Passionflower + LSD / Mescaline / Mushrooms. Which dosage?

[brewster]

Hey guys,
I read through the numerous threads about combining Passionflower with LSD, Mescaline, Datura seeds etc. This really intrigued me and I'm going to try this out.

There seems t o be little info about the question of dosage. Some people just talk about using a few grams to make tea, others went up to using 100g leaf at once via an extract. It seeems odd that a few grams to it for some, but 100g isn't too much for others.

It seems that, in order to use it as a serious MAOI, one would need quite a lot of material, but that there seems another synergy, probably flavonoid-based, which to a certain extent modifies the experience given other psychedelics.

Is there some information on how much to use to combine it with moderate doses of, say, LSD and Mescaline especially? Is there a 'too much'?

(Certainly, all info is appreciated. I just have 0 experience with DMT and Datura, so I didn't follow these questions too closely)

 

[grollum]

Hey there,

don't take Datura at all and especially don't take it with MAO inhibiting plants in combination. Datura alone can kill you if used in the wrong way.
Please have a look what the principle behind MAOI means. Its not something you take to increase what ever substance you take together with it.

Its much more complex and can be very dangerous depending on what substances get combined together with the MAOI.

Why do you want to combine LSD and Mescaline with MAOI? They are strong enough and good controllable alone and don't need any activation.

 

[pastanostra]

last year, we experimented with friends passiflora tea and LSD.
it was a awesome experience.
All the day (starting the morning) we eaten fruits (including passiflora edulis fruits) and drank all the day passiflora tea. We may have drink above 1,5L during the day. The night we took LSD and teas too. Each tea was made of 5/7g passiflora aerial parts for 4 ppl. Accompanied with weed, we can say we were relax !

:thumb_up:

 

[AcaciaConfusedYah]

Third, why do you want to combine LSD and Mescaline with MAOI? They are strong enough and good controllable alone and don't need any activation.

I (mostly) agree with the parts that weren't included in the quote. Aside from calling them MAOI - harmala alks are reversible and have a much much much MUCH shorter half-life than pharmaceutical MAOI drugs.

Now - to the important part: if you wanted to conserve your drugs and get the effects of "X" ug LSD but only have to take "X/2" ug... that would be a valid reason. The X and the X/2 are arbitrary and should only be conceptualized for reference.

For safety sake - let's look at mescaline. Most cacti have some kind of RIMA along with mescaline and other alks. So, even though mescaline is a phen, if you eat a raw cactus or tea, you'll be getting some lighter doses of RIMA. So, let's pretend that I have a finite source of mescaline (this is not true, I grow cacti - there will always be mescaline in my heart. Of all the wonderful natural psyches, mescaline is likely my favorite.) Let's pretend that I have 500 mg, and I want a "500 mg experience." Well, i could eat the entire 500 mg, and have 1 great experience... or, i could add the appropriate (and safe quantities) RIMA to 250 mg of mescaline. I may not quite get to the expected 500 mg goal, but if i get to a 450 mg equivalent from 250 mg mescaline and "Z" amount of RIMA.... then they are worth mixing.


However - if you have plenty of mescaline, lsd, mushrooms, or whatever.... then maybe it's not worth bothering with the RIMA. Playing with chemicals in our body leads to new discoveries.
.. even if the new discovery is not desireable.

So - let's assume a user "Bob" sees a doctor because he is having trouble with depression. Bob gets prescribed a blend of SSRI in order to help maintain "stability." Bob doesn't really think much about it, but decides that he wants to take aya. Fine, who wouldn't want aya? (Am i right?!?!) So Bob starts working up his brew, without much consideration. Drinks the aya.... this could go very wrong and risk safety/life.

So, Bob reads that the interaction would be negative... so, decides to freeze and save the brew. Unknowing threat cacti also has mild RIMA, Bob makes a cacti tea, instead. Drinks it, has a great trip. He later learns that cacti have inhibitors - so... thre are some things that are understudied. But, I don't suggest being the subject of the experiment.


Take Care,
ACY

 

[Sabnock1990]

This kinda stuff goes beyond MAOI's and potentiation, it's mainly about the compounds in plants and using the plants as admixture plants which alter/flavor or possibly enhance the Psychedelic experience, and there's so many possible flavors of the Psychedelic experience because there's so many plants and supplements and such that one can mix with their Psychedelic in order to flavor it in some desirable way.

And, there's only really a few select things you shouldn't mix with MAO-A inhibition, with traditional Aya there's hundreds of plant allies/admixture plants the shamans can choose to add to their brew if they want to, that's what Ayahuasca is all about, herbal synergy and herbal concoctions. Sure you may not wanna fool around with Datura if you don't know what you're doing, but i've read many reports of people using a few seeds to like counteract motion sickness, i don't see an issue with that.

I personally use Lemon Balm leaf as an admixture plant, works great. Wanna try Passion Flower at some point as an admixture plant, don't need it for the trace Harmine content.

 

[brewster]

Hey guys, thanks for your responses!

don't take Datura at all

Thanks for the warning. I agree that this is very dangerous. I don't intend to take this any time soon, but for completeness' sake, I wanted to mention that 2-3 Seeds seem to be safe. This has been discussed before as "passionoxia" here on the nexus.

Why do you want to combine LSD and Mescaline with MAOI? They are strong enough and good controllable alone and don't need any activation.

I assume that with moderate amounts of passionflower, the MAOI effect actually is negligible. I mean amounts one could prepare as tea: 5-20g. As far as I understood, it doesn't necessarily lead to a stronger experience (unlike more powerful MAOIs like syrian rue). But it seems to modify the trip, giving it a dreamier, more relaxed general impression.

For example:

I don't know why but passionflower is so underrated, especially in the entheogen community. Few people try it, and opt instead for caapi or rue almost exclusively. But passionflower is a great admixture for nearly all psychedelics. Despite it's low MAOI activity, it adds a new dimension to the experience. Often making the trip more dreamy, relaxed, and euphoric, without dulling the experience.

The effect alone is mild, and it’s MAOI effects are so weak that it can be used with pretty much anything without ill effect, unlike rue or caapi.

(Source of quote)

last year, we experimented with friends passiflora tea and LSD.
it was a awesome experience.

Nice to hear! While we have almost never the fruits or flowers in the cold countries, using the leaf should yield similar results, I assume.

I may not quite get to the expected 500 mg goal, but if i get to a 450 mg equivalent from 250 mg mescaline and "Z" amount of RIMA.... then they are worth mixing.

I don't know if this works at all. Maybe with rue or caapi, but I assume that the trip strength will remain approximately the same. It might be different if one uses so much passionflower for one session that the MAOI properties really come into effect. Say, 300g or more.

And that is what the central question was - are there any guidelines for that? My hypothesis would be:
Provided that someone is taking a reasonable dose of a psychedelic which will bring about a, say, medium-strength experience, the following might happen:

1) If this person added 5-20g of tea made of passionflower, this would change the trip and make it more visual, introspective, dreamy. Less stimulating and edgy. The MAOI properties arent very effective at that point, instead other interactions are at work. Perhaps the flavonoids?

2) If someone were to use a larger amount of passionflower, for example an extract from 200-300g, this would be closer to stronger MAOI plants like rue or caapi. This means true MAOI properties, a significantly stronger trip that lasts for a longer time and probably will be a different experience altogether.

 

[rOm]

I liked very much passiflora incarnata and LSD. I used quite a lot of the tincture this day. I tried also brtewing tea but this wasn't as strong as an hydro alcoholic extract. Made my LSD trip calmer and I could sleep on it after 6 hours on 100Mics.. I recommened.
For datura, I mixed but no more than 5 seeds datura stramonium or inoxia ( they tend to be strong the inoxia seeds so lets say 3 inoxia seeds or 5 stramonium seeds ).
Be careful when mixing things, especially RIMA with strong things like LSD or dangerous things like tropanes.. or evcen more if you mix everything together !! risk zone.. read report in erowid it will likely turn you off !

 

[grollum]

@brewster I think I got you wrong a little bit. Also reducing passionflower to only its MAOI powers was not right.

I as well think that this plant is really underrated. It is so simple to grow and can even handle frost in the winter.

I once took 100g of herb cooked down to a thick tea which was not really enjoyable. The effect was really interesting in the beginning but got unpleasant after some hours when it didn't stop and I could not sleep because my body was in high power mode till the morning.

I am not sure what really happend. I drank a lot of matcha before the Passionflower tea and ate a soy and protein/tyramine rich curry some hours after drinking the tea cause I didn't thought that the MAOi of the passionflower is strong. That might have been a mistake.

I will try the same dose again with some fasting beforehand to see if it was the combination of food and tea.

In another thread someone takes 200g passionflower tea to activate DMT. Can not remember who exactly this was.

 

[Sabnock1990]

grollum - I think it was Nen who used PF to orally activate DMT, iirc, he said it worked but was concerned about the other compounds in the plant getting in the way of things so it's probably better used as an admixture plant rather than a source of Harmine/MAO-A inhibition. Also there's no Tyramine reactions with reversible MAO-A inhibition so no worries there.

 

[brewster]

Yeah grollum, thanks for the heads-up. This was the main intention of the thread - to establish some rough guidelines on how much to use from Passionflower, and what to expect.

So you only took the 100g with the matcha, but without additional substances, right? That's interesting.

I mean, many people report that passionflower helps them sleep. But then, caffeeine is a funny thing. Some people are kept awake if they consume any tea / coffee in the afternoon, others aren't bothered. I even heard a doctor recommend some coffee or tea to a child with ADHD, because it helps some people go to sleep. So, without further info, all kinds of interactions are possible.
The polyphenols in tea are supposed to cause a slower and more gradual absorption of caffeine - reducing the kick, and preventing the drop that is caused by coffee. This is pure speculation - maybe the added flavonoids from the Passionflower caused some kind of interaction? Are you generally sensitive to caffeine?

With 100g of passionflower, the MAOI properties will probably start to be more effective than with lower doses, right?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Harmala alkaloids can make caffeine qualitatively stronger and longer-lasting by competitive inhibition of metabolic enzymes (cytochrome P450 oxidase, possibly the CYP1A2 subtype, besides CYP2D6 and CYP3A4). Harmine and harmaline also, for example, inhibit the induction of CYP1A1 by TCDD ('dioxin') so they clearly have an effect on metabolic enzyme activity beyond their capacity as MAO inhibitors.

Furthermore - Passionflower species are, typically, rich in flavonoids which are also well-known for their wide range of biological and metabolic activities. Don't underestimate this!

(Also, I'm glad to see you're not planning on combining passionflower with MDMA, as the title of the thread might seem to suggest.)

 

[brewster]

That's some great content, downwardsfromzero. Very interesting to read what these alkaloids can do. So it's good to watch the caffeeine very carefully intake when handling harmala alkaloids. With many other pssible interactions, too.
You're right, I was imprecise in the title. I edited it to make this more precise. Thanks for the heads-up.

 

[grollum]

So you only took the 100g with the matcha, but without additional substances, right? That's interesting.

Yes would say 2 to 3 teaspoons of matcha. Nothing else. I had a similar effect with mixing Kratom and Matcha.

With 100g of passionflower, the MAOI properties will probably start to be more effective than with lower doses, right?

Sure! I would agree with this. Until a certain threshold dosage is reached.

Harmala alkaloids can make caffeine qualitatively stronger and longer-lasting by competitive inhibition of metabolic enzymes (cytochrome P450 oxidase, possibly the CYP1A2 subtype, besides CYP2D6 and CYP3A4). Harmine and harmaline also, for example, inhibit the induction of CYP1A1 by TCDD ('dioxin') so they clearly have an effect on metabolic enzyme activity beyond their capacity as MAO inhibitors.

Furthermore - Passionflower species are, typically, rich in flavonoids which are also well-known for their wide range of biological and metabolic activities. Don't underestimate this!

Thanks for the details downwardsfromzero. Was not sure about this. So it might be enough to only skip the Matcha. But I will have a more MAO optimized diet next time I try the passion.

 

[brewster]

Interesting. I assume that you normally consume this much Matcha without any issues? For me, 2-3 teaspoons of Matcha powder would yield the result you described without any other substances needed. If I use 1-2 chashakus (the traditional bamboo spoon), this is about 1/2 tsp, and I'm quite stimulated by it... sometimes I get light pounding of the heart from this. But then, I know people who consume 2 tsp of Matcha at 21.00, and two hours later they go to bed and sleep like babies :lol:.

Normally, I love some Green Tea with my trips. But if one eats a whole cactus, there's already so much liquied :shock: . Impossible to drink even more.

 

[0_o]

I've used up to a half a dozen Datura seeds in brews as an anti-nausea component.
At low doses like this it is harmless and not even enough to be a psychoactive.
However Dramamine works the same way, it also causes the same type of hallucinations in high doses. Not really worth experimenting with, I've done it several times when I was much younger and it was wasn't really something enjoyable or productive.
It is also bad for your brain, can cause a certain type of lesion, like Datura and DXM and booze.