Meditating Too Long Too Often?

[Voidmatrix]

Almost every night, for almost a year, I enjoy spending an hour at my altar with some cannabis and rue, falling in and out of process. I have been loving it. But, it seems it may be too much if a good thing (yet again).

I've noticed some cognitive declines with my memory, reasoning, and attention/concentration of which some degree of these effects could be traced to my precarious mental health and my long-term use of diphenhydramine, which i quite using a month ago. However, in doing a little research, it seems my meditation practice may also be a contributing factor.

To switch things up, I'm going to extend my morning meditation to 30 minutes and lower my evening meditation to 30 minutes. I will also be lowering my rue dosage. Will be playing around and experimenting to see what seems to work best while I condition myself for longer periods by having an hour long session once or twice a week.

Has anyone else experienced anything like this with meditation? Thank you for your feedback.

One love

 

[Jungleheart]

I've only had positive effects from meditating for longer times. I have had negative impacts of focus from cannabis and it especially impacts my ability to dream. Dreaming is too important for me now so I gave cannabis up. I would experiment with cutting or reducing cannabis before you change your meditation practice.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I've only had positive effects from meditating for longer times. I have had negative impacts of focus from cannabis and it especially impacts my ability to dream. Dreaming is too important for me now so I gave cannabis up. I would experiment with cutting or reducing cannabis before you change your meditation practice.

Before the extension of my meditation time my cannabis relationship and smoking habits drastically changed and I no longer smoke as often as I used to. And it doesn't impact my dreams really.

I had also made a jump from 20 to 30 minutes of regular meditation to a sudden 60 minute session everyday, which may have been a bit much and I may need go season myself by increasing my time incrementally.

Thank you for your feedback.

One love

 

[ShadedSelf]

I have similar thoughts as jungleheart, I find it hard to believe that meditation itself would cause negative effects, if anything it should help with what you are describing.
I would also point to the weed, but if you mention that you have cut down on it we can kinda rule that out.
I remember reading that rue seems to help with memory, but I guess we dont know much about long term use.

The only hypothesis that I have left is that increasing you meditation time is somehow increasing how much you interact with your own mind, like you trying to force yourself to reach those new time goals or "trying to meditate properly", etc.

Another possibility is that meditation is actually the cause, but that sounds strange to me.
Or that there is another external element like a depressive episode, stressfull situation..., this states can affect ones cognitive abilities quite a bit.

 

[dithyramb]

Not remarking on voidmatrix personally, but unconscious practice of anythin (meditation, psychedelics etc) can bring on negative results, including the opposite of their known benefits (memory enhancement etc). That being said, I would be suspicious of weed before I question the rue, but rue can also cause damage if used in the wrong way.

Too much meditation for me can cause a disconnect from physical reality. Then again anything can be a meditation, "active meditations" being an example of more grounding meditative practices.

Starting to watch this now, I don't know how related it is.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I have similar thoughts as jungleheart, I find it hard to believe that meditation itself would cause negative effects, if anything it should help with what you are describing.
I would also point to the weed, but if you mention that you have cut down on it we can kinda rule that out.
I remember reading that rue seems to help with memory, but I guess we dont know much about long term use.

The only hypothesis that I have left is that increasing you meditation time is somehow increasing how much you interact with your own mind, like you trying to force yourself to reach those new time goals or "trying to meditate properly", etc.

Another possibility is that meditation is actually the cause, but that sounds strange to me.
Or that there is another external element like a depressive episode, stressfull situation..., this states can affect ones cognitive abilities quite a bit.

I can understand the skepticism, however, too much of a good thing seems to be a real phenomenon. I think about fraternity hazing and people dying from water toxicity from ingesting too much water too quickly as an example.

You both may find this interesting.

According to the inverted U-shaped curve principle, too-much-of-a-good-thing-type adverse effects are caused by the same mechanisms and processes that also yield benefits. This model would predict that negative effects could occur with correct practice, and would be more likely at higher doses of practice or MRP. However, the location of inflection points could be further influenced by the following additional factors

I'm still in the research phase (and there's not a lot of research done on this topic), though only meditated for 30 minutes, but your observation about there being an impact from mental health may be valid, as I came across some information that spoke about meditation bringing about episodes of depression, anxiety, and resurfacing trauma (which is why I like longer ones to help me work on my own traumas). And my depression already effects me cognitively and those cognitive impacts may be influenced by too much meditation too often.

Thank you for chiming in to help me figure this out.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

Not remarking on voidmatrix personally, but unconscious practice of anythin (meditation, psychedelics etc) can bring on negative results, including the opposite of their known benefits (memory enhancement etc). That being said, I would be suspicious of weed before I question the rue, but rue can also cause damage if used in the wrong way.

Too much meditation for me can cause a disconnect from physical reality. Then again anything can be a meditation, "active meditations" being an example of more grounding meditative practices.

Starting to watch this now, I don't know how related it is.

Yes indeed, "everything in moderation, including moderation."

I'm presently going to use less of both in my meditation as I lower the time. Over time, as I look more into this, I will increase each one one at a time.

And I do feel an odd disconnect as well as a time acceleration in conjunction with what I briefly described above. And I'm looking into delving more into mindful activities as an adjunct and substitute for the time I'll be removing from my meditations.

And thank you as well, dithyramb.

One love

 

[Tomtegubbe]

I took a break from my meditation routine as I felt something was off. At some point I realized that my break was getting prolonged and I was building a threshold in getting back to it. However, once I did, I think the break did good. I was re-evaluating my methods and goals. I think it's good idea to experiment and adjust your routine.

I also believe that giving meditation a try without weed might be useful, even if you decide to go back for it.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I took a break from my meditation routine as I felt something was off. At some point I realized that my break was getting prolonged and I was building a threshold in getting back to it. However, once I did, I think the break did good. I was re-evaluating my methods and goals. I think it's good idea to experiment and adjust your routine.

I also believe that giving meditation a try without weed might be useful, even if you decide to go back for it.

I was wondering what your opinion would be on this

It's good to hear of your success in restructuring your meditations. Makes me a little less annoyed by the potential implications of my own situation because I'm stubborn :twisted:

And to clarify, since I said regularly with regard to frequency of cannabis use in these spaces, that the rue is used more often than the cannabis. Not drastically so, but noticeably so.

Thank you for your insight brother.

One love

 

[Icyseeker]

Experiencing this exact same thing Void. For a few years I was doing 3 hours plus a night in silent meditation. I began to gradually reduce that time to meditation whenever it feels right. Whats weird is that I can't really describe when I feel that it is a "right" time I just feel its pull. Similar to psychedelics.

At least in Buddhism (but also in a few other spiritual traditions) part of the path was to develop a meditative mind or calmed mind through meditation and then discard the practices used to to achieve it. In this way you are discarding the clinging of practice and ritual.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Experiencing this exact same thing Void. For a few years I was doing 3 hours plus a night in silent meditation. I began to gradually reduce that time to meditation whenever it feels right. Whats weird is that I can't really describe when I feel that it is a "right" time I just feel its pull. Similar to psychedelics.

At least in Buddhism (but also in a few other spiritual traditions) part of the path was to develop a meditative mind or calmed mind through meditation and then discard the practices used to to achieve it. In this way you are discarding the clinging of practice and ritual.

I know that feeling. I think I'll be leaning towards a hybrid where there's a time goal, but it'll always be acceptable to close when process feels complete.

And here we see more of the essence of the idea of nonattachment (not to be conflated with detachment)

One love

 

[PanaeolusSequence]

During my intensive meditation retreats and daily practice; Meditating up to 6-8 hours a day living as an anagarika, I saw great result and benefit. There are monks that meditate all day for months. Believe me.

But life is about balance. This is why even at monasteries they will have temporary intensive seshins(sessions) and then balance out with implementing that mentality in everday life.

Another thing to understand is that meditation doesnt have to be limited to the mat. One can enter or maintain meditative states during everyday life. This is also why there will be a different 'perscription' for meditation amounts if youre a lay person or a fulltime practioner. Lay people meditating 1 hour a day is quite a lot for a householder with a job. But this is a very small amount for a monk to be meditating. Usuaully they are meditating 3-6 hours a day atleast.

Sometimes other practices in balance can bring greater result than one solely taking up all your time. Life is about balance and so is meditation.

I like to make sure that when I do sit for meditation that I allow it to be as high quality session as possible. After all, one can sit all day and get nothing done. In that case mental acuity can be cultivated constantly, on or off the mat.


Blessings

 

[Voidmatrix]

During my intensive meditation retreats and daily practice; Meditating up to 6-8 hours a day living as an anagarika, I saw great result and benefit. There are monks that meditate all day for months. Believe me.

But life is about balance. This is why even at monasteries they will have temporary intensive seshins(sessions) and then balance out with implementing that mentality in everday life.

Another thing to understand is that meditation doesnt have to be limited to the mat. One can enter or maintain meditative states during everyday life. This is also why there will be a different 'perscription' for meditation amounts if youre a lay person or a fulltime practioner. Lay people meditating 1 hour a day is quite a lot for a householder with a job. But this is a very small amount for a monk to be meditating. Usuaully they are meditating 3-6 hours a day atleast.

Sometimes other practices in balance can bring greater result than one solely taking up all your time. Life is about balance and so is meditation.

I like to make sure that when I do sit for meditation that I allow it to be as high quality session as possible. After all, one can sit all day and get nothing done. In that case mental acuity can be cultivated constantly, on or off the mat.


Blessings

Thank you for this. And I generally agree; trying to find my balance with this situation.

It's been mentioned how certain kinds of meditative states can be achieved during pragmatic activities, which I agree with. It's something I'm able to summon often at work due to the nature of the work (growing cannabis), BUT IT'S NOT THE SAME WAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!

For a long time there have been traits that I've admired from say perspectives coming from monkhood and shamanism and such, and so try to adopt and assimilate some of those traits. But, it's about balance.

One love

 

[332211]

Meditation might make you present enough to realize the cognitive decline in the first place.

Check out "The Mind Illuminated" by John Yates. You'll find some answers there (Stage 4) and you might see meditation in a completely different light after reading.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Meditation might make you present enough to realize the cognitive decline in the first place.

Check out "The Mind Illuminated" by John Yates. You'll find some answers there (Stage 4) and you might see meditation in a completely different light after reading.

Thank you for the recommendation.

I've noticed this for a time, inside and outside of meditation, but seems to have worsened in the time my meditation time increased.

One love

 

[dragonrider]

There are many ways to meditate, but they all have in common that they change brainwave patterns. What is very typical, is that some meditation techniques tend to activate both lower and higher frequency brainwaves.

So some techniques seem to widen the spectrum.

However, the meditation techniques that i think most people are using, like focussing on the breathing or repeating a mantra, do this by "calming the mind", wich is something that initially causes the brain to produce more lower frequencies.

I don't know exactly how this works, because it seems paradoxical, but by producing more of these lower frequencies, these higher frequencies seem to spontaneously occur.

These higher, gamma frequencies, are typically more synchronised than beta frequencies.
So my hypothesis is that, by decreasing beta frequencies, the brainwaves become more synchronised, allowing more gamma frequencies to occur, but i don't think there is a scientific explanation yet for this phenomenon, so this is just speculation on my behalf.

But anyway, i think that by meditating very long, it is possible that at some point the focus shifts towards producing more lower frequencies. The effect of this is that instead of more awake, you would start to become a little sleepy instead.

I have noticed this myself as well. If i meditate when i am tired, i sometimes fall asleep. This doesn't happen to me when i'm not a bit sleepy already, so i don't meditate anymore when i'm sleepy because the chances are like 90% that i would just doze off.

This could explain what you're experiencing. Especially if you don't sleep very well. I have struggled with depressions as well, and sleep or rather a lack of it, was definately a big issue for me then.

Practicing mindfullness, often doesn't go as deep as meditation, but it has very simmilar effects on the brain. In fact, you could say that it is just another meditation technique.
But the benefits over conventional meditation techniques are that the chance of dozing off or getting a bit sleepy, is lower. You can practice it when walking, eating, listening to music, or any other activity that doesn't require active thinking or high alertness.

Maybe you will get better results with practicing mindfullness, or by including it in your current meditation practice.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Thank you brother for your insight.

I had been wondering if my meditations were too free form. I typically surrender to the space and go with whatever flow strikes me. This means that it'll sometimes be focused on breath in various ways, a mantra, contemplation, mindfulness, focused focusing, observation, just being, sometimes just being in the space, traversing my mind (which can be somewhat psychedelic), etc, and often a combination of these in one session. I don't force anything. However, after what you've shared regarding brain waves I'm wondering if this free flow approach is generating too many disparate wave states.

And this issue is likely a result of multiple things aside from my frequent hour long meditations, including past diphenhydramine use and my depression. And speaking of depression, which tends to insight neuroses about random things, I'm carefully considering how much it could be tricking me. Or even worse, tricking me in a manner that makes these concerns occur.

I'm working on better cognitive habits, revisiting certain things that I'd regularly interact with to stay sharp including delving back into in depth study of logic, math, philosophy in general, logic and memory exercises and games, etc.

One love

 

[dragonrider]

I think it is also important not to overstretch yourself. If you're coming from a period of relatively little mental activity or little mental challenges, it will take some time to get your brain back in shape.

And getting enough rest is very important. Putting too much stress on the brain is counterproductive. It only depletes your mental energy resources.
You have to gradually work your way up to a more and more challenging daily routine.

I've been in such a situation myself, and what i've learned is that the best way to rebuild yourself after a depression or a breakdown, is to find joy in the things that you want to do. The moment your life starts to feel like a non-stop hurdle race, there is the risk you are starting to wear yourself out.

After my depression i desperately wanted to make up for the time i wasted, and it just didn't work. I've quickly learned that i couldn't cramp more than 24 hours in a day.

That kind of sucks, but for any journey staying on track is of infinately greater importance than speed.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I think it is also important not to overstretch yourself. If you're coming from a period of relatively little mental activity or little mental challenges, it will take some time to get your brain back in shape.

And getting enough rest is very important. Putting too much stress on the brain is counterproductive. It only depletes your mental energy resources.
You have to gradually work your way up to a more and more challenging daily routine.

I've been in such a situation myself, and what i've learned is that the best way to rebuild yourself after a depression or a breakdown, is to find joy in the things that you want to do. The moment your life starts to feel like a non-stop hurdle race, there is the risk you are starting to wear yourself out.

After my depression i desperately wanted to make up for the time i wasted, and it just didn't work. I've quickly learned that i couldn't cramp more than 24 hours in a day.

That kind of sucks, but for any journey staying on track is of infinately greater importance than speed.

Hahaha, boy are we coming up on a variety of struggles for me. I'm trying to be more gradual, but my mind is always on fire. Hence why this cognitive nonsense perturbs me. Aiming for more patience and grace with myself.

Sound sleep has been elusive for me since childhood. Hence why I was taking diphenhydramine for years before bed. I'm off it now and seem pretty functional with around 6 hours of sleep. It's hard to get any more than that. Still trying different combinations of remedies for this. But the sleep factor extends to everything else.

What sucks is with double depression, I mainly have the best opportunity to rebuild after a major episode, but my persistent depression is still there and makes that work more difficult. You've probably experienced the lessening of interest in things you love as a result of depression, so sometimes I have no idea what will bring me joy in a given moment. And I have a lot of stress right now and the hurdle race feeling is ever prevalent. I'm trying yo just be with it and not let it rule nor paralyze me.

And yep, I always struggle with "making up for lost time," trying so hard to just let go, only to have my depression implant the ideal back in my mind at a later time. The deep sense of inferiority it supplies (and has for a very long time) doesn't help.

Thank you dragonrider, I really appreciate. It's that magical time of year where things get a bit rougher for me... should probably SMOALK MOAR

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

Hey all, wanted to take a moment to check in about this.

This is a shining example of neuroticism and depressive inner manipulation, as well as having misunderstood perspectives on a variety of things.


First, there has been some inferiority complex uncovered here since some of the though of such a decline comes from the assumptions about what and how others remember. Most people don't retain as much information as I think they do and for the appearance that they do just means that certain information they revisit in some manner.

Around the time of the pandemic's beginning I started experiencing a state of being withdrawn, and coupled with not working with my best friend anymore (of whom I'd have many deep and incisive interactions with), left me with less cognitive stimulation and in turn leading to the effects that have been discussed above. I started reading less, gaming less, "studying" less, etc. So this is an issue of habituation and depressive perspectives.

There's also an underlying confidence issue as well where there is an unconscious implicit assumption that I won't or can't recall something which becomes as self fulfilling prophecy.

There's also a weird expectation here to address. I mean, I don't know how to study (and am the first generation in my family to graduate college), so why should I expect my retention and recall to be better when I don't know how to study and have dropped the ball on habits that kept me sharp? It's unreasonable.

This is obviously simplified from what I've noticed and learned, but wanted to share and thank everyone again for being so supportive and helpful.

One love