The experience doesn't always have to be spiritual, and it isn't always, and I think that's important to note. It is so incredibly multifaceted and can show you many things from the sacred to the mundane, from the euphoric to the painful, from the mathematically-logically ordered to the silly, goofy, humourous, etc...so I think it would be incorrect to call the DMT experience 'spiritual' on the basis that it is only that some of the time just as it's only anything you can say about it some of the time. The English language is binary and makes it seem as if we only have two choices. You want to say that DMT is either one thing or another, but that's IME an unjust and elementary approach to talking about this most-sophisticated phenomenon.
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My theory on DMT
- Thread starter pechenek
- Start date
DreaMTripper
Rising Star
Thanks for your theory OP its started a great discussion I will chuck my penneths worth in once Ive gathered my thoughts as recently I have been thinking about it.
A few thoughts:
Each of us owns a model of how the world works, or more correctly and deeply, a model of the nature of existence. We create this model based on our senses – what we see, feel, hear, etc., based on what we learn and accept from others, and from what we dream and imagine. The model is a personal one – it also defines how we fit into the world and larger existence.
We construct this model, and then measure phenomena against it.
If a phenomenon fits the model we accept it and “believe” it and consider it to be “real”. We then incorporate the phenomenon into our model, and as a result we strengthen the model.
If a phenomenon doesn’t fit and we can’t make it fit, often we won’t believe it and will consider it to be “not real”. We will ignore it or discount it or explain away the phenomenon lest it weaken our model.
People seem naturally resistant to making radical changes to their model. Many people are resistant to even modest changes. We seem to naturally want to strengthen and reinforce our model. Thoughtfully examining ideas that challenge and potentially weaken our model requires deliberate and conscious effort, and it’s something that not many are willing or able to do.
When we debate the reality or unreality of something, we’re not really debating the thing at all. What we’re actually doing is measuring the phenomenon against our model and reporting how well or poorly it fits.
The debates about real vs. unreal, matter vs. consciousness, theism vs. atheism will continue, as will the debate about what DMT actually does to us. Debates aside, I think most will agree that DMT assists or encourages (some might say forces) some pretty radical model revision.
Each of us owns a model of how the world works, or more correctly and deeply, a model of the nature of existence. We create this model based on our senses – what we see, feel, hear, etc., based on what we learn and accept from others, and from what we dream and imagine. The model is a personal one – it also defines how we fit into the world and larger existence.
We construct this model, and then measure phenomena against it.
If a phenomenon fits the model we accept it and “believe” it and consider it to be “real”. We then incorporate the phenomenon into our model, and as a result we strengthen the model.
If a phenomenon doesn’t fit and we can’t make it fit, often we won’t believe it and will consider it to be “not real”. We will ignore it or discount it or explain away the phenomenon lest it weaken our model.
People seem naturally resistant to making radical changes to their model. Many people are resistant to even modest changes. We seem to naturally want to strengthen and reinforce our model. Thoughtfully examining ideas that challenge and potentially weaken our model requires deliberate and conscious effort, and it’s something that not many are willing or able to do.
When we debate the reality or unreality of something, we’re not really debating the thing at all. What we’re actually doing is measuring the phenomenon against our model and reporting how well or poorly it fits.
The debates about real vs. unreal, matter vs. consciousness, theism vs. atheism will continue, as will the debate about what DMT actually does to us. Debates aside, I think most will agree that DMT assists or encourages (some might say forces) some pretty radical model revision.
Ya Gibran well put. In all seriousness it's an interesting idea as to what exactly is happening to you while under the effects of DMT. We've seen how personal it is as it effects each person differently as far as experience goes. Although, what it does for the majority is more important than why. It has touched people, change points of view, accelerated self improvement, given hope to those without, pushed those who seek to learn, and hyper slapped those that need to be put in their place.
If that's not real I don't know what is. Your experiencing it right? If someone doses and doesn't get the same sort of experience that most of us get, well that's your subjective experience. Most of mine have had a very spiritual luster to them. I believe that's what this advanced monkey needed to further expand. I also believe strongly that if your not looking for it DMT doesn't just throw it in your face, at first anyways.
It works through your minds eye, if your not aware of its existence you won't see it. If you don't believe in the first place, your going to come to a different conclusion based on your view point. That's how I've seen it work anyways.
If that's not real I don't know what is. Your experiencing it right? If someone doses and doesn't get the same sort of experience that most of us get, well that's your subjective experience. Most of mine have had a very spiritual luster to them. I believe that's what this advanced monkey needed to further expand. I also believe strongly that if your not looking for it DMT doesn't just throw it in your face, at first anyways.
It works through your minds eye, if your not aware of its existence you won't see it. If you don't believe in the first place, your going to come to a different conclusion based on your view point. That's how I've seen it work anyways.
I agree with the OP, you don't really need to have tried it to come up with this logic, seems pretty self-evident.
JustATourist
Rising Star
You guys should check this out:
A Comprehensive Analysis of Hallucinogen Induced States of Unity and Interconnectedness
All the metaphysical implications of the DMT experience could be an illusion, no matter how realistic, subjectively convincing, ego shattering and metareferential the experience is.
This doesn't lessen the validity of the more pragmatic, practical and valuable "revelations" and benefits on psychedelics in general though.
I'm not saying it is an illusion, I'm just pointing out the simple fact that it might be. A lot of folks here have a hard time to even consider that possibility.
It's a mistery, let's put it that way, shall we?
A Comprehensive Analysis of Hallucinogen Induced States of Unity and Interconnectedness
All the metaphysical implications of the DMT experience could be an illusion, no matter how realistic, subjectively convincing, ego shattering and metareferential the experience is.
This doesn't lessen the validity of the more pragmatic, practical and valuable "revelations" and benefits on psychedelics in general though.
I'm not saying it is an illusion, I'm just pointing out the simple fact that it might be. A lot of folks here have a hard time to even consider that possibility.
It's a mistery, let's put it that way, shall we?
JustATourist said:You guys should check this out:
A Comprehensive Analysis of Hallucinogen Induced States of Unity and Interconnectedness
All the metaphysical implications of the DMT experience could be an illusion, no matter how realistic, subjectively convincing, ego shattering and metareferential the experience is.
This doesn't lessen the validity of the more pragmatic, practical and valuable "revelations" and benefits on psychedelics in general though.
I'm not saying it is an illusion, I'm just pointing out the simple fact that it might be. A lot of folks here have a hard time to even consider that possibility.
It's a mistery, let's put it that way, shall we?
I don't believe you and the author of the article you linked are "on the same page" so to speak. Every time he uses the word "illusion" in that article, he's not referring to DMT's hyperspace. He's referring to the illusory nature of consensual reality. I would go back and re-read.
Also, I can't speak for others, but every experience regardless of drug or no drug is probably comprised of some percentage of illusion. There's most likely always some room for perceptual or analytical error.
The Neural
Rising Star
If you want to know more about the neuroanatomical correlates of out-of-body experiences, this may instigate some interest :
The temporo-parietal junction
Self-report measures as described by participants who had that area "disabled", resemble a lot the "dissociative" states achieved with ketamine or salvinorin A. May have some merit.
The temporo-parietal junction
Self-report measures as described by participants who had that area "disabled", resemble a lot the "dissociative" states achieved with ketamine or salvinorin A. May have some merit.
JustATourist said:It's a mistery, let's put it that way, shall we?
Yep.. considering it just a illusion, makes it no less of a mystery. Just like it would be considering it of being a real thing.
The dmt experience, being it real or not real, it's just wonderful and fascinating, how such a thing is possible.
JustATourist
Rising Star
Oops I posted another article of the same guy. I had not read that lol.Global said:JustATourist said:You guys should check this out:
A Comprehensive Analysis of Hallucinogen Induced States of Unity and Interconnectedness
All the metaphysical implications of the DMT experience could be an illusion, no matter how realistic, subjectively convincing, ego shattering and metareferential the experience is.
This doesn't lessen the validity of the more pragmatic, practical and valuable "revelations" and benefits on psychedelics in general though.
I'm not saying it is an illusion, I'm just pointing out the simple fact that it might be. A lot of folks here have a hard time to even consider that possibility.
It's a mistery, let's put it that way, shall we?
I don't believe you and the author of the article you linked are "on the same page" so to speak. Every time he uses the word "illusion" in that article, he's not referring to DMT's hyperspace. He's referring to the illusory nature of consensual reality. I would go back and re-read.
Also, I can't speak for others, but every experience regardless of drug or no drug is probably comprised of some percentage of illusion. There's most likely always some room for perceptual or analytical error.
He doesn't actually make firm claims about consensus reality either though, he is not talking about the "we are one" ordeal anyway.
here's the article:
http://www.disregardeverythingisay....fic-explanation-of-the-psychedelic-experience
I didn't say that I agree wth him by the way.
JustATourist
Rising Star
interestingly, electrical stimulation at the tempo-parietal junction also systematically induced the "Feeling of a Presence" in an epileptic patient ("induction of an illusory shadow person").The Neural said:
Anyway, the neuroscientific theory about the classic out-of-body experience (leaving the body and looking back at oneself) by O. Blanke based on the temporo-parietal junction actually EXPLAINS OBEs rather than only correlating neural substrates with subjective experience. The multisensory disintegration at the temporo-parietal junction truly demystifies the OBE and sheds light into its illusory nature, if the theory is correct.
This makes me wonder, because Near-Death Experiences almost always involve an OBE, with the dying subject looking back at his physical body. How can an NDEs not be just an hallucination if the OBE component of the NDE is illusory??
Are the OBE during an NDE different from the OBE experienced by neurological and healthy subjects (during Sleep Paralysis for example)?
The Neural
Rising Star
my personal take is that they are not different. Multisensory disintegration makes sense, but it should be taken with a pinch of salt regarding its explanatory power, because there are more multisensory "hubs" in the temporal and parietal lobes, that could easily negate confident statements on the TPJ's primary functions. Generally, an interruption of sensory signals can be regarded as the main cause for OBEs, NDEs, and other similar phenomena, regardless of the nature of interruption (external/internal stimuli, fight or flight, neurological damage, stress, substance activity etc).
of course, the quality has to be different, since there are other factors involved that have not been researched (definitely a different OBE experience during sleep paralysis than e.g a traumatic event).
of course, the quality has to be different, since there are other factors involved that have not been researched (definitely a different OBE experience during sleep paralysis than e.g a traumatic event).
anrchy said:
Well, I would assume taking DMT in your normal awake state would produce a different experience from when you excrete it in sleep, also the doses would be different. But of course the DMT = responsible for dreams is only a theory.... I think by Rick Strassman. But there is some obvious correlation, like after people smoked DMT many report more vivid dreams. That leads to another question, what are dreams? I believe them to be reflections of the higher consciousness.. Two days ago for example I was dreaming and when the dream reached its climax it woke me up, immediately three seconds later the UPS guy rings my doorbell. Small stuff like that seems to happen quite often, more than what could be coincidence.. By the way off-topic, sorry.
fMRI studies done with dreaming and then a successive study by the same researchers with ayahuasca seem to indicate that they might not be so related. When the ayahuasca participants were blindfolded so as not to have any external visual data coming in, their brains were reacting as if they were perceiving external stimuli. It was something to the effect that the brain could not anticipate the stimuli.
Meanwhile the fMRI in the dreaming study revealed that the visions in dreaming are much more closely associated with the brain activity involved in the imagination in which the brain can well anticipate the material it seems to be synthesizing.
Furthermore when people say they had DMT experiences in their dreams, (and I have too) I don't find it entirely surprising. In regards to any other subject matter from friends/family to places to predicaments to hopes/wishes, etc...when one thinks about these things even a little, but especially if compulsively, it is no surprise at all that these things show up in the dream. If I think about my uncle in the morning, and then at night, I have a dream about him, this is considered normal. In the case of DMT, people can really obsess over thoughts on this topic daily. Many on this forum have expressed anxiety over this obsessive thinking. Not only are there so many thoughts, but they can seem to prioritize themselves to the fore as being extremely important, significant and grand, so when people have constant or regular thoughts that carry a lot of weight, it is only natural that some of that content should be popping up in dreams. It would be shocking if it didn't, but it doesn't necessarily indicate that the two of them are related any more than my uncle is responsible for the fact that I dream.
Meanwhile the fMRI in the dreaming study revealed that the visions in dreaming are much more closely associated with the brain activity involved in the imagination in which the brain can well anticipate the material it seems to be synthesizing.
Furthermore when people say they had DMT experiences in their dreams, (and I have too) I don't find it entirely surprising. In regards to any other subject matter from friends/family to places to predicaments to hopes/wishes, etc...when one thinks about these things even a little, but especially if compulsively, it is no surprise at all that these things show up in the dream. If I think about my uncle in the morning, and then at night, I have a dream about him, this is considered normal. In the case of DMT, people can really obsess over thoughts on this topic daily. Many on this forum have expressed anxiety over this obsessive thinking. Not only are there so many thoughts, but they can seem to prioritize themselves to the fore as being extremely important, significant and grand, so when people have constant or regular thoughts that carry a lot of weight, it is only natural that some of that content should be popping up in dreams. It would be shocking if it didn't, but it doesn't necessarily indicate that the two of them are related any more than my uncle is responsible for the fact that I dream.
My dreams haven't seemed to be effected by DMT. Mostly cause I don't recall my dreams much but lately, haven't dosed in 6 months, I am having better dream recall. I think when significant things happen to you that alone can effect your dreams. Mushrooms, have caused my dreams to be pretty abstract before. So that just goes to show.
The Neural
Rising Star
Hey Global, got a link for that study (or title perhaps)? Interesting to see how they explained that the brain acted as if it was receiving external stimuli during the trip.Global said:
What a substance
Rising Star
Whooshka! If David Icke is your intelligentsia hero and mentor, then good for you; each to his own, and I state that respectfully. It has been hinted by a few here that you might've been better having some experiential matter to draw upon...but you have zilch, save for reading/watching D.Icke. In that respect your questioning is wholly valid but the foundation upon which you beg your question (or was it a stating of premise or opinion) is flaky, flimsy and as far as I can see "fornicated". Still, fair play to you.
I note the word "consciousness" never featured in your post.
Cluck cluck:thumb_dow
I note the word "consciousness" never featured in your post.
Cluck cluck:thumb_dow
