inline with the primary (wall socket) side of your supply, that would limit the current and power through the circuit (an old tv repair man trick).

Be aware that NaOH eagerly reacts with atmospheric CO2 to form Na2CO3. This could seriously jeopardize your final yield, unless you take precautions during electrolysis and boiling down.

Be very careful when boiling down lye solution, lye is corrosive, but hot concentrated lye is SUPER corrosive!

Look at the sciencemadness.org forum, a much more appropriate place to discuss and learn about your endeavours. Perhaps they already have some threads devoted to lye making.

 

[Psychogardener]

Your experiments are interesting!

Watch out with the chlorine, it is poisonous and corrosive. Keep your experiment outside.

A simple low voltage adapter will not short out the house when the low voltage side is shorted, besides, decent ones have an internal fuse. If you are really paranoid, you could put a simple light bulb inline with the primary (wall socket) side of your supply, that would limit the current and power through the circuit (an old tv repair man trick).

Be aware that NaOH eagerly reacts with atmospheric CO2 to form Na2CO3. This could seriously jeopardize your final yield, unless you take precautions during electrolysis and boiling down.

Be very careful when boiling down lye solution, lye is corrosive, but hot concentrated lye is SUPER corrosive!

Look at the sciencemadness.org forum, a much more appropriate place to discuss and learn about your endeavours. Perhaps they already have some threads devoted to lye making.

Hi, thank you for the great advices! Yes, I'm kinda aware of the danger of these chemicals.
Do you have any idea how to prevent the atmospheric CO2 to react with NaOH? Can I prevent it by making a cover at the cathode side to close the bottle/beaker where NaOH is form? When you said boiling down, do you mean boiling it down immediately during the process or after the process is completed? Can I use a stainless steel pot? Thank you.

I'm sorry for asking too much question. I know this may not be the best place to ask, but I think that many here also will have problem getting lye and wish to make their own for our own purposes.

 

[pitubo]

Hi, thank you for the great advices! Yes, I'm kinda aware of the danger of these chemicals.
Do you have any idea how to prevent the atmospheric CO2 to react with NaOH? Can I prevent it by making a cover at the cathode side to close the bottle/beaker where NaOH is form? When you said boiling down, do you mean boiling it down immediately during the process or after the process is completed? Can I use a stainless steel pot?

Yes, covering the jar is probably the best idea. Boiling down should of course be done after electrolysis is finished or you would damage the electrolysis equipment. Stainless steel is probably your best option, unless you have a red copper or nickel pan (unlikely). Again, be very careful with boiling lye, when it boils it will spray little droplets of concentrated lye into the air. These will irritate your lungs and damage your eyes.

I will say it again: what you want to do is dangerous, especially the part of boiling down the lye. Please reconsider how much money, time and effort it takes to do this safely and responsibly and then compare how much money, time and effort it takes to acquire ready-made lye. I can get it in 10 kg buckets at chinese food supermarkets, who carry it for degreasing purposes. There are many more uses for lye and many more places to buy it. Finally, you do not absolutely need lye to extract DMT. An A/B extraction will work fine with washing soda (Na2CO3).

I'm sorry for asking too much question. I know this may not be the best place to ask, but I think that many here also will have problem getting lye and wish to make their own for our own purposes.

It is okay that you ask these questions here, so that curious people can read that this method is complicated and dangerous. So dangerous in fact that I think that it is out of scope of the Nexus. This is not kitchen top chemistry anymore, but serious chemical engineering. Unqualified and unequipped amateurs should stay far from it, or hang out at the sciencemadness.org site, which is dedicated to these kinds of experiments.

 

[endlessness]

Can you get calcium hydroxide? Can you get sodium carbonate or bicarbonate? Then you can mix them and make lye. Even if you can´t get calcium hydroxide you could make it with calcinated shells.

Also why lye, specifically? Most processes we deal with, can be done with alternative bases. For what use is it?

Im not sure about electrolysis and the safety of it. Did you mention Hydrogen gas forming? Be careful that`s explosive. Plus the other concerns already stated. I´d wait for others with better knowledge on this to answer.

Be safe, good luck

 

[Infundibulum]

yes when you no more bubbles it means all of your NaCl is converted to , NaOH , or you ust change your battery with a new one.
The length of the process is changes with the how much voltage you applied. BUt with the incrased voltage the process will be more violent also. So 220 v city current will be more faster process but more violent and dangerous.
Basically amount of produced NaOH is depends on how much NaCl you add.

You can calculate the theoric amount with this formula = (Amount of NaCl) grams * 0.68

I think there wont be big difference when NaCl-water ratio changes. A saturated solution of
NaCl will do the job

Hi Viper, thanks for your reply. I'm currently using 2X 9V batteries, total 18V. When I'm sure the final product is really lye then I will find a better power source. Still figuring out how do make a better power supply drawn from wall socket without shorting the entire house and I'm still in experimental stage, I still wondering my end product is good enough lye. The bubble is slowing down though, but I'm not sure if the process is nearing its completion or my battery. I look forward to my end product. cheers.

Very nice experiment! this is how NaOH is produced industrially.

Viperoid's input is however a tad wrong; after all NaCl is electrolysed, water (which is co-eletrolysing from the very beginning) will keep on elecrolysing. The latter means that as long as you supply voltage you will be seeing bubbles - in other words, bubbling is not a way to gauge when NaCl hydrolysis stopped.

One way to see when eletrolysis of NaCl ended is by the colour of the chlorine solution. You could boil off chlorine (solution should go from yellow to clear) and keep electrolysing. If it gets yellow again, then there is more to electrolyse; if not, you're done.

Another way to is by using a pH meter; you will have to calculate how much Na+ you added in the beginning and what pH that would give you in the end, but you will need some chemistry to do that. If you provide us with initial NaCl input, volume of solutions and pH we an find out.

Last but not least, chlorine. I presume you are aware of the extreme chlorine toxicity and you know to be careful....but if you do not edit your first post to add explicit warnings (preferably on top and in red colour) about the dangers of chlorine and the precautions one needs to take, I will delete this thread.

 

[Psychogardener]

Thanks for all the replies, I have added warning on my first post. Appreciate the inputs.

So, isn't lye the best bases for extraction? I read that some other alternatives like baking soda/washing soda/lime is not strong enough bases...and the yield will be poor in the end product. that's why I think I have to get lye. I'm glad to be wrong

I can get baking soda...but not washing soda(maybe they are somewhere yet to be discover by me) I read that I can convert it to washing soda by heating it in microwave for several hours.
I may be able to get lime at the gardening shop.

I will read and learn more before the time comes when I finally perform extraction.

 

[endlessness]

¨Best¨ is not really the appropriate word for chemistry I think. Each chemical has it´s characteristics.

Sure lye can be used in easy extractions, but other bases too. Trisodium phosphate seems to work well, according to Hyperspace Fool. Also teks like q21q21, Amor Fati or 69ron`s tek all use calcium hydroxide as a base and seem to work just well. Then you got people using sodium carbonate also in dry teks using vegetable oils as extraction solvent, or the ethanol sodium carb/vinegar tek posted in the eco friendly teks subforum.

You can make sodium carb from bicarb in the oven for a couple of hours or in the stovetop in a stainless steel or ceramic pot or pan.

You can also, as mentioned before, mix sodium carb and calcium hydroxide and make your lye.

Or this interesting electrolysis approach as corrected by infundibulum.

Many ways to skin a cat, as they say (although that´s a weird expression)

 

[pitubo]

Lye is most useful when doing Straight To Base extractions. The strong alkalinity of lye really helps to digest the plant material, thereby releasing the DMT from the cells and making it available to be picked up by the nonpolar extraction solvent.

When going for the Acid - Base extraction route, the DMT is brought out of the plant material by prolonged and repeated cooking in an acidic solution. When the DMT has been brought into solution by the acid cooking, the pH that can be attained with washing soda is sufficient to push the DMT freebase into the nonpolar layer.

The Acid - Base route is a little longer, but has the advantage that you can defat the acidified solution before basing and extracting, sometimes leading to a better quality of the extract.

Another advantage of lye over washing soda is that it does not produce CO2 bubbles when mixed with an acidic solution. This is however a manageable nuisance - don't dump in all of the washing soda at once.

The last advantage of lye that I can think of right now is that when you raise the pH really high, there is less chance of emulsions between the polar and nonpolar layer when extracting. Another way to prevent emulsions is to add a lot of salt to the nonpolar layer. This will also aid in pushing the DMT freebase out of the polar layer into the nonpolar solvent.

A microwave might not be the optimal tool for turning baking soda into washing soda. I think using a furnace or a conventional oven heat is better suited for this purpose.