making ....sublingual DMT window payne..

[1Starway7]

This thread is about making your own sublingual dmt infused into gelatin squares...

Please bear with me....This is my second attempt to put a purified dmt salt into small gelatin squares ....it still needs sublingual testing ..with a reversable maoi...

starts out after first making dmt citrate ...thats dryed into a powder.. ..[in jar in lower left corner of photo 1744].....then mixing the citrate powder into a shot glass [shown in photo].... with melted gelatin capsuls untill it is compleatly mixed...[i used a shot glass and stirer in photo 1744]

the gelatin is melted buy pipetting small amount of hot distilled water over the capsuls and constantly stirring.....
.
then pouring the thickened melted gelatin/dmt mix onto a mirror as seen in photo 1737...to dry...

when the gelatin is half dry it will feel like smooth slick plastic...and will dry further..

Alow the gelatin on the mirror to dry over night .... enough that squares can be cut from the gelatin... in a rubbery dry state .... photos..1746/...1747

after cutting the squares they will continue to dry even more untill they are hard and brittle....[cut squares when dry to touch and rubbery]

if you dont want brittle windowpaynes you can put the squares into an air tight jar with dark glass also keeping light out. and prevent more drying....

the compleatly hard /brittle gelatin squares will desolve under toung pretty fast..a little slower than the less dryed paynes...

in photo 1755 the squares are cut about a quarter inch each...and if desired alowed to dry like a hard plastic...

the... gelatin and dmt citrate.. will booth desolve easily in saliva under toung.....there will probibly be a need to take a...[ reversable maoi]... like in a tea..or chew rue seeds]....or something in a capsule 40 minutes before trying the sublingual squares...

The squares should work sublingually ...[if taken after a reversable maoi]....they desolve very easily in saliva...but may not work as well as ....5meo or lsd...two drugs that dont need an maoi....i need to know why this is so....when NNDMT needs an MAOI?


if the squares dont work well ..they are still active and can be used in capsules..with a reversable maio....dont try vaping dmt citrate...they need changed back to freebase for smoking... this is strictly for oral or sublingual use....

 

[Pandora]

Hmm interesting. Let us know if it works.

 

[Transform]

Ah, I branched this topic off from that other 'ideas bin' thread of yours already over here:

Thread 'windowpane DMT from its purified citrate'

Monday at 4:01 AM

After transforming .... un washed napatha pulls .... into... D. citrate.. [using the easy cleanup method].....then transforming the D citrate ......then..back into freebase....the results look quite impressive and clean!

Very white crystals! .... from the conversion back to freebase! zoom pictures... LAST TWO PICTURES ... [1700//1709]... AFTER DRYING OVER NIGHT APEARE VERY WHITE AND CLEAN AFTER SCRAPING IT UP!

looks very pure...

I just made ....DMT window payne....! similar to the way good ... LSD window payne used to come...

I simply melted empty clear...

• 1Starway7
• Replies: 5
• Forum: Other

Bear with me and I'll merge stuff back together appropriately - but, while we're at it, where would you say your posts on DMT citrate purification should fit in in all of this?

 

[Transform]

Regarding the topic here, did you weigh any of the ingredients or the product in its final form? I'm guessing you're still aiming for a microdosing approach with these, perhaps, like you mentioned previously?

It should be possible to keep the squares flexible and prevent them from drying out by adding a suitable proportion of a humectant such as glycerine. I'm also wondering whether agar-agar would make a viable, vegetarian alternative - or are your gelcaps already vegetable gelatin?

Regarding the question of MAOI, 5-MeO-DMT has a bit of MAOI activity of its own so it breaks down less rapidly than N,N-DMT does via that route. LSD, of course, just works and is not vulnerable to the action of MAO owing to the particularities of its more complex molecular structure. Perhaps you could dust your squares with a suitable amount of freebase harmalas once they're solid but still moist - and this is where having some dosage calculations at hand would come in useful.

 

[1Starway7]

Regarding the topic here, did you weigh any of the ingredients or the product in its final form? I'm guessing you're still aiming for a microdosing approach with these, perhaps, like you mentioned previously?

It should be possible to keep the squares flexible and prevent them from drying out by adding a suitable proportion of a humectant such as glycerine. I'm also wondering whether agar-agar would make a viable, vegetarian alternative - or are your gelcaps already vegetable gelatin?

Regarding the question of MAOI, 5-MeO-DMT has a bit of MAOI activity of its own so it breaks down less rapidly than N,N-DMT does via that route. LSD, of course, just works and is not vulnerable to the action of MAO owing to the particularities of its more complex molecular structure. Perhaps you could dust your squares with a suitable amount of freebase harmalas once they're solid but still moist - and this is where having some dosage calculations at hand would come in useful.

Even The hardened gelatin squares will soften up fairly quickly in saliva...and no i dont really have the dmt pre weighed?....i know is there is quit a decent amount of molecule in the napatha pulls..
i tryed some of the citrate days ago for 30 minutes ..and felt something ...but more ike a light stinulation...[no maoi used]
I think i sent a picture of a jar with napatha pulls that was just sitting next to the small freezer...and crystals were percipatating all through the napatha....just putting the solvent in the refrigerator for several hours after taking it out ...and first shaking the jar... produced hundreds of needels all through the napatha....
my last extraction was something over 500 grams of bark peices from the big island....
so yes i think it has a fair amount of the molecule in it...but i dont have accurate dosages..i figure the citric acid may ake uo 40 0r 50 percent and the rest dmt...

i may try to dropper on some rue on the squares and let it dry...or could i try some passion flower tea first?
And my dosages at first will be micro or better.....

Regarding the topic here, did you weigh any of the ingredients or the product in its final form? I'm guessing you're still aiming for a microdosing approach with these, perhaps, like you mentioned previously?

It should be possible to keep the squares flexible and prevent them from drying out by adding a suitable proportion of a humectant such as glycerine. I'm also wondering whether agar-agar would make a viable, vegetarian alternative - or are your gelcaps already vegetable gelatin?

Regarding the question of MAOI, 5-MeO-DMT has a bit of MAOI activity of its own so it breaks down less rapidly than N,N-DMT does via that route. LSD, of course, just works and is not vulnerable to the action of MAO owing to the particularities of its more complex molecular structure. Perhaps you could dust your squares with a suitable amount of freebase harmalas once they're solid but still moist - and this is where having some dosage calculations at hand would come in useful.

i think there is a dense amount of molecle in my last 500gram extraction...just not shure what the dosages are in each square...must be carefull..start at a low dose...
1498..represents 5 or 6 big napatha pulls or was it 8 pulls?? that i started out with........1501 and 15 02.. represents the napatha must have been fairly concintrated with molecule with crystals forming in the jar [outside] of the tiny dorm frige freezer... pictures.1503 and 1504 got very dense crystals sides of glass and thickly covered the bottom of jar when set it in large freezer overnight........photo ..1677 was after letting the dmt migrate from the dirty napatha into the acidic water...producing a cleaner dmt citrate that i evaperated out the water and crushed the dry dmt citrate...[photo 1677 drye dmt citrate...but not shure the percentage of citrate in the dmt citrate ...? i used 2 and one half full 00 capsuls of d citrate mixed into the geleton....how much per windowpayne...i dont know?
Have a question...ive never tryed sublingual...or oral dmt?...is it true that sublingual come up is genteler and slower than vaping and could last 0ne hour to 4 hours?


since ...cyclodextrin... is not good for hearing....i was concidering trying ....chitosan...to inhanse sublingul penetration ...
Chitosan (CS) acts as an effective permeation enhancer for fast sublingual delivery by enhancing drug solubility, binding to the mucosa, and opening tight junctions between epithelial cells. It improves absorption of hydrophilic drugs and macromolecules, often using mucoadhesive patches, films, or chitosan-based nanoparticles to speed up drug onset. i found out that ....

i found out that....Gelatin it self is a weaker form of .... ...mucoadhesive .... but chitosan ... [made from shell fish]... is superior ..mucoadhesive ..to gelatin...
National Institutes of Health (.gov) +3

• Mechanism of Action: Chitosan is a cationic polymer that, when applied to the mucosa, increases residence time and enhances paracellular transport by modulating tight junctions in the epithelium.

 

[JungleGhost]

Sounds awesome,nice werk!

 

[Transform]

Have a question...ive never tryed sublingual...or oral dmt?...is it true that sublingual come up is genteler and slower than vaping and could last 0ne hour to 4 hours?

This is correct - but oral DMT plus MAOI can still get every bit as intense as the vaped material given the right circumstances. The duration is to some extent dependant on the MAOI dose, re-dosing, and/or possibly any admixture material - as well as esoteric factors which we …ould ascribe to 'the positions of the planets' but likely have to do with seasonal, diurnal, and dietary factors influencing hormonal and metabolic enzyme expression ultimately at a genetic level (in my rational materialistic opinion). I've had aya and pharma experieces ranging from six hours of far-out craziness to half an hour of beatiful visuals which then grind to an abrupt halt.

Meditative practice allows one to go deeper into the experience, ime - but, as we know, there's a whole armory of techniques for driving the visions if one cares to look for them, of which I've not even begun to scratch the surface. I wouldn't even call myself a novice at this point.

 

[1Starway7]

This is correct - but oral DMT plus MAOI can still get every bit as intense as the vaped material given the right circumstances. The duration is to some extent dependant on the MAOI dose, re-dosing, and/or possibly any admixture material - as well as esoteric factors which we …ould ascribe to 'the positions of the planets' but likely have to do with seasonal, diurnal, and dietary factors influencing hormonal and metabolic enzyme expression ultimately at a genetic level (in my rational materialistic opinion). I've had aya and pharma experieces ranging from six hours of far-out craziness to half an hour of beatiful visuals which then grind to an abrupt halt.

Meditative practice allows one to go deeper into the experience, ime - but, as we know, there's a whole armory of techniques for driving the visions if one cares to look for them, of which I've not even begun to scratch the surface. I wouldn't even call myself a novice at this point.

Now that i have the stuff infused into the gell windows... I want to try other weaker reversable maois first....because although ive taken syrian rue in past in teas without problems...im not too crazy about rue....I dont like its taste.. ....believe it or not .... even ..coffie... contains trace maios! although too weak for this pourpose...

After some reading... ive found that a species of passion flower...[blue passion flower] [caerulea]....[contains high amounts] ....of reversable maois compared to most other spcies of passion flowers only have trace amounts.....

It can be brewed into a tea and is safe to drink....

.If this doesnt work well enough...i will probibly go with ...cappi vine ..ill have to order...

im still hunting ways to make ....sublingual gelatin windows.... simple and as safe to use as posible....would apreciate any new ideas towards this goal ...

 

[Transform]

im still hunting ways to make ....sublingual gelatin windows.... simple and as safe to use as posible....would apreciate any new ideas towards this goal ...

Dust them with freebase harmine, and make sure you do the arithmetic for the whole "dusty windows" production process

Passionflower also contains high amounts of flavonoids, which may or may not contribute to the desired effect.

 

[1Starway7]

Dust them with freebase harmine, and make sure you do the arithmetic for the whole "dusty windows" production process

Passionflower also contains high amounts of flavonoids, which may or may not contribute to the desired effect.

I dont have freebase harmine...i would have to extract it first...something ive never done corectly yet...i do have a bag of rue seed...i could dropper almost anything onto the square and alow it to dry ..

Going to try the paynes without anything first to see what happens....

.It was very surprising to find that one species of passion flower was high in maio!

I think sublingual absorption is slower than the speed of smoking or vaping....which may give atacking enzimes more time to find and destroy the dmt before it reaches the brain... if enzimes are that fast and heavily concintratted in the blood....im not shure....

I do like the idea of a more gentle and gradual come up instead of the usual blast off of of vaping....

if a safe way to speed up sublingual absorbtion could be found....[like trying the...[ Chitosan powder.]...i spoke of...[..because it increases bioavailability, acts as a mucoadhesive,

and enhances mucosal permeabilit]......with it. sublingual come up could be a little faster and may give 20 to 30 minute experiance....without taking maois!
........................................ [look up chitosan powder] ........notice its sublingual action...and saftey profile....it one of 5 choices.... to avoid using HPBCD....

Ive already noticed that a geletin window payne [when first placeing it under toung].... tends to adeare [or stick]...[[as a mucoadhesive,]......to the the wet tissue under the toung ...

keeping it in one place ....very close to the veins in sublingual area.....But acording to... AI.......[Chitosan]...one out of 5 choices listed......[is a safer substitute for HPBCD....
[its made from sea crustation shells].... has similar action....but clings to oral tissue even better and longer than gelatin..... it opens up a pathway for faster sublingual absorption..acording to AI...

I like the idea of a slower sublingual come up...but if the absorbtion could be speeded up a little...this might be a benifit...as in ..[not needing any MAOI]... would be nice...

 

[1Starway7]

I dont have freebase harmine...i would have to extract it first...something ive never done corectly yet...i do have a bag of rue seed...i could dropper almost anything onto the square and alow it to dry ..

Going to try the paynes without anything first to see what happens....

.It was very surprising to find that one species of passion flower was high in maio!

I think sublingual absorption is slower than the speed of smoking or vaping....which may give atacking enzimes more time to find and destroy the dmt before it reaches the brain... if enzimes are that fast and heavily concintratted in the blood....im not shure....

I do like the idea of a more gentle and gradual come up instead of the usual blast off of of vaping....

if a safe way to speed up sublingual absorbtion could be found....[like trying the...[ Chitosan powder.]...i spoke of...[..because it increases bioavailability, acts as a mucoadhesive,

and enhances mucosal permeabilit]......with it. sublingual come up could be a little faster and may give 20 to 30 minute experiance....without taking maois!
........................................ [look up chitosan powder] ........notice its sublingual action...and saftey profile....it one of 5 choices.... to avoid using HPBCD....

Ive already noticed that a geletin window payne [when first placeing it under toung].... tends to adeare [or stick]...[[as a mucoadhesive,]......to the the wet tissue under the toung ...

keeping it in one place ....very close to the veins in sublingual area.....But acording to... AI.......[Chitosan]...one out of 5 choices listed......[is a safer substitute for HPBCD....
[its made from sea crustation shells].... has similar action....but clings to oral tissue even better and longer than gelatin..... it opens up a pathway for faster sublingual absorption..acording to AI...

I like the idea of a slower sublingual come up...but if the absorbtion could be speeded up a little...this might be a benifit...as in ..[not needing any MAOI]... would be nice...

The gelatin squares will easily stick together if lightly licked...doubling the dose...


about the use of chitosan..
AI Overview



Chitosan enhances sublingual drug delivery by
acting as a mucoadhesive agent that increases residence time, opening tight junctions between cells to boost permeability, and stabilizing fragile compounds. As a biocompatible, biodegradable polymer, it improves bioavailability by helping drugs cross the mucosal barrier efficiently.
ScienceDirect.com +4

• Mucoadhesion: Chitosan adheres strongly to the mucosal surface under the tongue, significantly increasing the retention time of the drug formulation and preventing it from being swallowed quickly.
• Permeation Enhancement: It acts as a penetration enhancer by opening tight junctions in the buccal mucosa, which allows larger drug molecules (like peptides) to pass through more easily.
• Drug Protection: Chitosan nanoparticles protect sensitive drugs from enzymatic degradation within the oral cavity, maintaining their integrity until they reach the bloodstream.
• Improved Bioavailability: By enabling both sustained release and enhanced absorption, chitosan significantly improves the bioavailability of drugs administered through the sublingual route.
• Safe Carrier: It is biocompatible and biodegradable, making it a safe, non-toxic carrier for delivering both small molecule drugs and large molecule therapies (proteins/peptides).
  ScienceDirect.com +7

 

[1Starway7]

The gelatin squares will easily stick together if lightly licked...doubling the dose...


about the use of chitosan..
AI Overview



Chitosan enhances sublingual drug delivery by
acting as a mucoadhesive agent that increases residence time, opening tight junctions between cells to boost permeability, and stabilizing fragile compounds. As a biocompatible, biodegradable polymer, it improves bioavailability by helping drugs cross the mucosal barrier efficiently.
ScienceDirect.com +4

• Mucoadhesion: Chitosan adheres strongly to the mucosal surface under the tongue, significantly increasing the retention time of the drug formulation and preventing it from being swallowed quickly.
• Permeation Enhancement: It acts as a penetration enhancer by opening tight junctions in the buccal mucosa, which allows larger drug molecules (like peptides) to pass through more easily.
• Drug Protection: Chitosan nanoparticles protect sensitive drugs from enzymatic degradation within the oral cavity, maintaining their integrity until they reach the bloodstream.
• Improved Bioavailability: By enabling both sustained release and enhanced absorption, chitosan significantly improves the bioavailability of drugs administered through the sublingual route.
• Safe Carrier: It is biocompatible and biodegradable, making it a safe, non-toxic carrier for delivering both small molecule drugs and large molecule therapies (proteins/peptides).
  ScienceDirect.com +7

just tryed 1 and 1/2 gelatin square...but first put 30 rue seed inder toung. for 10 minutes.....i have no idea how much dmt is in one square...i suspect its less than i thought....

about 30 or more minutes after letting the payne desolve under toung...before feeling anything....

I.. felt different ...everything in the room took on a special beauty of a sorts...[.I felt really relaxed..wanted to stare at everything around me....[could have been the rue] almost like in a stooper or a little catonic?

felt like the end of an acid trip....

items in room seemed to take on a special meaning i seemed to notice drawrs and cabnets apeared far away ten somewhat close..

this was far from anything even near a heavy trip...i think the dosage may have beem somewhat low...

 

[Transform]

.....i have no idea how much dmt is in one square...i suspect its less than i thought....

precisely the reason why I've been encouraging you to do the arithmetic

Good test, though - and there's much to be said for starting low.

 

[1Starway7]

precisely the reason why I've been encouraging you to do the arithmetic

Good test, though - and there's much to be said for starting low.

Im not done yet...... The issue has to be that the amount of dmt ...per payne...was too low or other more critical reasons...just because dmt is a salt and it absorbs in saliva or water quickly doesnt tell the whole story...it can still fail to pass the sublingual barrier fast enough... NNDMT ... has always had this problem with sublingual absorbtion....

The rue seed ...[about 30] .... defenantly worked sublingually!... i could feel its affects easily...[im not crazy about taking rue]

personally i think the actives didnt get through the sublingual barrier fast or compleatly enough ...or the dose was too low per square...the paynes desolved fairly quickly.....[.about 2 minutes].... or little more.....and i even kept most of the... bitter saliva... in the under toung area ..... avoiding swallowing it for up to an aditional 15 minutes after the payne melted........

I experianced a.... catonic stooper like state.... where i just sat starring at objects around the room...and those objects like.. electric wall sockets ....light switches...drawers..cabnets....even the couch seemed like it was inflated with air and trying to float off of the floor.. ....even my round dome shaped centrafuge sitting under a chair was trying to become a flying saucer getting ready to tae off... but all of this could have been my imagenation...concidering my past LSD experiances...

But i felt the sublingual rue ......that stuff ......free falls through the oral tissue easily .... strait into the blood stream......

I could just add more molecule to one or two paynes..then re try it...or try the ....chitosan...i spoke of......

 

[1Starway7]

Im not done yet...... The issue has to be that the amount of dmt ...per payne...was too low or other more critical reasons...just because dmt is a salt and it absorbs in saliva or water quickly doesnt tell the whole story...it can still fail to pass the sublingual barrier fast enough... NNDMT ... has always had this problem with sublingual absorbtion....

The rue seed ...[about 30] .... defenantly worked sublingually!... i could feel its affects easily...[im not crazy about taking rue]

personally i think the actives didnt get through the sublingual barrier fast or compleatly enough ...or the dose was too low per square...the paynes desolved fairly quickly.....[.about 2 minutes].... or little more.....and i even kept most of the... bitter saliva... in the under toung area ..... avoiding swallowing it for up to an aditional 15 minutes after the payne melted........

I experianced a.... catonic stooper like state.... where i just sat starring at objects around the room...and those objects like.. electric wall sockets ....light switches...drawers..cabnets....even the couch seemed like it was inflated with air and trying to float off of the floor.. ....even my round dome shaped centrafuge sitting under a chair was trying to become a flying saucer getting ready to tae off... but all of this could have been my imagenation...concidering my past LSD experiances...

But i felt the sublingual rue ......that stuff ......free falls through the oral tissue easily .... strait into the blood stream......

I could just add more molecule to one or two paynes..then re try it...or try the ....chitosan...i spoke of......

Show original results





AI Overview



Chitosan powder is a well-studied, natural, and biodegradable absorption enhancer that can significantly improve the sublingual absorption of hard-to-absorb substances
. Its effectiveness in the oral cavity is derived from its mucoadhesive properties (sticking to the mucus membrane to increase residence time) and its ability to transiently open the tight junctions between epithelial cells, allowing drugs to pass through (paracellular transport).
Chitosan Indonesia +2
DMT Citrate is expected to work significantly better than DMT Freebase with chitosan for sublingual absorption.

Why Chitosan Works Better with DMT Citrate
Chitosan requires an acidic environment to become protonated (positively charged) and functional as a permeability enhancer.
ScienceDirect.com +1

• Chitosan + Citrate (Salt): Chitosan is soluble in organic acids like citric acid. A DMT citrate salt combined with chitosan will maintain the necessary acidic environment for the chitosan to protonate and "open" the mucosal tight junctions, leading to higher absorption.
• Chitosan + Freebase: DMT freebase is insoluble in water and requires a lower pH to become soluble. In the relatively neutral pH of saliva (pH 6–7), plain chitosan and DMT freebase might not interact effectively, reducing its ability to enhance absorption.
  National Institutes of Health (.gov) +2

Mechanisms of Action
Chitosan improves drug delivery through several mechanisms relevant to sublingual administration:

• Mucoadhesion: The cationic amino groups in chitosan bind to the negatively charged salivary mucus, creating a "drug reservoir" that keeps the DMT in contact with the tissue longer.
• Tight Junction Modulation: It reversibly interacts with tight junction proteins (like claudins), allowing paracellular transport.
• Improved Solubility: Chitosan, especially in citrate form, helps dissolve the drug, which is critical for absorption in the oral cavity.
  ScienceDirect.com +3

Considerations for Use

• Chitosan Type: Low-molecular-weight chitosan often shows better absorption enhancement properties compared to high-molecular-weight, which is better for sustained release.
• Taste/Texture: Chitosan powder may have an unpleasant texture. Formulation as a sublingual film or tablet is usually preferred in pharmaceutical applications.
• Reversibility: Chitosan’s opening of tight junctions is reversible and does not damage the epithelium, making it safe for mucosal delivery.
  National Institutes of Health (.gov) +3

Disclaimer: This information is for educational purposes based on pharmacological studies of drug delivery systems. The substance mentioned is regulated in many jurisdictions.

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