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Mechanism questions everything: a quest toward pure awareness
- Thread starter northape
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Funny, the two things you've picked out there I have experienced. Both were really hard to deal with.
But honestly, the belief that even after death there is still work to be done, this scares me the most. I've been shrunk to the size of atoms and experienced the endless frantic movement of that scale. That nothing material is ever, ever still.
The idea that consciousness might follow the same rule, that it never ends, this is harder to intergrate for me.
Losing identity or breaking your mind into a loop cascade, I've integrated those experiences in less than 12 months.
The never ending fractal web of awareness still scares the crap out of me
Years ago, I insufflated an ungodly dose of yopo, which led me to believe that I had literally died. Naturally, I was terrified and disoriented while navigating this space, until I noticed a sensation in my body, and sort of went into it. Subsequently, the trance opened up to what I would describe as the most ecstatic experience of my life, leading me to believe that I had attained literal immortality. Gradually, the trip wore off and I came to understand that I hadn't actually transformed into some kind of immortal diety, but at that point, I was so blissed out that it didn't matter. Incidentally, the following day marked the only time that I was able to get along with a challenging coworker. For several nights, afterwards, I had energetic flashbacks of the profound openness that I experienced during this trip, which sounds similar to what people experience with 5-meo-dmt. While I've had powerful ego-death experiences with Ayahuasca and DMT, this experience was unique in terms of the literal way that I perceived it, as it was happening.
I'm curious if you've read, In Love with the World: A Monk's Journey Through the Bardos of Living and Dying, by Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche, and if so, what your thoughts are about his NDE, as described in the book.
With regard to shamatha and dzogchen, I listened to a great podcast episode earlier today about the intersection of these topics, which I shared in this thread:
I'm curious if you've read, In Love with the World: A Monk's Journey Through the Bardos of Living and Dying, by Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche, and if so, what your thoughts are about his NDE, as described in the book.
With regard to shamatha and dzogchen, I listened to a great podcast episode earlier today about the intersection of these topics, which I shared in this thread:
Mechanism
Established member
This thread is getting good. I think we're really getting a glimpse into people's psyches now. 
I think the last several posts really circle back to the original topic of this thread. If you intuitively know and internalize that the awareness observing the body is the real you then why get so torn up over the loss of the body? It'd be like getting your car totaled. Sucks, but you can always get a new one.
I'm a HUGE parapsychology nerd and I've read a lot of personal accounts of NDEs, and the vast majority of them are positive experiences. Only a small percentage are negative, and it seems to be when people carry some kind of guilt over the way they've lived their lives. What did Rinpoche have to say about his? I'll be really surprised if he found it unpleasant.
I think the last several posts really circle back to the original topic of this thread. If you intuitively know and internalize that the awareness observing the body is the real you then why get so torn up over the loss of the body? It'd be like getting your car totaled. Sucks, but you can always get a new one.
I'm a HUGE parapsychology nerd and I've read a lot of personal accounts of NDEs, and the vast majority of them are positive experiences. Only a small percentage are negative, and it seems to be when people carry some kind of guilt over the way they've lived their lives. What did Rinpoche have to say about his? I'll be really surprised if he found it unpleasant.
“The crack of the window, that’s the gap... through that, you could connect with the light, that light is your true nature, who you are.”
There's so much good stuff on youtube, but the algorithm is constantly leading me astray (the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak).
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Mechanism
Established member
Haha, I like this guy. I'm probably going to read his book.
I see you compared the experience to the toad venom. I had two doses a week apart, then took 9 years to integrate the experience. REALLY strong stuff, reality shattering even.
By the way, this made me laugh out loud. Reads like a line from a British comedy.
I see you compared the experience to the toad venom. I had two doses a week apart, then took 9 years to integrate the experience. REALLY strong stuff, reality shattering even.
I think often it's not about the body, but precisely about the loss of "me". That consciousness continues doesn't necessarily mean that what I call "me" continues. I imagine cups of water being poured into an ocean, and then new cups being filled from it. The water is the same and in the end all water molecules will be inside a cup again, but they will never be the same exact glass of water. I (and most people, I think) am attached to this illusory "me" that not only will end up dissolving, but is already partially dissolving and being refilled at every moment. Fully realizing that last part will be helpful in letting go of the fear of complete dissolution, I believe.
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My take on it is a bit mundane. I think that his NDE strongly depends on the lineage or pedigree he came from. A simple Joe would never be born into a meditator's family. You can believe in karma or western genetic science, but the result is the same. Yes, you have similar capacity as Rinpoche, but to get to his state and openness, you need to do an equal amount of work. Our spiritual experience entirely depends on the quality of our energy body. That's one of the reasons people have Kundalini syndrome and similar complications. Try running a strong current through a thin wire, and it's going to burn.
Even his Buddhist education and long-term practice in this life are fruits of past karma. I see Rinpoche as an example of what is possible. We can't say much about his NDE, but how he worked with it and what he took with him are possible to see. I remember the guy before and after his pilgrimage, and the difference is apparent. For me, his story is an inspirational one, making me more motivated to practice. Rather than trying to figure out what he saw, I'd be glad to visit the same vistas and see for myself.
This thread is getting good. I think we're really getting a glimpse into people's psyches now.
I think the last several posts really circle back to the original topic of this thread. If you intuitively know and internalize that the awareness observing the body is the real you then why get so torn up over the loss of the body? It'd be like getting your car totaled. Sucks, but you can always get a new one.
I'm a HUGE parapsychology nerd and I've read a lot of personal accounts of NDEs, and the vast majority of them are positive experiences. Only a small percentage are negative, and it seems to be when people carry some kind of guilt over the way they've lived their lives. What did Rinpoche have to say about his? I'll be really surprised if he found it unpleasant.
I believe you're right about there being some sense of guilt about how we lived our lives. But this is very individual. One person may have intense guilt about accidentally hitting a rabbit with their car. Another may be able to launch a global conflict that kills millions with less guilt than the rabbit killer.
However there is more to it than that. Not caring that we will die suggests not caring about who we leave behind. Children to raise or loved ones who need our help.
Its possible to hold two feelings simultaneously. Not caring that I'm about to die for me personally. Whilst being aware that I am leaving people with extra workload.
And this is just the surface level connotations about leaving this place. Doesnt even address the endless fractal awareness angle.
There is a reason why some humans live on mountains in celibacy. Please notice that the vast majority of these humans are male. Try reaching the same level of spiritual freedom living as a single mother in a city.
This does not mean that we cannot be at peace with our own impending mortality. But unless we live a truly isolated and spiritually 'selfish' life, there is a lot more to consider than just 'I dont care if I die.'
@Mechanism this thread makes me think you would like to read "Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness" (i attach the pdf here, it's a short text)
@fink i understand your fear. Specifically i used to fear eternity in general, but then i realized that what i feared was eternity through the lens of time. Like an infinite amount of time, a life that never ends, no rest ever. It's different from timeless eternity. If you change your perspective on eternity, by removing the human concept of time from the equation, it becomes timeless, like an ever-present instant, and it becomes the opposite of scary ime.
While an intrusive thought that i sometimes have is the one of having to live through eternity through my own mind, all alone. I recognize this as an illusion, first of all the illusion of having a separated mind, a "me" with boundaries, and again the illusion of infinite time.
On the contrary i don't fear dying anymore. That's why i'm curious about what you mean about it having deeper layers. In one occasion i almost died because a passionfruit seed blocked my airways and i couldn't breathe. I was terrified at first but, as i realized there was nothing more that i could do to survive, and i stopped desperately trying to breathe, fear went away. It was even before DMT opened me to the possibility death wasn't the end of everything. Wait maybe that's why hahaha. No honestly now i would only fear the possibility of rebirth in a hell realm if they exist in the literal sense. But if they exist in the literal sense, i probably have already been there before.
@fink i understand your fear. Specifically i used to fear eternity in general, but then i realized that what i feared was eternity through the lens of time. Like an infinite amount of time, a life that never ends, no rest ever. It's different from timeless eternity. If you change your perspective on eternity, by removing the human concept of time from the equation, it becomes timeless, like an ever-present instant, and it becomes the opposite of scary ime.
While an intrusive thought that i sometimes have is the one of having to live through eternity through my own mind, all alone. I recognize this as an illusion, first of all the illusion of having a separated mind, a "me" with boundaries, and again the illusion of infinite time.
On the contrary i don't fear dying anymore. That's why i'm curious about what you mean about it having deeper layers. In one occasion i almost died because a passionfruit seed blocked my airways and i couldn't breathe. I was terrified at first but, as i realized there was nothing more that i could do to survive, and i stopped desperately trying to breathe, fear went away. It was even before DMT opened me to the possibility death wasn't the end of everything. Wait maybe that's why hahaha. No honestly now i would only fear the possibility of rebirth in a hell realm if they exist in the literal sense. But if they exist in the literal sense, i probably have already been there before.
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Now is the age of householders. Yes, there are still solitary practitioners in caves, but they are a dying breed. We're in a global transition phase, and no one knows where it will lead. I feel like genuine Dharma is well hidden today, and we have lots of superficial stuff. Imo, it's better to work for your family and practice inside your mind, unbeknownst to others. Why put yourself in the limelight if not for fame and monetary gain?
People really dislike this term, levels (layers here). It's like a direct insult to their sense of self and worth. Chill, everyone; it's just a word
I can put it differently. Psychedelics or life can produce lessons that wipe out your previous understanding by shattering it into pieces. A quick death could be very seamless and easy, compared to suffering for months in a bed with constant pain and inability to do anything. There is always a worse situation than what you can imagine. Our worldview is based on life experiences and is biased. Trying to compare yourself to others is kind of nonsense, too. Yes, we share some general traits, but every mind is a universe. All my responses on the topic of death are about being open and not stuck in the knowledge of something. It just stagnates you, because even if that knowledge was alive at some point, it went into the domain of memories long ago. The only real knowing is not knowing, or once again, being open and present. Hope this spin on things is a bit more clear.
Wait i wrote "layers" haha i didn't feel insulted by it but rather worried there could be a deeper layer of fear.People really dislike this term, "levels." It's like a direct insult to their sense of self and worth. Chill, everyone; it's just a word
I can put it differently. Psychedelics or life can produce lessons that wipe out your previous understanding by shattering it into pieces. A quick death could be very seamless and easy, compared to suffering for months in a bed with constant pain and inability to do anything. There is always a worse situation than what you can imagine. Our worldview is based on life experiences and is biased. Trying to compare yourself to others is kind of nonsense, too. Yes, we share some general traits, but every mind is a universe. All my responses on the topic of death are about being open and not stuck in the knowledge of something. It just stagnates you, because even if that knowledge was alive at some point, it went into the domain of memories long ago. The only real knowing is not knowing, or once again, being open and present. Hope this spin on things is a bit more clear.
Yeah i meant the moment of death, what happens before death is another fear in itself.
I know that sticking to acquired knowledge is ultimately pointless, i would love to hold a nice scheme of how everything works, to crystallize knowledge and even states of mind, even if i know it's impossible. But i try to never stop doubting and renewing that knowledge to keep it alive
Thank you for this CosmicRiver. I am fully onboard with the illusion of endless time. I've only accepted that I was going to die once, while free diving. I had beaten my record for time spent not breathing, but with this came an acceptance of never needing to breath again. The euphoric acceptance was so powerful, only lasted a few moments. Then through a different part of my awareness I rejected the acceptance and managed to push to the surface.
I can agree that there can be a state achieved where there nothing to fear about the personal act of dying. Some days I get close to having had enough of all this anyways.
Everything I know for a fact about death comes from seeing it happen to other people and the traumatic fallout for those left behind. The rest is just my own spiritual speculation and madness, not fact.
I'm certain that if I was dying now, there would be a strong element concerning those I leave behind. In a perfect world, I would not die until no one cares about it. But this is most likely impossible for me unless a lot changes.
The fear of the deeper mystery that you are curious about. It's interesting. In day to day life it's fairly easy for me to be logical and practical about it all. It's deep in meditation, when actually experiencing the magnitude of the non-physical fractal web, that it can become overwhelming.
Like you said 'the ever present instant' helps fear subside. But the deeper I go on that, the more I realise how important this fleeting, time governed experience is.
Eternity in the void begins and ends in the same instant because there is nothing to remember about it. So all that is to be experienced is now and here, using the memory generated concept of time.
The deeper layers all relate to things I should have done already and the other lifeforms I need (desire?) to continue being here for before I die.
A quick glance towards the certainty that things will carry on just fine without me can solve that fear.
But it would still be preferable from my perspective if I can continue to be a father, a husband, a family member and a friend far beyond this moment now.
Yes, it's my personal joke with layers or levels at this point. I see the mind as an onion bulb, and you remove each layer until you reach the core, which is empty, by the way.
Talking about a personal attitude toward death is kind of meaningless. You could easily deceive yourself, and the real test would be at the precise moment of the event. Sadly, no one but you would know how you reacted. So I don't give much value to personal comments. Like I said, on the surface level, I'm fine with death. When it comes to my deeper parts, the situation could be very different. People in general are much more attached to life than they realize.
This is a clean and intelligent perspective. Is it always a quest for limelight? Or is there some element of rebellion against the isolation of our own mind?
I don't think it's always 'look how great I am'. Most often it is just 'hellllloooooo....I am here!'
I feel that your family and social life are enough outer interactions. The spiritual quest is mostly a lonely endeavor, and any need to externalize it could be used as fuel to further your practice. However, it's an ideal. You see me talking about it all here
Sure, humans are social creatures. Even in Buddhism, you take refuge in Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha (a social circle of practitioners). We were never solitary creatures, but that's why it's so beneficial. By being alone, you go against your nature and are forced to dive deeper into your own world. For most people, that's unthinkable, and that's why solitary confinement is the harshest punishment beside a death sentence.
I think perhaps solitary confinement itself would be much easier if you didn't get reminded of it every day. When the food gets thrust under the door or by malicious guards disrupting your spiritual sanctuary.
Solitude with no hope of external contact must be a lot easier to accept.
Surely the need to externalize would evaporate if you were truly alone?
Solitude with no hope of external contact must be a lot easier to accept.
Surely the need to externalize would evaporate if you were truly alone?
A bit of a tangent here.
Does it not seem probable that negative behaviour does not arise from an innate desire to cause havoc?
To me it seem much more likely that the meanest, most selfish people on this planet are that way because it protects them from feeling the guilt of dying and leaving other people in distress because of it.
If everyone hates you, this is a very strong freedom.
Does it not seem probable that negative behaviour does not arise from an innate desire to cause havoc?
To me it seem much more likely that the meanest, most selfish people on this planet are that way because it protects them from feeling the guilt of dying and leaving other people in distress because of it.
If everyone hates you, this is a very strong freedom.
Even there, you can achieve a very high level, but I see such an experience mostly like a purgatory. It's a very hard path for mature souls.
I think so. You'd crave contact with others only if there's no clear goal and practice backing you up. Then there is a mystical aspect of spiritual practice in these conditions.
It plays a big part when the whole notion of reality starts to shift. My intuition tells me that a real cave yogi is not alone, and is maybe even more connected than we are.
It's a coping mechanism. They were babies at one point, and life made them mean. I subscribe to rebirth and karma. You can look at it as ancestral trauma and epigenetics. The end result would be very similar. Trying to judge others, thinking that they made bad choices, is shortsighted. The entire Cosmos acts through them. When a person embodies this kind of understanding, their whole life and personality start to shift. Compassion is a very important quality, both to yourself and others. A human usually learns it in a family setting. If you had a rough start in life, fixing it later on is very hard.
Mechanism
Established member
I always assumed it was because of a need for external validation. They have an internal void they're trying to fill and ironically the way to fill that void seems to be to just look into it.
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