Nde & dmt

[acacian]

Amazing couple posts RisingSpirit.. I must reiterate Joedirt's words.. Wow.... just wow

 

[Hjortron]

Greetings Rising Spirit, I find it very fascinating and exciting to meet someone who's actually familiar with both the NDE and DMT realm at the very same time!

What evolutionary advantage could an NDE or massive release of DMT at point of death confer?

IMHO, it would confer no rational or quantifiable (by sequential analysis) advantage or disadvantage to the individual. Something more enigmatic and profound happens at the point of death. Awareness is not extinguished and this is a primary point to consider.

Indeed, a DMT dump in the brain at the point of (near) biological death would make no sense from an evolutionary perspective, as "giving up and enjoying the bliss" isn't going to help the organism survive. On the other hand, that doesn't refute the DMT dump theory, as it could just be a coincidence that it turned out this way anyway, as not everything in evolution has to have a purpose (as far as I understand it - I'm certainly not well read on the subject ).

But I am of the conviction that chemical molecules released to shift our vision and those exalted visionary states of consciousness encountered, are only part of the overall picture humanoids encounter. And are very difficult to feasibly quantify, rationally, as they are but a part of the whole. This magnificent universe is inarguably, the most impressive system one could possibly imagine with human cognition. It's a wonderful balance, eh?

I feel that that what DMT and other powerful entheogens does, is to facilitate our awareness to be freely able to shift to alternate wave-lengths and frequencies outside of the ordinary material consensus reality view and perception.

I agree. If there is something external to the material world, and our minds can access it, then that might mean that the brain is not a producer of consciousness, but rather a receiver/transmitter of it. Some philosophers and neuroscientists have gone to great lengths to promote (and refute) such a notion, and I find the debate very interesting. Here, under the sub-heading "Articles of Interest", are three interesting pieces of writing on the issue for those who are interested, and here is an additional piece of writing arguing against it.

Little value comes from viewing the process through logical analysis.

Actually, I disagree. I think that it is possible to analyze the subject from a logical and scientific perspective, as long as everyone is in agreement about the fact that logic and science is not the same as the explanatory framework of materialism.

 

[hug46]

Indeed, a DMT dump in the brain at the point of (near) biological death would make no sense from an evolutionary perspective, as "giving up and enjoying the bliss" isn't going to help the organism survive. On the other hand, that doesn't refute the DMT dump theory, as it could just be a coincidence that it turned out this way anyway, as not everything in evolution has to have a purpose (as far as I understand it - I'm certainly not well read on the subject ).

I agree , and i am not well read either. If the Dmt dump at death theory is correct, and maybe the purpose is to help the transition from the material world, i worry about the poor folk who get instantly blown up, or vapourised. I wonder how their transition would be affected if their brains didn"t have enough time to dump the Dmt. Would they just have a rough transition? Or maybe not have a transition at all?
Or maybe the evolutional value in all these theories (whether they hold water or not) is that they just help us to not freak out about dying and wallowing in the pointlessness of it all, because we believe that we will be going somewhere afterwards, in some shape or form.

 

[Hieronymous]

Do we even have any evidence of a "DMT dump" in these situations ?

Could it just be a breakdown in the natural Monoamine oxidase function as pulse rate and metabolism drops or even stops ?

 

[Rising Spirit]

Greetings Rising Spirit, I find it very fascinating and exciting to meet someone who's actually familiar with both the NDE and DMT realm at the very same time!

Honestly, my near, near-death experience was really more like skirting close to the state, without crossing too far into the other side. And I suspect it was no more than 4 or 5 minutes time, as the clock measures these things? Outside of the time-space-continuum, it seemed far greater an expanse of sequence and I seemed to hesitate much longer, locked in some cosmic conundrum. I still vividly recall considering going into the Light, before I understood the need of returning to my physical paradigm. But it did forevermore change my perception of life, death and the nature of self awareness. It was that first "Who am I?" moment. Who and what am I? What is conscious-awareness, after all?

As I said, I've gone deeper and further on psychedelics than from the experience of drowning and separating from my material shell. The 2nd time I did Ecstasy, in 1986, out of only 2 experiences with that molecule, I had a nearly identical experience. Only then, I was unable to recognize just with material body was my own vehicle, in a room with four people seated within it. I knew directly that I was something other than an organism, I was formless awareness and it didn't seem to matter which shell I inhabited, as I was the very same Self within all four beings. I experienced only the faintest of imaginary films separating one mind from the other, one material form from the other. And I never did X again, as the after-effects are so damaging. Pity, as it opens the heart so magnificently.

This was the initial dawning of my idea of the Omniself or the Uni-self. Admittedly, this is a concept I think of through reason. It makes sense ot myself because it adheres to the fabric of my experience. It is essentially symmetrical with my vision of the interrelatedness and unity. So, rationally speaking, I feel that the Omniself is Atman. But I don't believe that Atman is the ultimate level of being, as there are really no ultimates, no limit to that which inexplicably divides itself into being and non-being, exploding duality out of naught. I believe that that mysterious quintessence will forever remain unformed and insubstantial, for it is not a thing. but we are likewise, not exactly things either. We are still that. Tat Tvan Asi. The Void cannot be encapsulated by any proper descriptions, whereas the Atman is self-evident through the experience of the individual awaking to being Atman (and this too, is likely but a dream).

Atman does not equally shine clearly in everything, although it is all-pervading. Atman is only awakened in the intelligence of focused mind, that state of Buddhi; just a reflection is seen clearly in a clean mirror.

Here we see a direct reference to the need for sadhana. The assertion of an individual will and cultivation of a channeled intent, to effectively pierce the illusory membrane of our compression of self, and see the Clear Light of the Void, refracted blindingly upon everything, inside and outside of one's meditative reception.

IME, Atman has it's material exteriors and it's spiritual interiors. As per our personal observations, perceiving from the outside looking in, we all begin our internal search as wholly separate entities, observing the core essence of our existence from our defined, subjective vantage points. Infinite diversity, complexity and originality of self expression. And seemingly, our innate conscious-awareness pulses within a vortex of complete individuality. This is what is referred to as Jivatman in Yogic thought. It could just as easily be termed Poly-self or Multi-self, as it exists within a dichotomous polarity.

From the inside looking out, I have come to believe there exists but a singularity of awareness, which appears to be eternally curious. I know, I know... curiosity is an anthropomorphic projection upon something so vast it cannot be encapsulated with words and this is but an impression decoded upon returning from the inter-phase. But I relate to that same curiosity. What's really happening? What is this reality I believe I perceive? Who and what am I? Etc...

So, maybe it is, and maybe it is not actually curious. We sure as hell are! It simply exists as far as we sense it with our intuition and feel it's vibration within all the myriad phenomena. On some profound level or another, it seems like it is creatively self-perpetuating and a rather self-sustaining fulcrum of conscious-awareness. It surely watches through our eyes, thinks through our brains and feels through our hearts. Ye, in and of itself,it remains free of limitation. It's paradoxical, for sure. But when we go deep enough to discover it's presence, we conversely discover our own illusion. for the divided and the indivisible cannot co-exist in one awareness.

I think that is the that central axis of conscious being which interconnects with all bodies and souls. It's as if we are all holographic projections upon it's insubstantial screen. Call it the hub of Being, the Grid, the matrix or the Field of the Oversoul... but these are all labels and are all mere quantifications about the inter-phase within the Unified Field. to go through the barrier of duality is to completely silence all thought to a still point. This stasis of thought encourages the bloom of our attention, and a fusion within the effulgence of Divine Mind.

Mellen-Thomas Benedict traveled much further into the beyond state. But I think it rather amazing that both routes lead to some extraordinary levels of awareness. Both are Spirit inducing shifts in cognition and seem to naturally traveling into what might be termed, Cosmic Consciousness. Permanent changes in perspective arise from such journeys.

Little value comes from viewing the process through logical analysis.

Actually, I disagree. I think that it is possible to analyze the subject from a logical and scientific perspective, as long as everyone is in agreement about the fact that logic and science is not the same as the explanatory framework of materialism.

I believe you've every valid reason to disagree with the whole idea of freezing the left-brained vantage point. Logic is not abandoned permanently, just stopped for a deep, sustained pause. I guess what I really meant, was that right at the apex of the peak, the full bloom of internal expansion, one's reasoning capacity and the subject-object dynamics of analysis, are not only of little value to merging and thus, transcending the boundaries of our minds, they perpetual the separation.

IMO, they are direct impediments to the immersion, the unfoldment of the experience, as these modes of perception maintain the membrane of the human ego, which insistently seeks to re-establish it's observations. Once the eclipsing with Hyperspacial reality is thoroughly dissipated, then and only then is quantification and categorization useful. As a post-breakthrough reassessment of the journey, contemplative modes and much deep thought, only act to crystallize the epiphany into conceptual terms. And yes, this is not only valuable, it is essential. Just as long as one recognizes the vast differentiation between thinking about the merging or the full eclipsing and maintain the same awareness are not at all the same experience.

 

[Hjortron]

I agree , and i am not well read either. If the Dmt dump at death theory is correct, and maybe the purpose is to help the transition from the material world, i worry about the poor folk who get instantly blown up, or vapourised. I wonder how their transition would be affected if their brains didn"t have enough time to dump the Dmt. Would they just have a rough transition? Or maybe not have a transition at all?

Well, I don't know, but I am personally of the opinion that if there is an afterlife, then it makes little sense that not everyone's ultimately going there Then again, even if it's there, maybe not everyone goes there instantly, who knows.

Do we even have any evidence of a "DMT dump" in these situations ?

Could it just be a breakdown in the natural Monoamine oxidase function as pulse rate and metabolism drops or even stops ?

We have no evidence of a DMT dump in these situations, no. The best evidence, last time I checked this stuff, is the possibility that DMT seems to be produced in the pineal gland in some mice, but not necessarily during death. So that's where the science seems to be at at this moment in time - DMT is produced in the brains of at least some animals, but we have no evidence of it happening in humans, and we have no evidence that DMT is produced (more often than ordinarily) during death in any mammal.

Greetings Rising Spirit, I find it very fascinating and exciting to meet someone who's actually familiar with both the NDE and DMT realm at the very same time!

Honestly, my near, near-death experience was really more like skirting close to the state, without crossing too far into the other side. And I suspect it was no more than 4 or 5 minutes time, as the clock measures these things? Outside of the time-space-continuum, it seemed far greater an expanse of sequence and I seemed to hesitate much longer, locked in some cosmic conundrum. I still vividly recall considering going into the Light, before I understood the need of returning to my physical paradigm. But it did forevermore change my perception of life, death and the nature of self awareness. It was that first "Who am I?" moment. Who and what am I? What is conscious-awareness, after all?

As I said, I've gone deeper and further on psychedelics than from the experience of drowning and separating from my material shell. The 2nd time I did Ecstasy, in 1986, out of only 2 experiences with that molecule, I had a nearly identical experience. Only then, I was unable to recognize just with material body was my own vehicle, in a room with four people seated within it. I knew directly that I was something other than an organism, I was formless awareness and it didn't seem to matter which shell I inhabited, as I was the very same Self within all four beings. I experienced only the faintest of imaginary films separating one mind from the other, one material form from the other. And I never did X again, as the after-effects are so damaging. Pity, as it opens the heart so magnificently.

Interesting. Most other NDErs (who have commented on the issue, that I'm aware of) say that the NDE blows any psychedelic experience they've ever had out of the water. But as you didn't enter the light and seemed to have a relatively light NDE (which admittedly is the most common type of NDE), it might be more understandable. Have you ever heard of the Greyson scale? If you wouldn't mind, I'd love for you to grade your experience!

Either way, here's what another NDEr said of her experience:

"I would like to mention something else that isn't talked about much and that's hallucinogens. Hoping to recreate the experience, I've tried several drugs, including LSD, mushrooms, and ecstasy. These experiences were all wonderful, interesting, intriguing, fascinating, but there is a big difference. Yes, you get to explore other levels of consciousness but there is often a feeling of loss of control and fear that does not occur during an NDE. With the drugs, there is a surreal feeling, but with the NDE it feels more real than this life. With drugs, it's more an experience is happening to you. With the NDE, you're the experience, the experience is of yourself, your consciousness. A good thing about hallucinogens though is that they give people (who haven't had an NDE) a glimpse into altered states of consciousness and an awareness that there is more to us than we've been led to believe."

But as you yourself is an example of, this isn't what everyone's saying, and that's what's so fascinating to me

From the inside looking out, I have come to believe there exists but a singularity of awareness, which appears to be eternally curious. I know, I know... curiosity is an anthropomorphic projection upon something so vast it cannot be encapsulated with words and this is but an impression decoded upon returning from the inter-phase. But I relate to that same curiosity. What's really happening? What is this reality I believe I perceive? Who and what am I? Etc...

So, maybe it is, and maybe it is not actually curious. We sure as hell are! It simply exists as far as we sense it with our intuition and feel it's vibration within all the myriad phenomena. On some profound level or another, it seems like it is creatively self-perpetuating and a rather self-sustaining fulcrum of conscious-awareness. It surely watches through our eyes, thinks through our brains and feels through our hearts. Ye, in and of itself,it remains free of limitation. It's paradoxical, for sure. But when we go deep enough to discover it's presence, we conversely discover our own illusion. for the divided and the indivisible cannot co-exist in one awareness.

I think that is the that central axis of conscious being which interconnects with all bodies and souls. It's as if we are all holographic projections upon it's insubstantial screen. Call it the hub of Being, the Grid, the matrix or the Field of the Oversoul... but these are all labels and are all mere quantifications about the inter-phase within the Unified Field. to go through the barrier of duality is to completely silence all thought to a still point. This stasis of thought encourages the bloom of our attention, and a fusion within the effulgence of Divine Mind.

Mellen-Thomas Benedict traveled much further into the beyond state. But I think it rather amazing that both routes lead to some extraordinary levels of awareness. Both are Spirit inducing shifts in cognition and seem to naturally traveling into what might be termed, Cosmic Consciousness. Permanent changes in perspective arise from such journeys.

No actually I agree, and I don't think that curiosity is an anthropocentric concept, I think that all of nature/reality is curious in one way or another. I think every single entity and creature is curious about most stuff (if not everything) once they're honest with themselves, and feel that they have the energy to explore. I think that the reason we suppress our natural curiosity for things in daily life, and especially as we grow older, is only because we want to prioritize our energy to other things (like survival and the securitization of material comforts). But in our natural state of being, where we have no worries, I don't think there's not anything we aren't really curious about

Little value comes from viewing the process through logical analysis.

Actually, I disagree. I think that it is possible to analyze the subject from a logical and scientific perspective, as long as everyone is in agreement about the fact that logic and science is not the same as the explanatory framework of materialism.

I believe you've every valid reason to disagree with the whole idea of freezing the left-brained vantage point. Logic is not abandoned permanently, just stopped for a deep, sustained pause. I guess what I really meant, was that right at the apex of the peak, the full bloom of internal expansion, one's reasoning capacity and the subject-object dynamics of analysis, are not only of little value to merging and thus, transcending the boundaries of our minds, they perpetual the separation.

IMO, they are direct impediments to the immersion, the unfoldment of the experience, as these modes of perception maintain the membrane of the human ego, which insistently seeks to re-establish it's observations. Once the eclipsing with Hyperspacial reality is thoroughly dissipated, then and only then is quantification and categorization useful. As a post-breakthrough reassessment of the journey, contemplative modes and much deep thought, only act to crystallize the epiphany into conceptual terms. And yes, this is not only valuable, it is essential. Just as long as one recognizes the vast differentiation between thinking about the merging or the full eclipsing and maintain the same awareness are not at all the same experience.

Yes, I see where you're coming from. Using logic during these experiences is not always the way to go, if ever. I was indeed talking about the post-analysis of the experiences of people (and/or yourself), and I think that logic/rationality is wholly welcome and beneficial in doing so.

 

[Kurukulla]

There are further astounding NDEs here.

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I'm starting to read a few a day.

It kinda helps me remember my dmt experiences and generally keep 'awake' to the true reality of nature...

I.e

Earth is a school

I choose to be here to learn something ( not sure what yet ! )

Reality is all an illusion

My thoughts create my reality

There are infinite universes

God is everthing literally !

I am a actually a piece of god but have forget that

All these things and more get shown to you when you die or on dmt