Meaningless Trips.

[Mistletoe Minx]

it always surprises me how different people draw different conclusions from psychedelic experiences. I suppose it shouldn't because these experiences beyond a certain point are so subjective. I was reading a few trip reports here that spoke of the ability to control the experience. The possibility that deep down in the DMT tunnel, if one took enough spice, one could begin to exert control over the visions. This was considered very desirable...to become 'The One' in your very own 'Matrix'.

Im by no means an experienced 'psychonaut. Im not even sure I have ever had a DMT experience. I think I have, once, certainly something very much like what I read here. But the overriding conclusions I have drawn from psychedelic experiences generally has been that I must abandon myself to a fate I have not chosen for myself. And it is the recognition that I am not the master of my fate that ultimately provides a scaffold for a logic of love and forgiveness for both myself and others. There is a moral aspect to the absense of control.

Whats more, for me the desire to have control over fate is a form of attachment that claws me back from the more profound moments a peak can offer. In fact, I think the search for meaning itself in a trip is a clawing form of attachment that drags me back. Maybe Im a 'da da' tripper? In any case, for me the nectar of a trip, the sweet healing honey I seek in them is to just be. To have the self dissolve and all the needs, desires, meanings and purposes to dissolve along with it, and to just sit around and be a part of the universe for a while. Thats the destination Im looking for if I can get to it. To be conscious without being prodded by the nagging concerns of a self is a wonderful thing. To drag meanings, purposes, questions and other concerns of the self into an experience in which the self is annihilated seems a little futile in my opinion but then I guess everyone is different.

So many people seem to be looking for answers in their trips, to be using them as a kind of psycho-theraputic tonic. Isn't the tonic just to have a break from yourself? A little holiday away from you?

I wonder if other people have a similar feeling.

 

[fractaloctopus]

For myself it's both. The ego dissolution is amazing and having "myself" dissolved to the point of being one with everything is a very important aspect of my journeys. But just as important are the experiences before and more importantly after the ego dissolution. Before it's about feeling the layers of myself peeled away one by one. Getting down to the core of my being and then going beyond it. Afterwards it's about feeling myself coalesce into a new form of my being. During this phase I try to consciously pick and choose what I let return to what small degree I am able to. I used to use these substance in a very recreational way; purely for that escape from the daily grind of life. Now I use them to examine and remove the "grind" from my daily life so I can just be left with a pure, happy life.

 

[anrchy]

Who said they can control the trip? Ive been able to change certain aspects of some but these were low doses and i never had actual control.

I dont necessarily dose to get answers, and never specific ones. I usually get what i need. I dont use dmt to "get away from myself that seems like a strange way of looking at it imo.

My use has been strongly therapeutic. It does this to me on its own. I dont" look" for answers, they are usually very obvious.

 

[Mistletoe Minx]

@fractaloctopus

yeah, I get some of that. I wouldn't say I have the ability to pick and choose aspects of myself as I am 'reassembled', For better or worse, I come back in my entirety warts and all.

Well, there are differences. Perhaps Im mellower and perhaps Im a little more considerate of others, but these differences seem to stem from me being clearer about who I am. The Psychedelic experience seems to be a great way to clear out the cobwebs from my soul. Its like I send off my self to the laundrette for a few hours and when it comes back its all cleaned, warm and fuzzy and all the stains and dirt, the stresses and strains that have built up since the last wash are gone. To that extent the experience is 'healing' but it is healing in the same way any recreational activity is. A brisk walk along the local beach amounts to a similar thing, if less dramatic. I feel refreshed but of course, I am always present on the beach.

And actually, despite there being usually a determination to reform my behavior in some way after a trip, in time this determination erodes. I'm reminded of Dr. Strassman's chapter in The Spirit Molecule on to what extent the DMT experiences modified his participants' behavior. Very very little was the conclusion. In spite of the fact that they found the experience particularly profound, it didn't really change them in any significant respect.

Of course, everyone is different.


@anrchy

>> I dont use dmt to "get away from myself that seems like a strange way of looking at it imo.

its not so strange when you consider that ego death is a fairly common aspect of a psychedelic experience. More to the point, ego death is that part of the trip where all the dualistic boundaries between me and the world evaporate. Its feels like a state of being that approaches divinity and is the essence of the entheogenic experience. It sounds odd to me that people seek out psychedelic drugs for any other reasons. But, of course, thats just my damn ego insisting everyone be the same.

 

[anrchy]

I guess i assumed you were referring to escapism rather than ego death. I can relate with ego death on dmt and its extreme benefits.

I have had friends and family that notice changes in my behavior since my dmt use and some that dont notice it so much. I guess it all comes down to observational abilities as well as some self suggestion. I def feel different and my thought process has changed as well.

Most of my trips with DMT specifically contained messages that needed no deciphering what so ever. It was apparent as the information was being relayed to me in a very clear and precise manner. I rarely go in with a conscious intent, i always attempt to clear my mind as much as is possible anyway.

When i first dove in i had no idea what to expect except total immersion in another place. I had no clue that i would be recieving such strong and accurate lessons that often were very relevant to a recent occurence or mindset.

 

[Enoon]

>> I dont use dmt to "get away from myself that seems like a strange way of looking at it imo.

its not so strange when you consider that ego death is a fairly common aspect of a psychedelic experience. More to the point, ego death is that part of the trip where all the dualistic boundaries between me and the world evaporate. Its feels like a state of being that approaches divinity and is the essence of the entheogenic experience. It sounds odd to me that people seek out psychedelic drugs for any other reasons. But, of course, thats just my damn ego insisting everyone be the same.

Psychedelics are very versatile in how they can be used. I enjoyed very much the way you described just being part of the universe and I can see how that's a very healing and powerful experience.

However it's not the only thing psychedelics can do - Sometimes you take a dose high enough to be able to give you the ego-melting sensation but it just doesn't - instead you meet entities or have visions, sometimes you get messages, sometimes you get attacked. It seems silly not to try to interpret these experiences and try to find out what produced them.

Sometimes you can go in with specific intentions and even come out with specific results - at least with LSD this works.

I think we are, as beings, very multileveled and thus psychedelic use is also multileveled. Sometimes ego-death and merging with the divinity don't really help when you are struggling with psychological problems for example - it seems like an unreachable state of euphoria that you are only glimpsing at before you are pulled down again. Work on other levels needs to be done first... And this work can to some degree be done with psychedelics as well.

So no, I wouldn't say that ego-death is the essence of the psychedelic experience. It's one very powerful aspect of it. I do think that psychedelics are definitely not spiritual vending machines giving us bite-size and pre-packed answers nor that it should always be the point of taking them to "get something out of them". As if everything you do has to have some kind of profit, some palpable and calculatable benefit. I agree that it shouldn't always be that way, but sometimes it is and this is also ok. Many people have found healing from psychedelics and there's nothing wrong with seeking it.

 

[Mistletoe Minx]

@ Enoon

Thanks for your reply.

>> I think we are, as beings, very multileveled and thus psychedelic use is also multileveled. Sometimes ego-death and merging with the divinity don't really help when you are struggling with psychological problems for example - it seems like an unreachable state of euphoria that you are only glimpsing at before you are pulled down again. Work on other levels needs to be done first... And this work can to some degree be done with psychedelics as well.


There seem to be mixed messages concerning appropriate use of psychedelics. For example, at erowid, emotional and psychological upheaval are listed as contraindications for taking DMT, LSD or Psilocybin. And it is part of psychedelic lore to be mindful of your 'set'. On the other hand, there is a good deal of research which would advocate the palliative use of these drugs in the terminally ill or in those with life threatening conditions, who often are in profound states of emotional upheaval.

So I am aware that its a complex mix of factors that produces a worthwhile experience and that there are healing / therapeutic aspects to it.

I do think people should be cautious. If they find themselves really searching for answers about some personal issue they might want to ask themselves whether or not self medicating psychedelics is wise.


>> I do think that psychedelics are definitely not spiritual vending machines giving us bite-size and pre-packed answers nor that it should always be the point of taking them to "get something out of them".

yeah, it sometimes feels a bit like recreational experiences have been devalued and perhaps thats what Im really reacting to. I kind of think the 'plant teachers' would get a little frustrated if people forgot to just gawp and marvel at the astonishing sensory displays that become manifest on these substances.

All the best.

 

[Cazman043]

They say in Tibet, one must first have a powerful desire to the physical world. To gain his material wealth. Once this is achieved, he realised it does not bring forth happiness so he turns to god. In turning to god he has a strong desire to meet or become god, this is still a form of seeking happiness. How can you seek for something that is already there? It is in front of you, it is making the sounds, creating the sight, feeling the space, experiencing life in its infinite multiplicity. To seek is the game, it is hiding within, it is you all along. Why justify it, why word it? You can't word it, you can't seek it... Observe, experience... BE!

 

[Jox]

Mistletoe Minx,

I totally agree with you. But I see a question very controversial. It took me years to understand what is going on in this forum. I think the first aspect is that those who smoke DMT, majority here go for "experiences" religious of a sort. They usually don't take any harmalas. Once the harmalas are in, and in higher numbers the "unpleasantness" takes place, and people freak out, thus no growth since they stop it, and go back to just smoking.

On the other hand those who take Aya, take it in small amounts, and usually when they trip in Peru with shamans, as on other Aya forum.

I feel very isolated in my approach, Link 1 to some of my threads that deal with this topic, and I have not reached to any meaningful conversation. There are very few members here and elsewhere that have my approach, which is healing by stepping in in our own hell, and purifying it.

I don't see smoking DMT, LSD, or low doses of mushrooms, or any substance to do anything else but reinforcing our ego.

The preparation for the endeavour of learning from trips is either Zen or psychoanalysis that is the best tool for integration.

But this is just me, I do respect that majority has theological approach, but it is not mine.

I really hope I am not flaming the thread, so,please don't be alarmed, it is just me.

 

[Cazman043]

Mistletoe Minx,

I really hope I am not flaming the thread, so,please don't be alarmed, it is just me.

Don't worry brother, your points are completely valid, and trust me, i know where you're coming from Very much have i practiced the ability to do "nothing". To have a still mind, and the practice of having a still mind and bringing it into a trip is extremely rewarding in itself and has extremely beneficial results. We must suffer to learn the processes of the conditioned mind.

 

[Viperoid]

I think , from my personal experineces , i dont think that you will get an answer to a specfic question after a DMT trip. I dont think that DMT works in this way. I dont think that you will think a question before you smoke and while the trip seing things about the question and after the trip getting an answer or conclusion.

What you will get is from a trip is the what DMT will show to you. I belive that there is a specific thing that you will see in the trip like dissolution of ego , unity of all living and non living things , the truth that the relativity of the reality and some more.The thing is how you interpret this experiences. Some can may refer to god , some may belive that this could be true and the self is a lie , or some can belive that this experineces strong connection with after death or some could say it is just our minds and chemicals..

You see many of person can interpret this different but even how we interpret it the experince would never change and this experince will be still there.
And this amazes us because until a psychadelic experince we dont even have idea that there are feelings like that also.


One thing that i want to point also is that the visions. Even the core of the experience is same for many of us visions will be very specific to each person. So from that vision everyone can conclude something. We can also conclude from dreams . In the end all of them is our personal experince.

 

[Mistletoe Minx]

@ Jox

I think there are likely cultural differences in how people approach their drugs. For someone like me, who is deeply westernised, they are primarily a recreational activity. Psychedelic experiences are something I seek when I have time, when Im in a good place psychologically and when the chances of a painful experience are low. I actively seek to avoid the introverted aspects of a trip in preference for aesthetic external elements, the visuals, the effect they have on music and so on. Ofcourse, on psychedelics I have a curiously dissociated view of the inner workings of my own mind, and that is also fascinating to explore, but again this isn't your usual kind of introversion but rather one takes an almost objective view of mind.

I think people possibly take issue with your approach because it is so confrontational. You sought out the demons in your experiences and battled them. It sounds like a method that might well induce panic attacks in some people, and ofcourse communities like this would probably want to minimize the occurance of that kind of episode because it is exactly that kind of bad press that is used against these drugs politically. Perhaps its a method that has value, but typically drug based psychotherapy particularly for axieties and traumas would employ empathogens like MDMA rather than DMT. And then there would be careful attention to setting and experienced sitters on hand.

Im sorry to hear your partner has BPD. An ex partner of mine had the same condition and it is a terrible affliction for all involved. I recognise a lot of the voices you mention. If DMT helped you both then thats a great thing.

 

[Global]

I would consider the "master of your own fate" issue as such. Arriving in hyperspace and demanding control is sort of akin to a baby being born and wanting to run the household. It can try, much to its own frustration, but things just go more smoothly when you let the "grown-ups" run the show. It's not to say that you can't have control, or won't ever have control, but why not let your "tour guides" have the reigns? They seem far more knowledgeable and capable than you in those realms. Imagine they go to show you the most amazing thing you could ever lay eyes on, but instead at the beginning of the experience, you amateurishly decide to seize control of the situation and you never get to that mind boggling thing they have to show you because you were too busy letting your control-driven ego run the show.

 

[desal]

And actually, despite there being usually a determination to reform my behavior in some way after a trip, in time this determination erodes. I'm reminded of Dr. Strassman's chapter in The Spirit Molecule on to what extent the DMT experiences modified his participants' behavior. Very very little was the conclusion. In spite of the fact that they found the experience particularly profound, it didn't really change them in any significant respect.

Of course, everyone is different.

Definitely, this is why people seek out daily meditation practices, so that they can manifest these experiences with lasting effects, and clarity of mind without any temporary blast offs and come downs.

It seems like a lot of people genuinely believe that psychedelics change a person, but I've always felt that is an incorrect statement. (I might catch a lot of flak for this) but in my opinion, psychedelics don't change anybody, BUT they DO enable change in a person who otherwise would never have changed. (i say never have changed, and i mean this within reason, as everything appears to be constantly changing all the time, but some people rarely ever truly change.)

They allow you to see things in a new light, so you can change if you so desire to, but they definitely do not force change, and if you yourself do not follow up the experience with a daily practice of some sort, the experience will fade in time and you will return to the same state you were before you did the drug. What happens to you, is all up to you and what you choose to do with what has happened to you so far.

 

[anrchy]

I partially agree with your statement desal, except with low doses. A 50mg dose of dmt absolutely changes you. I also believe it depends on the situation. If you consider two possibilities, 1 being you dose and there is a lasting effect that requires you tend to it in irder for the changes to be instilled. 2 you dose and the experience effects you in the way you will never forget.

Dmt is usually a catalyst for change i agree, but this is not always the case. I know of atleast 2 experiences of mine that changed me and other that gave me the tools necassary for change.

 

[○]

I partially agree with your statement desal, except with low doses. A 50mg dose of dmt absolutely changes you. I also believe it depends on the situation. If you consider two possibilities, 1 being you dose and there is a lasting effect that requires you tend to it in irder for the changes to be instilled. 2 you dose and the experience effects you in the way you will never forget.

Dmt is usually a catalyst for change i agree, but this is not always the case. I know of atleast 2 experiences of mine that changed me and other that gave me the tools necassary for change.