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Research Miprocin and Metocin in PG solubility, stability and vaping observations

Research done by (or for) the DMT-Nexus community
Varallo

Varallo

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Warning
This report is for informational purposes only. Both 4-ho-mipt (miprocin) and 4-ho-met (metocin) are relatively unknown psychedelic tryptamines. Vaping is an untested and potentially unsafe route of administration. There is no toxicological data on pyrolysis products, long term health effects, or safe thresholds for vaporized 4-ho compounds. Proceed only if you are fully aware of the risks.


1. Background

A few months ago I was wondering whether miprocin and metocin could be dissolved in propylene glycol for use in a vape. 4-AcO-DMT/4-HO-MET Fumarate water solubility I had been thinking about it but hadn’t seen any real data, so I decided to test it myself. Over the past few months I’ve been experimenting with solubility, visual stability, and subjective effects using small stick-style vape device.

2. Materials
  • Compounds:
    • miprocin (4-ho-mipt), fumarate salt
    • metocin (4-ho-met), fumarate salt
  • Solvent: standard propylene glycol for vaping
  • Concentrations tested: 75 mg per mL, though based on subjective intensity I would now recommend increasing to 120–150 mg per mL for practical dosing, note: 100 mg was easily dissolved in one ml of pg.
  • Vape device: small portable vape (non-sub-ohm)
  • Storage: glass bottles, room temperature, dark place
  • Test duration: approximately 2 months

3. Observations

Solubility and appearance
Both compounds dissolved easily in propylene glycol with a little heat. The solutions stayed clear and stable at room temperature pH is neutral is slight acidic.
  • Miprocin: minimal color change over 2 to 3 months, slower than degradation seen with dmt citrate in pg slight tan hue.
  • Metocin: slight yellowing, possibly faster than miprocin, but no clouding or rapid degradation like in water.

Vape effects

Both where tested in a small vape with new coil, in low doses.
  • Miprocin: very smooth to inhale, no throat irritation. Comes on rapidly, first effects noticeable within 30 seconds. Warm, soft body feel, calm introspective onset. Takes several pulls to build up. Did not yet go higher in dosage yet, hopefully in the near future.
  • Metocin: lighter and brighter. Effects are more pronounced visual sharpening and a slightly euphoric tone. Also fast in onset. Metocin is nice but is lacking in some areas for me so it was more tested to check if it would work.

4. Dosage advice

At 75mg per mL, multiple pulls were needed to reach a threshold effects. For more practical use, especially in small travel-sized vapes, I would recommend going up to 130 or even 150 mg per mL. Of course, start low and work up slowly, effects tend to build a bit slower as compared to DMT, plus vaporized dosing is much harder to dose accurately than oral.

5. Final thoughts

This method works. Both compounds are active and seem relatively stable in pg. The onset is rapid and the effects are very noticeable. If you are going to explore this, be careful, be conservative, and don’t treat the lack of negative reports as proof of safety. This is still very much experimental territory. For now I’m going to finish my experimental vapejuice and maybe try an higher dose when the time is there. One datapoint that is missing is the duration, sorry, I got enthusiastic after vaping and after some time continued vaping DMT ontop, so when effects where gone and out of my system is still unknown.

Note: I also successfully dissolved both in VG, and in an 50/50 mix, though they where not vaporized.

Update: Research - Miprocin and Metocin in PG solubility, stability and vaping observations
 
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I wanted to try this myself for a while, but was thinking about freebasing 4-HO-MET fumarate beforehand. Did the fumarate salt have a weird taste when vaped? Have you considered the formation of maleic anhydride when vaping fumarate salts? I'm thinking it would only be a very small amount, but vaping maleic anhydride still doesn't sound good.
 
Pendraker11 said:
I wanted to try this myself for a while, but was thinking about freebasing 4-HO-MET fumarate beforehand. Did the fumarate salt have a weird taste when vaped? Have you considered the formation of maleic anhydride when vaping fumarate salts? I'm thinking it would only be a very small amount, but vaping maleic anhydride still doesn't sound good.
Click to expand...
I don't know if anyone is 100% certain, but the going theory is that the operational temperature for vape cart devices is below the combustion threshold of fumaric acid. I may be incorrect on the specifics as I'm a dunce in chemistry, but I think that's the gist of it.

Research - DMT salts for e-juice

8/29/2022 Edit: DMT citrate e-juice salt has matured into a TEK. Ideas below are early development using a longer process going through DMT FB. The idea of using DMT salts follows the commercial success of Juul's development of nicotine salts as explained in this thread. Want to report I'm...
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Pendraker11 said:
I wanted to try this myself for a while, but was thinking about freebasing 4-HO-MET fumarate beforehand. Did the fumarate salt have a weird taste when vaped? Have you considered the formation of maleic anhydride when vaping fumarate salts? I'm thinking it would only be a very small amount, but vaping maleic anhydride still doesn't sound good.
Click to expand...
I have freebased both, but you end up getting an oily mess that is rather unpleasant to work with. As to malieic anhydride, I feel that this is something that is not going to form when vaping PG at normal temperatures. It’s not like you’re smoking it, the idea of vaping with PG is that you’re creating an fine mist of PG with the active ingredient dissolved into the mist.

As to the taste it has a slight tryptamine taste reminiscent of DMT but much weaker than DMT. Absolutely no discomfort whatsoever was noted during or after the experiments. For reference I can’t smoke an single cigarette without feeling like I need an rescue inhaler to breathe.
 
A little update regarding the behavior of Miprocin in PG. When used in a vaporizer, something appears to react with the liquid. Without any obvious signs during use, the liquid gradually turned into a black tar-like substance over the course of two/3 weeks. It also hardened slightly, indicating some kind of polymerization or similar reaction may be occurring.

Interestingly, the original samples stored in test tubes from the beginning of the experiment remain relatively clear. This suggests that something specific to the vaporizer possibly heat, the coil material, or another component has a significant influence on the degradation or shelf life of the liquid.

Next time I make it I will put it back in the glass container after use, maybe that helps.
 
Varallo said:
A little update regarding the behavior of Miprocin in PG. When used in a vaporizer, something appears to react with the liquid. Without any obvious signs during use, the liquid gradually turned into a black tar-like substance over the course of two/3 weeks. It also hardened slightly, indicating some kind of polymerization or similar reaction may be occurring.

Interestingly, the original samples stored in test tubes from the beginning of the experiment remain relatively clear. This suggests that something specific to the vaporizer possibly heat, the coil material, or another component has a significant influence on the degradation or shelf life of the liquid.

Next time I make it I will put it back in the glass container after use, maybe that helps.
Click to expand...
Super interesting, I wonder what's going on there. Likely due to one of the variables you listed, but who knows? These 4-AcO/HO-* molecules sure are touchy.
 
Does the 4-OH-indole derivative get exposed to more light in the vape tank? And there's definitely more oxygen around in that environment, I'd wager. The tar sounds like a polymerisation product similar to the one already fairly well characterised in the case of psilocin.

We can't exclude catalytic effects from the heating element - iron is already well known for accelerating psilocin decomposition, much as I recall, and hot nickel will merrily pull hydrogen atoms off a wide range of organic materials. Add to this that tar formation might be somewhat autocatalytic… and we haven't even begun to consider the effects of the solvent. For one thing, I can envisage oxygen being fairly soluble in PG. And if even a tiny bit of it dehydrates to propionaldehyde, that's also adding a problemchen.
 
The tank has been standing in a closed cupboard, and I wrapped a piece of aluminum foil around it, so I don’t think light is the factor that caused it. The reason I didn’t notice it earlier is because the aluminum foil was covering it, since the cupboard gets opened occasionally. I strongly believe the cause has something to do with the coil, the metal, the heat, and maybe even oxygen (though I’m not entirely sure).

The other mixes I still have in a test tube are also in PG, and I haven’t done anything different with those. I haven’t excluded oxygen from those tubes, so that’s why I suspect the coil is likely the issue.
 
Hi guys,

Thanks for all of your hard work.

I’m looking to use 4HO in VG into a dropper bottle and dose appropriately.

Do you think the same would apply for this method?

Would it need to be heated for dissolving into VG or could they be added in a more primitive method - simply putting the the desired dose to drop ratio and mixing in the bottle?

Many thanks,

RH
 
Rht said:
Hi guys,

Thanks for all of your hard work.

I’m looking to use 4HO in VG into a dropper bottle and dose appropriately.

Do you think the same would apply for this method?

Would it need to be heated for dissolving into VG or could they be added in a more primitive method - simply putting the the desired dose to drop ratio and mixing in the bottle?

Many thanks,

RH
Click to expand...
Yes, as mentioned both where dissolved in VG, al little heat was used, but I have not vaporized any, however I am pretty confident that this will work without any problem. My advice would be to limit the amount you make to what you are planning to consume in a week or two.

Also please consider reporting back to get some extra datapoints on the topic.
 
Varallo said:
The tank has been standing in a closed cupboard, and I wrapped a piece of aluminum foil around it, so I don’t think light is the factor that caused it. The reason I didn’t notice it earlier is because the aluminum foil was covering it, since the cupboard gets opened occasionally. I strongly believe the cause has something to do with the coil, the metal, the heat, and maybe even oxygen (though I’m not entirely sure).

The other mixes I still have in a test tube are also in PG, and I haven’t done anything different with those. I haven’t excluded oxygen from those tubes, so that’s why I suspect the coil is likely the issue.
Click to expand...
I forgot to add earlier, iron ions are known to accelerate the decomposition of psilocin, so the coil could easily have something to do with it, just as you suspect. Nickel and chromium very likely would have a similar effect to iron.
 
You got balls Varallo, big space balls.

So what were the subjective effects? What is the come on? What is the "there" when you get there? What are you comparing the vape to? Oral?
 
Great questions, I hadn’t really thought about comparing it. Besides vaping, I’ve also snorted and taken both orally. What stood out with vaping was how much slower the onset was compared to DMT. With DMT, the effects hit almost instantly, within seconds of inhaling. In this case, there was a noticeable delay, maybe a minute or two, before the effects peaked.

I noticed something similar with snorting, especially with metocin, which I’ve tried several times. It felt like the drip into my throat triggered the effects significantly.

My impression is that 4-HO-substituted tryptamines generally work best when taken orally. I’ve used both miprocin and metocin that way quite a lot. In comparison, vaping gave me an effect similar to about 10 mg orally. It didn’t lead to anything special and was more a confirmation that it worked.

The visuals included color shifts and closed-eye patterns reminiscent of DMT. There was little internal dialogue, especially with metocin, which is typical for me. Miprocin, on the other hand, often brings more mental content and is one of my favorite psychedelics. I use it regularly in varying doses.

Interestingly, since trying it via vaporization, I’ve used miprocine orally again, but haven’t felt the need to vape it. That might say something. Still, I think there’s more to explore, especially with a stronger inhaled dose. I plan to try the freebase in a proper vaporizer to see if that reduces the delay and allows for a deeper experience.

If I do, I will report back here.
 
Speaking of alternative ROAs, subcutaneous injection works for both as well, but the water in the vial turns black within a week or so, as one would expect. What's interesting is that the trip takes ~20-30 minutes to begin after injection. I was reminded of this strange quirk when @Varallo mentioned the noticeable delay when vaping.
 
Transform said:
What about sublingual? The post-nasal drip observation suggests to me that this might be another promising ROA.
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I haven’t tried that yet, but next time I’ll go I will put the dose under my tongue to see if it’s working.
Here&Now said:
Speaking of alternative ROAs, subcutaneous injection works for both as well, but the water in the vial turns black within a week or so, as one would expect. What's interesting is that the trip takes ~20-30 minutes to begin after injection. I was reminded of this strange quirk when @Varallo mentioned the noticeable delay when vaping.
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Hmm interesting, maybe this suggest something, like that there’s something happening before it gets active, if I finish my small batch I use for dosing I will have my new batch, that is still in a vial of argon tested by kykeon, and when clean enough I will try it intravenous to see what that does.
 
Varallo said:
Hmm interesting, maybe this suggest something, like that there’s something happening before it gets active, if I finish my small batch I use for dosing I will have my new batch, that is still in a vial of argon tested by kykeon, and when clean enough I will try it intravenous to see what that does.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't be surprised to hear that IV takes multiple minutes like vaping. I've SC injected base tryptamines, 5-MeO's, and a few other substances, and there's always a ~5 minute onset, so I think there really is something unusual about these 4-HO's that adds to the delay. Probably some kind of processing the body needs to perform.
 
Ruffles said:
Or availability to central nervous system. Unrelated tissues might grab and hold it. So the body volume needs to be taken into account.
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My 200 pounds is the reason 😂. That’s an option but when I take miprocin first thing in the morning and take a small bite of something after I get effects in 10 minutes and the come up is really fast.
 
Recently, I experimented with freebasing Metocin. I dissolved it in a tiny drop of water, added a tiny drop of ammonia, waited for the mixture to evaporate completely, and then used a couple of drops of acetone to pick up the freebase. I delivered this acetone solution directly onto an eMesh setup. After the acetone had evaporated, I vaporized it at around a 200 °C setting.

Interestingly, this method produced instant effects, the delay I had observed when using a vape was completely gone. It was just as fast as DMT, and not as harsh, though that might have been due to a low dosage. I started with 25 mg, but I’m very sure not all of it was picked up by the acetone, plus I played around with the settings to observe how it was vaporizing.

In a second test, I tried putting the fumarate salt directly on an eMesh. This also worked: it started vaporizing readily at about the 190 °C setting. However, the vapor wasn’t very pleasant, it felt like my throat was tightening when inhaling. Still, what’s interesting is that this approach also produced effects that built up very, quickly.

So, two more data points to add to the list. I think I’ve explored this method of vaporization for both Metocin and Miprocin enough for now. Although I felt compelled to run these experiments, I think that for me personally, these two chemicals shine more when taken orally. I haven’t tried sublingual yet, but I’ll add to this thread if I do. For now, I’m going to leave vaporization behind because it doesn’t seem to add much to the experience itself. You can just take more Metocin or Miprocin to go higher, and both are fairly forgiving in nature, so it’s not too difficult to dose high while still maintaining some control over the trip. Anyway, that’s it for now.
 
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