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Passifloras of Interest..(& MAOI plant Flavonoids)

Migrated topic.
..thanks, but wira, having not had a chance to read that P. incarnata paper..what was the exact methodology? while their abstract says "The efficiency of the method was demonstrated with Peganum harmala seeds.", i think most extractors would find p. harmala a lot easier/quicker to extract than passiflora's..something doesn't feel right here..
a lot of these more recent tests have simply soaked material in cold solvent for 15 mins to a hour..you can't efficiently extract alkaloids like this..most underground extractors report c0.2% alkaloid from P. incarnata..Eskil Hulin's proccedure i've outlined earler..this was a thorough extraction method (yielding 0.2%)

wira wrote:
The bioassay of harman + DMT was first reported by Ott in Ayahuasca Analogues as a self-experiment.
Sure, harman definitely shows MAOI activity in vitro in various non-human animal organs, but such activity has not been shown in vivo as far as I know. I'm not sure what more recent papers I have on harman; I'll have to dig out the older stuff from my files and find the IC data from those. I don't remember them finding it to be that potent as you report, but I haven't looked at this stuff for a while.
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..ok, ONE experiment..(& was the source verified) vs. most of the bio-medical community (including chemical suppliers) saying it's a potent MAOI..most of the work on Harman's MAOI activity and on the IC-50 values of Flavonoids has been done in the past 5-8 years..if there are no other reported human experiments like Ott's , i don't really think, given the enzyme evidence, that we can take it that seriously/definitively..i notice erowid comments of this experiemnt:
It should be mentioned that Gracie & Zarkov reported persistent and pronounced unpleasant side-effects when using Passiflora incarnata extract as an oral activator, which they did not experience from Banisteriopsis or Peganum. Whether this is due to the aforementioned β-carbolines in Passiflora or to other extracted components was never determined. As a general statement, Harman is usually by far the major alkaloid in the Passiflora species. Harmine and harmaline, when present, are most often present only in relatively small amounts.
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if P. subpeltata contains principally Harman (as reported) than, from bioassay, either Harman is a very potent MAOI, or the Flavonoids in it are through-the-roof potent (compared to known flavonoids)..it was really not like harmine plants i've worked with..
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so, i think we need more science/experiments, and need to stop searching for old info. on Passifloras..cause there isn't really a lot..
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Just reading up and a vendor has the lady of Margaret listed as (P. miniata x P. incarnata white).
 
..hey thanks ntwhtyouknw..hope i'm doing ok.:)

just wanted to mention about the erowid quote about Gracie & Zarkov's P. incarnata use contradicts my own experience (and several others), who found it very pleasant..
but erowid may be confused..G & Z reported incarnata had the most 'fuzziness' or 'wooziness', compared to caapi & rue, which doesn't exactly mean extreme 'unpleasant side-effects'..

& wira, thanks for all your knowledge..if i'm a bit combatant over Harman, it's because i feel many interesting things have been overlooked due to very limited reports from underground writers like Ott (or Rastch)
..the strong activity of some Passifloras strongly indicates Harman and/or Flavonoids need to be better understood by the 'entheogenic' research community..

below, another P. incarnata..
 

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The only way to ttruly figure out what these different varieties have to offer is to grow and experiment. Since most won't be easy to locate in garden centers or even online as established plants I'm researching for decent seed vendors and by fall i will begin to try and start to germinate before winter so next year I can have some going.
 
Irie,
The only passionfruit I have in my yard right now is, Passiflora quadrangularis.

Respect,
Z
 

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..hey hi everyone!

i'm sure the wine would be good Parshvik Chintan..:) ethanol is a good extractor..

..and nice one Zaka, cheers..:) ..House described unprecedented effects with the flower of P. quadrangularis on p.1..one of the more certainly active species..watch the diet though..!

ntwhtyouknw , thanks again, wrote:
Just reading up and a vendor has the lady of Margaret listed as (P. miniata x P. incarnata white).
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Passiflora miniata was named as a distinct species in 2006 by Vanderplank..
..species from Bolivia, Brazil and Colombia, which has been extensively cultivated under the erroneous name Passiflora coccinea Aubl., is here described as P. miniata
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..below P. miniata..the petals are wider & shorter, and the flower smaller than P. coccinea (often mistaken for it)..
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nen888 said:
i'm sure the wine would be good Parshvik Chintan..:) ethanol is a good extractor.
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awesome!
now my second question is: do you know if it is possible to somehow evaporate the ethanol out of wine, leaving essentially a crude extract/juice?
 
I just got this plant yesterday.. It's labeled as a P. incarnata but I wanted to verify that it was indeed labeled correctly.

It seems to have more plum color on the back petals than the typical P. incarnata's do but what do I know?
 

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..lovely MelCat:)..looks like incarnata crossed with a little bit of something else..there looks like a bit of caeurlea, which is often crossed with incarnata, and some pink/mauve coloring from somewhere else..check the various P. incarnata pics earlier the thread..
there are a few varieties of 'straight' incarnata, such as 'alba'..
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I haven't had time to go over everything I've got filed away on the subject, but from what I gather, harman has been reported to be a potent MAOI in rodent liver, but a very weak one in rodent brain tissue. Also, the MAOI activity of a given chemical can be quite different depending on the substrate, so figures are only really comparable in cases where the same substrate was used (eg. tryptamine), and the same body parts or cell cultures. One recent paper on MAOIs of dietary origin was flawed in that it attempted to produce meaningfully comparable figures by using purified MAO A, which might not reflect what happens in a complex living human (same goes for the animal tissue studies) and ignored the different response in liver vs brain MAO inhibition. (It also looked at flavonoids, and was likewise flawed because of only paying any attention to quercetin, ignoring other flavonoids and their probable synergistic interactions.)
I'm not trying to say it has been proven that harman is not an effective MAOI for DMT in humans, based on this and Ott's one experiment (btw he didn't make it clear if that was one experiment, or if it was the highest dose combination attempted before giving up). I'm just trying to clarify how little we know, and that's it's premature to assume that harman must be an active MAOI in humans based on Passiflora experiments.
Of course it depends on the species of Passiflora and a host of other things, but at least in the case of incarnata, harmine and harmaline have been found at similar or greater concentration to harman, at least some of the time. Likewise I'm not trying to say Rehwald's conclusions are the final word or without fault, I'm just telling you that her paper is what most people in the herbal med world are taking as the new established fact. Re: yields, a lot of phytochemical papers seem to be more concerned with identifying components than establishing accurate concentrations and obtaining maximum yield from the plant matter - many workers publish estimated yields based on HPLC, which gives a possibly false sense of accuracy when these figures are presented as precise.
Anyway, here is Rehwald & co's methods for the initial extraction -
"Dried and pulverized plant material (5g) was extracted in a Soxhlet apparatus with 150mL of methanol for 5h. The extract was evaporated to dryness under vacuum..."
Did you need the rest of the procedure or is that sufficient?

Btw, I don't agree that we "need to stop searching for old info. on Passifloras..cause there isn't really a lot.." You'll never stop me searching for old info :lol: And there is so much literature on Passiflora! I do agree that more experiments are needed, though...
 
^..that should extract something..there must be a lot of variation in P. incarnata or it really is the Flavonoids responsible for the effects..
and the previously mentioned P. alba (supbeltata)..either Harman is potent (or it had different harmalas), or the flavonoids are incredibly potent MAOIs..

btw, few are as good as you at digging up old and interesting info wira..i certainly wouldn't try to stop that..:)

just meant we need more tests..

re Harman, i am yet to access this paper in full
Identification and Occurrence of β-Carboline Alkaloids in Raisins and Inhibition of Monoamine Oxidase (MAO) Herraiz 2007, but it will have more detail on the MAOI testing proceedure:
"Raisin extracts and homogenates exhibited reversible in vitro inhibition of MAO isozymes...β-Carbolines were isolated from raisins and acted as good competitive inhibitors of MAO-A (harman) and MAO-B (norharman) isozymes."
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..so after reading the above attached paper, and beginning to follow a few references mentioned in it, i'm more confident of the probable MAOI activity of Harman..
wira wrote:
but from what I gather, harman has been reported to be a potent MAOI in rodent liver, but a very weak one in rodent brain tissue.
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..i feel this finding may be anomalous to most, or not applicable to humans or even in error of methodology/interpretation..i would really like to see the detail..by most accepted methods of MAOI testing Harman looks active..similar methodology correctly predicts that Tetrahydroharman is of almost no activity orally, but has CNS activity once in the brain..my understanding of MAOI in general says that, if sufficient inhibition levels are achieved in the gut or liver, the entire MAO system (incl. the brain) is affected..

..btw, Tomas Herraiz from the Spanish Council for Scientific Research (author of the MAOI Raisin paper) is a current betacarboline expert and legend..
amongst his many works, he also co-authored with with C. Chaparro "Human monoamine oxidase is inhibited by tobacco smoke" in 2005, which studied Harman, the main ß-carboline in tobacco smoke..

..next i'm going read his co-authored paper "Identification and occurence of tryptamine- and tryptophan-derived tetrahydro-ß-carbolines in commercial sausages" J. Agric. Food Chem. 1997.
..there's a lifetime of research just in betacarbolines really..
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..update on Passiflora coccinea..rcently an A/B was done on some leaf and stem, and obtained what seem to be red/brown alkaloids, presumably harmalas due to fluorescence..as the species has been successfully used to activate dmt orally (by 2 people in one experiment, see earlier in thread), and the leaf has been smoked by numerous people to induce pleasant effects, this extract will be bio-assayed in the future..
only gylcosides have been previously reported from coccinea, but this is presumably because no tests were done for alkaloids..
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I just had 1 cup of tea of P. Incarnata and, lo and behold... the effect on me personally is way stronger than any SSRI I have taken. I don't like the taste, but, boy, this plant works wonders... Plus I find it incredibly beautiful, gonna buy a potted one soon for my room ;)

Thank you for this thread.:thumb_up:
 
I am so mad at Richters, for canceling both my P. Incarnata & P. Edulis orders with "not available" excuse. Also how come their packaging and quality of live plants is surprisingly that poor, supposed to be a large player in the plants and seeds arena... Arggg...

I really want those as house plants.

Anybody knows of any good vendors, preferably in Canada, preferably Ontario, but not limited to (to minimize shipping costs) ?

Thanx
 
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