My concerns regarding entheogens, especially DMT

[Sabnock1990]

Also it's worth noting that instead of trying to figure things out, people's fear can sometimes make them think the worst. I've noticed it's quite easy to think something negative is around when feeling DMT's Adrenaline release, really puts the fear/terror in ya lol. And as i said earlier, people aren't really all that investigative, or skeptical, or scientific minded. They have some bad experiences and interpret it in some way without actually investigating further and seeing if it's just the fear talking or if there's a legitimate threat. DMT's Adrenaline release can cause anxiety, panic, terror, fear, feelings of impending doom, and can take you to some pretty weird headspaces ime, but at the end of the day, all i've noticed is fear, no demons and no spiritual assaults/drive by's.

Also people put too much faith in the visions, i myself have only ever gotten one vision from Aya/Pharma, and it was a precognitive vision about my dads death which came true a couple weeks later, but i hardly get any closed eyed visuals from Aya/Pharma for some odd reason so visuals/visions aren't important to me. I focus more on the physical, mental and spiritual stuff rather than the visual. But people need to stop putting so much faith in entities they may encounter in visions/visuals, if you get a precognitive vision, that's one thing, but seeing some demonic-like creatures and blindly believing they're real imo is a bit of a stretch and should be more investigated rather than allowing them to have power over you. Don't feed the fear or the fear will feed you.

 

[tseuq]

Ugarit, i think you're overexaggerating a tad. I think it's quite ridiculous to think/say that entities you're exposed to in the DMT-realm could harm you or "mutilate" your soul lol. If having some spiritual protection makes you feel safer, by all means, have at it, but i highly highly doubt DMT can open up a gateway to some dark demonic realm and allow demons to latch on to you and destroy your life, like demons are just waiting for naive poor souls to attack.

On a meta level, this vision/projection could be interpreted as "encoutering my own demons (f.e. fears / neglected and avoided experiences) with which I have no adaptive strategies to cope with, what can lead to anxiety and ultimately self-damaging behaviour".

Just yesterday, a friend told me of a friend of her who smoalked DMT and has now the idea and need to burn himself. Apparently, he doesn't explain why, because no one would understand him anyway. This can be seen as a holy ritual which he is performing and it can be seen as an expression of an active delusion.

The guy doesn't seem to chose to perform this ritual voluntarily, what makes me think of the latter.

Believes are just so powerful...

... and if I chose anything to believe, then that everything is holy/god/love/consciousness/ what so ever and forever, what disolves the concept of duality (from which ideas of: "I have to do XY to be right/good/enlighted/blaa" arise) and its consequental behaviour, which I only perform to achieve/become/..., and ultimately enables freedom in the now, by letting go of all this I-related-mind-thingy-things which all seem sooooo important.

Love trancends.

tseuq

edit: Coming back to this topic: It is all possible/potential and the only way to find out is to go back and show those demons our meanest grin.

 

[Ugarit]

i think it's quite ridiculous to think/say that entities you're exposed to in the DMT-realm could harm you or "mutilate" your soul lol.

No offense. But IMHO this statement is ridiculous. As I said in the beginning: Noone knows. Here you are just projecting your truth (worldview) onto others and IMHO with quite an arrogant touch by mocking others viewpoints. (sorry for being harsh, and nothing personal, I really like you, but I just had the feeling to have to put this straight)

It's kinda like going to shaman, and laughing straight in his face about all he believes in...just because this isn't compatible with your truth.

Fact is: His standpoint can be as true or false as yours.

The minute i experience/witness something like this, then i'll believe. But until i'm given even a shred of personal evidence, then i'm sorry i just don't understand why someone would be scared of the thought of some stupid demons or interdimensional beings. I'm of a more scientific mindset, and i don't scare too easily, i like to use some skepticism and try to figure things out, and i've taken Aya/Pharma way too many times to count and have never not once encountered any negative being/entity or demon.

I'm not wanting to draw conclusions too early (especially without personally experiencing/witnessing a demon/entity), but i highly doubt such a thing actually exists and i think people are wussies for being afraid of demons lol. Which btw fear is the main thing demons are supposed to feed on, so the more you fear the possibility of them, the more power/control they have over you. I say just do your thing and if you feel like you need some spiritual protection then have at it.

But i've seen too many ridiculous and stupid posts, especially in youtube videos, especially from naive and brainwashed Christians who are convinced Ayahuasca is evil/demonic and nothing good can come out of it and that Jesus is the only way. It pisses me off and annoys me to no end. People need to start being more scientific and actually investigating things and trying to figure things out, not blindly believing in the possibility of demons. And so what if demons exist? Just handle them and move on, go all Constantine on their ass, it's what i'd do. I ain't afraid of no ghost, haha.

And btw i wasn't mocking, i'm just annoyed at people's stupidity and gullibility. The minute someone starts getting attacked/harmed by a demon, record it and send me some videos, or let me come on by to investigate. But until i personally see/witness it, i'm not gonna put much thought into it.

Besides, DMT isn't all that different, effects/mechanics-wise from other Psychedelics, and i also don't hear many people who take other Psychedelics talking about demons attacking people and such. I think it's really ridiculous to think DMT is somehow special and different from the rest and will open you up to spiritual attacks/harm. If it did, i probably would've noticed by now after having taken it orally so many times.

I understand your point of view, and I thank you for weighing in honestly. The replies are condescending, though. You wrote "And btw i wasn't mocking...", then later, in the same sentence wrote "people's stupidity and gullibility". Whatever, though. I don't take this personally, and don't feel that you have any ill intent.

This is a topic that can go on forever. Very briefly, a scientific understanding requires that we start with no assumptions regarding the observed subject(s). Only when evidence points to one conclusion over another do we make up our minds. Even then, if we are true to science, we don't state conclusions with certainty. We only accept certain conditions/phenomena as "true" in a working, practical sense until proven otherwise.

Look at the origins of science. It is a type of philosophy. The American PhD degree even stands for "Philosophiae Doctor", which is Latin for "Doctor of Philosophy". I only mention this because I've heard many "scientifically oriented" people scoff at philosophy, not realizing that to interpret the world based upon what is seen, experienced, measured, and tested presupposes that certain truths are in place, allowing "science" to be considered a valid tool of inquiry.

Furthermore, as others have mentioned, the nature of the DMT experience is such that scientific methods are of limited use. The user of DMT is both the experimental subject and the observer. In accordance with Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, this dynamic would produce different results than if the subject and observer were different. This is shown in the multiplicity of interpretations of the DMT eperience that are reported.

There are then issues of how consciousness is produced in a world of matter and energy. Check out the concept of "Emergence".

To wrap this up, I'm not making any claims. If I knew that entities/demons/etc. were attacking people on a regular basis in hyperspace, I'd have my mind made up. This isn't the case. I'm simply looking for the perspectives of others. That you have not had such experiences suggests the power of set and setting, at least in part, in determining these things.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Naw, wasn't mocking, was just saying, a lot of people seem gullible/stupid when it comes to DMT and talk of demons (mainly referring to those with a Christian predisposition). No ill intent at all though

"Very briefly, a scientific understanding requires that we start with no assumptions regarding the observed subject(s). Only when evidence points to one conclusion over another do we make up our minds. Even then, if we are true to science, we don't state conclusions with certainty. We only accept certain conditions/phenomena as "true" in a working, practical sense until proven otherwise." Exactly. Dig in deep, see what is possible, draw conclusions, but be open to shifts in conclusions due to new information, research, or experience.

"Furthermore, as others have mentioned, the nature of the DMT experience is such that scientific methods are of limited use. The user of DMT is both the experimental subject and the observer." Idk about that, maybe with vaped DMT but oral DMT with Harmalas is pretty consistent/reliable and can be put up to some scientific standards ime, it's really not as random or inconsistent as some may think, especially if you separate the two plants and take the DMT-containing plant when gut MAO-A is fully inhibited by the Harmalas. But it is true though that we are both the experimental subject, as well as the observer, which is why it's good to have a more scientific mindset and do some rigorous, deep, and regular experimentation to see what really may be going on before drawing conclusions.

"That you have not had such experiences suggests the power of set and setting, at least in part, in determining these things." Also don't forget the power of fear/terror in tricking people. Also i think people put too much thought into the visions they may get. The precognitive vision i had about my dad on Pharmahuasca was as clear as day and very understandable, told/showed me exactly what i needed to know, so i didn't have to think about what it meant. So imo, if someone were to have a legit vision of something, i would think the meaning would be quite clear, however if the vision isn't clear and understandable, i personally wouldn't put much thought into it and would just brush it off as some random imagery. As for visions of entities, i wouldn't pay it any mind unless i also felt/sensed/understood that there was some external entity around, but if all it is, is just a closed eyed visual/vision, ehhh, doesn't really concern me personally.

 

[Ugarit]

thanks, this helps my understanding.

 

[○]

i think it's quite ridiculous to think/say that entities you're exposed to in the DMT-realm could harm you or "mutilate" your soul lol.

No offense. But IMHO this statement is ridiculous. As I said in the beginning: Noone knows. Here you are just projecting your truth (worldview) onto others and IMHO with quite an arrogant touch by mocking others viewpoints. (sorry for being harsh, and nothing personal, I really like you, but I just had the feeling to have to put this straight)

It's kinda like going to shaman, and laughing straight in his face about all he believes in...just because this isn't compatible with your truth.

Fact is: His standpoint can be as true or false as yours.

Aum Shanti makes some good points also, and the highlighted one stood out to me - definitely agree there. I mean....we don't have one clue as to what this experience is. For me it's beyond language and any sort of 'one size fits all polarity' - whether that be demonic soul raping entities, virtuous love infused beings, or whichever label you want to give these things. This goes for any other part of the experience.

To categorize any section of this experience and to ascribe some watered down polarized label - for me personally it just doesn't fit whatsoever, not in the slightest. The place I go on dmt is very well outside of all these labels, it's inhabitants, all of it [the experience as a whole] - it has exceeded, stomped on, and laughed endlessly at all my attempts to categorize it or apply some sort of pre-conceived ideals that I had generated [and these ideals can certainly be shaped by an endless array of factors that have came throughout my life].

Every time I smoke and am propelled into that realm, I always [for a split second] think back to times like this - all this labeling, it's laughable, it really is. Not laughable in a bad way or anything, laughable as in how weak our attempts are to grasp any sliver of solidarity as to 'it is this, it is that' :lol:

To the OP, I'd strongly suggest you have some first hand experience for a reasonable period of time before making any firm labeling. It's not so simple..

 

[Sabnock1990]

Well tatt, you have to consider that vaped pure DMT is a different beast than Aya/Pharma. I use Aya/Pharma, i haven't ventured into vaped DMT yet, but i have smoked Harmala-heavy Changa quite a bit, but i prefer oral DMT with Harmalas, and have also used Moclobemide instead of Harmalas but i prefer the Harmalas. Vaped DMT may be elusive and hard to figure out/describe, but Aya/Pharma is way more stable/consistent/manageable and you just learn so much more from it. The vaped DMT experience from my understanding doesn't really give you much to grasp, apparently, unlike oral DMT which unfolds more slowly and allows you to actually grasp/understand a lot of things.

I agree though, words usually just can not describe this stuff that well, you really just have to experience it first hand.

 

[Sakkadelic]

if bad entities are going to attack innocent people and ruin their lives then this whole existence is chaotic and nothing matters at all... if you feel good about yourself and about the things you do in life then you have nothing to fear, no one can harm you...
for me entities especially bad ones are a psychic embodiment of the bad things inside us
why they come? bcz sometimes we cannot see the bad parts in us, so they come as separate things giving us a chance to see an fix ourselves...

 

[Espurrr]

think of it like a game...
you die... you spawn back up...
it doesn't matter what happens to you, as long as you let it go
you never see anyone playing a game and clinging to what happened before this save, in that or this level or w/e
life is like that, you learn and pass the level, you may enjoy the level or despise it, that is your choice
it is wisdom when one takes joy in learning from hardship
it is further wisdom when one is needless of joy
and it is pure wisdom when one is needless of happiness
BUT IT SURE IS WISDOM, when one is needles of worry

 

[○]

Well tatt, you have to consider that vaped pure DMT is a different beast than Aya/Pharma. I use Aya/Pharma, i haven't ventured into vaped DMT yet, but i have smoked Harmala-heavy Changa quite a bit, but i prefer oral DMT with Harmalas, and have also used Moclobemide instead of Harmalas but i prefer the Harmalas. Vaped DMT may be elusive and hard to figure out/describe, but Aya/Pharma is way more stable/consistent/manageable and you just learn so much more from it. The vaped DMT experience from my understanding doesn't really give you much to grasp, apparently, unlike oral DMT which unfolds more slowly and allows you to actually grasp/understand a lot of things.

I agree though, words usually just can not describe this stuff that well, you really just have to experience it first hand.

Very true, vaped DMT is definitely different from oral, even changa, though I'm not too experienced with harmala heavy blends [only ever went light on the harmalas, so I'll have to experiment with the heavier harmala combos one day].

Yeah oral preps allow me to carefully wade through, slower onset/build up [and just altogether different in many ways] and alot of the time offer incredibly deep and intense analysis. Though there's been times where I got smacked around pretty good [and the onset/comeup was brutally fast and transitionless] with oral and was in such a ineffable realm [inside/outside gone, no me, time gone, boundaries gone, becoming hyperspace]. It wasn't common for me, but there has been those times where I took very little from those experiences, aside from a classical 'WTF'. :d

But really for me - changa, ayahuasca preps, dmt freebase, mushrooms, pharma they're all unique vantage points/facets of this one ineffable something, the thing we put ourselves directly in contact with. I've gained little bits from all them tbh.

My strongest [and highest take home] experience was some years back, and that has superceded everything else I've experienced up until this point [it was changa]

Different strokes though , we're all wired differently in how we respond and take in these experiences and what we individually deem as 'got the most from this and not this, etc'.


**Great posts Sakkadelic and Espurrr :thumb_up:

 

[Psilociraptor]

"
I'm not wanting to draw conclusions too early (especially without personally experiencing/witnessing a demon/entity), but i highly doubt such a thing actually exists and i think people are wussies for being afraid of demons lol. "

I would actually say vaped DMT is about as consistent if not more so than Aya in my experience. It's DeJavu every time. Anyways, on the topic of demons, i feel there is some middle ground here. I too come from a scientific background and my first Ayahuasca ceremony was met with all kinds of friction from the people around me. I thought I had stepped into a looney bin and wanted no part of that. But that stuff transformed me. Especially in that context. It became easier to see how in touch with reality those folk really were and how easily i could connect with their words through my own understanding.

That experience something dark got a hold of me and i freaked out hard. Begged half the room to kill me, was swearing left and right, begging to be taken to the hospital. The guide said i was facing "demons" and i was just thinking "god you suck, i've poisoned myself. i need medical attention not an exorcism". Well turns out he was right... No, not physical beings from another dimension. The demons were my demons. Parts of myself that i've let parasitize me. Parts of myself i had to acknowledge and slay so that they would never come back. When i encounter "spirits" and "demons" nowadays i encounter them as such. Anthropomorphisms of internal and external physical realities. A sort of mythological medium that makes them easier to connect with. Ever seen the show "Grim"? My wife had a similar experience on Ayahuasca. She saw one of the ceremony mates slip into his wolf-like nature. Now there's no belief that he is indeed some genetic chimera of wolf and man. It's merely symbolism for a real trait that she perceived. The trait connected patterns from other parts of her consciousness and identified similarities between this man and a wolf.

Maybe some people really do believe in entities and beings as external realities as they are perceived. It is conceivable to me that there may be some layers of physical reality that don't interact with our normal perception. But i have no way to verify that or even entertain it as I have not even the slightest means of logically connecting those two worlds.

As for surgery. I've never had that experience ever. The closest i can come to that is a transmittance of information between me and another being. They have certainly put things "deep within me" but in a very non-materialistic sense. And yes this can be concerning sometimes. I've been implanted with negative things before but i've gotten pretty good at letting those things slide and the positive ones stick. If i held on to every negative thing i've acquired from a psychedelic trip i think i'd be missing the point.