~Phalaris = The Way Of The Future~

[3rdI]

Long time ago Phalaris was the first plant tried to make an extract from, like the grass I was a bit green in those days and thought it would be easy, not, turns out phalaris is full of chlorophyll that needs gallons of solvent and multiple washes to get rid of. IMO a complete waste of time, compared with root bark it sucks, i would only use it if and when everything else is illegal and/or unobtainable, and if prohibitions continue to infringe that may well come to pass.

Nothing like a bit of optimism :roll:

 

[jamie]

Long time ago Phalaris was the first plant tried to make an extract from, like the grass I was a bit green in those days and thought it would be easy, not, turns out phalaris is full of chlorophyll that needs gallons of solvent and multiple washes to get rid of. IMO a complete waste of time, compared with root bark it sucks, i would only use it if and when everything else is illegal and/or unobtainable, and if prohibitions continue to infringe that may well come to pass.

You need to update your extraction knowledge. There are easy ways to get around defats altogether..it is call salting. Trying once or twice with grass also means nothing. Go through some of the threads we have on the grasses here and you will understand why.

 

[JourneyToJah]

I saw somewhere in the last few pages of that topic that someone talked about breeding the grass. I think this is a wonderful idea. I have some background with cannabis and I think that some information and following to see if it reacts to photoperiod to flower (like cannabis?) and maybe keep it in veg to increase yield.

Also, because of the high variety of the containing alkaloids ( wanted/unwanted ) in subspecies I think that maybe they can be hybridized to increase the wanted ones and decrease the unwanted ones.

Anyone tried or knows anything about this?

 

[endlessness]

Check my signature link, has link to great publication with info on conditions that affect alkaloid growth, etc... Also it's covered in the FAQ.

I think gettng a clone of AQ1 or Big Medicine is your best bet, so you dont have to reinvent the wheel

 

[Kasura]

8 or 9 seeds of P.brachystachys have sprouted in the last few days. Can't wait for this

So is 6 months the accepted maturation period?

 

[JourneyToJah]

Gave it an overnight sleep and woke up with some new ideas ( dumb questions maybe :lol: ).

Has anyone tried brewing the Phalaris? Anyone tried boiling it on low fire for 24+ hrs like San Pedro resin extractions?
Also... are any of you familiar with the BHO cannabis extraction? Maybe it could be another start to a new tek. I dont know much chem but I'm in with an open mind, so I'm asking many questions.

I am sorry if I don't contribute to the project much but maybe it can help.

Also, I'll come back with some photos of what I've got in the garden.

 

[JourneyToJah]

Sorry for the double post, here are some pics. Hope its enough to ID.

I got pretty excited cuz it looks pretty much like what I'm looking for ( poor knowledge tho ).

I can also make some photos of the batch if needed. They grew close to my pool, next to some other plants.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

Has anyone tried brewing the Phalaris?

Yes, it has been done quite a bit for many years now.
It is used by some people as an ayahuasca analog.

Anyone tried boiling it on low fire for 24+ hrs like San Pedro resin extractions?

Maybe not as long as 24 hours, but yes this has been done, long boils and reduction to a tar like substance.

Also... are any of you familiar with the BHO cannabis extraction? Maybe it could be another start to a new tek.

It has been tried with DMT containing things and does not work well, but some variation on it might work. One of the issues is that cannabis oils are soluble in butane and isobutane but alkaloid salts are not, so if you could make the alkaloids freebase and then try the extraction it might work better, and people have tried this but nobody has reported it working well.

The photos are not Phalaris species, which are very easy to identify once you know what to look for. look at pictures of the flowering parts of Phalaris, they are rather distinct

 

[endlessness]

Gramine and other possibly toxic alkaloids easily migrate to the acqueous layer. Using phalaris as an ayahuasca analogue is not safe, you would be a guinea pig risking your health. There's no long history of phalaris oral use that we really know of, no study of potential toxicity of some of these alkaloids in humans, and phalaris varies a lot in alkaloid content. Just because a small number of people have done it without apparent damage does not mean that it is safe, it might be they are doing yet-unseen damage to themselves, or that they were lucky. Please do NOT ingest a crude phalaris brew.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

Gramine and other possibly toxic alkaloids easily migrate to the acqueous layer. Using phalaris as an ayahuasca analogue is not safe, you would be a guinea pig risking your health... Please do NOT ingest a crude phalaris brew.

The effects of gramine are increased blood pressure and heart rate.

This has been noted with the aya preps using phalaris brews, with the exception of when the grass is simmered for only a few minutes. Phalaris has been used as an aya analog since the 1990s or so, it has not even seen 20 years of use. Certainly more research and work is needed. However the pioneers in this field were able to test for gramine and do all sorts of work with that, so they were at far less risk than I would be if I tried to do something like that.


I agree with you though.
I would not take an aya brew made from Phalaris.

 

[JourneyToJah]

http://council.wisconsinforestry.org/invasives/pdf/Plants/BMP%20Reed%20Canary%20Grass.pdf

The ones I've found look like reed canary grass. Im gonna go have a better look.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

The other day I went and harvested fresh tips (1st 2-3 leaves from the top) of Phalaris arundinacea, simmered them with a dash of citric acid, reduced the brew, filtered, evaporated to a residue, did an alcohol extraction of the residue, reduced that, filtered that and reduced again to a residue, then I added baking soda (decent amount, to get to pH 10 or so) and water, then I reduced that to a residue and did another alcohol extraction of that residue.

I wanted to make sure I got a rich alkaloid spectrum and the plants I chose came from a population with a lot of genetic diversity. The resulting substance is reddish in mass, but thin sections of it are bright fluorescent yellow. More interesting, it smells like a yopo extraction, it smells like bufotenine!

Since I have no clue what is in there, I won't likely experiment with the extract.


I have no camera, but the residue is crystallizing with little DMT like crystals, only I don't know that they are DMT and they don't smell like it.

 

[Jarl Von Hoother]

Hello everyone, Phalaris grass is NOT the way to go. I repeat Phalaris grass is not NOT the way to go!

WHY? one would ask thinking with all the DMT brimming (which is actually 5-Meo-DMT)

Not to mention that the super neurotoxin, Gramine which causes unaware sheep grazing among the fields to suddenly die. Due to it's lethal potential to cause severe brain damage, you cannot get rid of it.

I guess I have repeat myself when I say Phalaris grass is NOT the way to go!

Stick with the MHRB, acacia and if you're making ayahuasca- psychotria viridis and for those daring to try 5-MEO-DMT try chagliponga or virola root bark.

Do NOT use phalaris

 

[nen888]

..i absolutely agree it is best to stick with a known strain, and that using Phalaris extract as 'pharmahusca' is the safest option..
but, and correct me if i'm wrong, as far as i know the only reported 'negative' side-effects of ingesting unknown Phalaris-ayahusca brews is "too strong" (by Samorini)
..it's usually only poor livestock who seem to get the 'staggers'..

 

[The Meddling Monk]

Some Phalaris stuff I spotted the other day that I don't recall in the thread.
First, on growing and increasing alks:

STRESSING

Alkaloids in phalarii can be increased with stressing. Stressing, on the other hand, slows the growth and decreases the total yield. I will refer to any action that increases the total alkaloid-yield by stressing. These methods work for both P. arundinacea and aquatica. There are three basic methods in stressing: clipping, shading and moisture control.
Clipping is relatively easy. Take clean scissors into your right hand, hold the plant still with your left hand, and SNIP, your plant just got stressed. But simply clipping the plants shorter will decrease your total yield. Wait until the plant is about 10 or 20 cm (1/2') high. Cut right above the leaf. Wait until you get another leaf, above which to cut, could be two days or two weeks. Clipping increases tryptamine content by 50 % to even 400%. The amount of betacarbolines is roughly doubled.
Shading is quite controversial issue. Shading slows the growth, and seems to affect different strains different ways. I will try to shed some light into shadows. First of all, you will probably grow your plants indoors, and if these plants are not on the windowsill, they will not be receiving anything near the light plants outdoors do, where all the studies are made. Forget shading. If you grow yours outdoors/near good light source, shading might be useful. Shade the plants for their last 1/4th or 1/5th of the growing-period.
In practice, placing a sheet of glass/plexiglass or a thin net between the plants and the light source should work. Glass eats anything from couple to 20% (dirty) of the light.
Amount of shading is quite troublesome, too. General mean value would be maybe 5 to 15%. Arundinacea responds to smaller shifts, halve the figures. Shading increases the tryptamine content by 20 to 30%.
Moisture-stressing is also quite easy. You don't water for a week or so. Interestingly, plants droughted for a long time produce some unknown alkaloid. Young plants respond better to drought, whereas older (+30d) may not show any response in respect to the alkaloid content. Regrowths grown from droughted plants (which did not show response) had a higher alkaloid content. If you wilt, wilt young plants. No water for a period of 5 to 10 days. If any damage (brown leaf tips etc.) begins to show, stop wilting. Note that although the plants cannot be rotted to death with overwatering, it slows the growth. Let the soil dry out every now and then. Phalaris likes lots of water, and overwatering of it means LOTS of water if you compare to average houseplant. Moisture stress may as much as double the alkaloid content.
To get high leaf mass, your plant needs high amounts of water, light, and nutrients. Nutrients, on the other hand, have been shown to have a negative effect on the alkaloid content - adequate fertilization may in fact lower the total alkaloid content. And stressing decreases the leaf mass. So you must walk the fine line between these two. Make a growing program, divided in 4 to 8 parts. During certain parts you maximise the leaf mass. And during certain parts you maximise the alkaloid content.
Example:

Simon Sez grows Phalaris aquatica. 1st period goes almost entirely to germination, as the seeds dry out a bit, "Whatta dumb mistake," Simon thinks, as third of the seeds won't germinate anymore.
2nd and 3rd period Simon has dedicated for growth. Simon gives the plants nutrients; during 2nd period complete, well balanced N-P-K (nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium) and micronutrient (Zn,B,Cu, Fe, Mn, etc.) fertilizer, and during 3rd only natural nitrogen. Every now and then he snips the top off 'em.
4th period is about fasting - Simon gives plants no water.
During the 5th Simon begins to feel sorry for the plants and after giving them adequate, but not too much!, watering, lets them grow.
And at the beginning of the 6th period, Simon thinks that its time to chill out a bit, so he sneaks the plants into large fridge his friend has (after giving it a dose of nitrogen fertilization). Just for a night. Its always above 0 C, but below 6 C.
Last days the plants get to grow normally. Then Simon strips the leaves, and lets the plants do their own thing for a while, as he tries to put together the wheat grass juicer he got without any instructions. That would theoretically make 200% for the clipping, 25% for the 4th, 10-200% for the 6th. But in reality the increase in tryptamines cannot be calculated so easily. But lot anyhow. Simon smiles happily.
The period length is also important - alkaloid content rises steadily as the plant grows, and is highest at 30 to 50 days. Simon had 7 day periods =).
Fertilizers - problematic. Don't use good, rich soil - if the plants get enough of micronutrients, alkaloid content is diminished. Mix regular gradening soil with sand and rocks to get a good mix (for example 1/3rd of each). When the plant is young, ensure adequate nutrition with liquid fertilizers, then move to only nitrogen fertilization, and finally give only water (for example first quarter, second quarter and last half, resp.). This makes plants grow fast, big and finally tryptish. Phalaris can use fairly large amounts of fertilizers, but stick to the instructions of the manufacturer until you know what you are doing. Urine is an excellent excellent nitrogen fertilizer - add about half an desiliter (2 oz) per liter of water (1/5gallon?) - fully organic and very soluable.
Cloning - an easy way to get more plants. First pick your best plant - healthy, big and high in alkaloids. Wait till you harvest, and then cut the whole stem off, place it underwater, glass or a bucket does fine, cut in small pieces, add small amounts of seaweed(-extract) and wait couple of days. After that place pieces in pots, and keep humid. It might take as long as 3 weeks for first signs of life, but try to keep the soil relatively humid - not wet, humid. Excess water may attract molds and fungi. You can also take part of the rhizome (root) and do the same thing. Simply divide the rhizome and place the pieces in soil. Water with light seaweed-extract-solution. Wait. Leaves are of no use here, they will only rot away.
Harvesting the fruits of labor is very easy. Simply cut out the leaves. If you like you can leave one leaf/stem to speed up the regrowth. Remove parts of the stem above the leaf. Plant will continue growing for a long time. Repotting the plant or dividing the rhizomes often gives plant new vigour. Repot at least once a year.
Time of the day has no effect on the tryptamine content if you are growing indoors or in an greenhouse. Outside, morning harvest may rise alkaloid content.
If you are producing seeds - don't clip, have at least four of such plants, all from different sources, and of good strain. Let these grow, and when the seed production has started, place a clear bag over the flower. Bags made of loose nylon mesh are best. Plants produced from seed often have more energy than plants that have been cloned from a clone (and so-on). Produce seeds at least once in two years to ensure the vigour of your plants.

http://www.lycaeum.org/nepenthes/Pla...ris/DMTLU.html

16mg Bio-Assay
From Freddy:

16mg of the previously pictured goo was placed in a favorite dry bubbler, sandwiched between layers of old ganja ashes.

Heat was applied very gently and the contents inhaled in two hits, each hit held as long as possible. The beginning of the smoking process will be called T+00:00:00

T-00:00:30 Sent a text message to Phin and another good buddy saying "Testing a new extraction product. Wish me luck." It gives me peace of mind to know that one or the other of them will try to get in touch with me if I don't give an "all-clear" in 10 minutes, and will call the coast guard if they don't hear from me in 20

T+00:00:00 Smoking begins. Oh, the taste! That familiar, delicious, terrifying taste!

T+00:00:15 First hit inhaled. It is held for as long as possible. A slight...Buzzing?... is felt(heard) in the brain.

T+00:00:30 Second hit begins. Heart rate spikes, the beating of my heart is all I can focus on. It feels as though it is trying to break out of my chest. I am just scared, that is all.

T+00:01:00 Second hit exhaled. I settle down into a comfortable position and close my eyes.

T+00:01:30 I feel a wave of warmth flowing through my body, starting in my torso and gradually extending to my fingers and toes.

T+00:01:45 I hear something. It is not quite a sound, and not quite a hallucination. Sort of a "wha-wha-wha" type of sound...

T+00:02:00 Something is looking at me! I open my eyes, only to discover that I am alone. The fan (normally too fast to see clearly) is running exceptionally slow. I am confused and close my eyes.

T+00:02:10 The same Something seems to say, "Hey! Wait! Come Back! I/We had so much to show you! Why did you only peek around the corner?? We won't hurt you!" I do not 'hear' these words as much as 'feel' them...

T+00:2:30 I open my eyes again. The fan is running at normal speed. I can hear the faucet dripping 20 feet away through the closed door. I stand up.

T+00:02:45 I feel "floaty" and it is delicious. The woodgrain on the tiller is "dancing" and "flowing" for perhaps 5 seconds before it settles into a familiar pattern.

T+00:03:00 I am close enough to baseline to weigh anchor and head back to port. Looking forward to sleeping on Phin's couch on dry land tonight.

T+00:20:00 I am back to baseline in plenty of time to dock.

Interesting...

https://mycotopia.net/forums/botanicals/82666-phun-phineas-phalaris.html

That thread goes on a bit. Good to know the Nexus has solved the so called Gramine issue .

 

[phyllode]

From bluelight: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-59977-p-3.html

17-09-2007, 00:44
So far, of those actually working with brachystachys, every report I've read has been successful. There is also a huge difference between working with homegrown plants of known virtue and wild strains. The issue with seeds is the difficulty in controlling which plant pollinates since wild phalaris is everywhere.

There's also like 15 to 20 times more tryptamines n the PB being investigated and the phalaris previously investigated.
e1evene1even
17-09-2007, 05:10
Wow, 36 hours of ayahuasca? Taking two hours to come on? That sounds ridiculous! In my experience it hits quite strong within 15-25 minutes and lasts approximately 3-4 hours. It sounds like a massive overdose to me.

Recently my completely bare back yard had grass sod laid down and I could help think what a waste it was. It would be great if some rogue psychonaut started a grass company and started supplying large amounts of DMT containing grasses to the urban market. Imagine being able to cut your lawn (or someone else's), and make DMT!

I think the juicing idea also has some merit. The juicer I have seems to reduce plant matter of any type to a very small amount of concentrated bitter liquid, which I would assume contains most of the active alkaloids.

Let's get this thread back on track as an investigative thread where those of us who are interested in exploring this potentially interesting species may do so.

To those who seem not to have held back in voiceing their skepticism, I appreciate your concern, but, I'm a grown man and am fully capable of reading the available materials and making a decision reguarding where to invest my interests. Your belief or disbelief in the viability of this plant as an entheogen is irrelevent to the topic and adds only clutter and venom to the thread.

Brachystachys didn't invent Phalaris Brachystachys and really shouldn't be placed in the position of having to further justify his recommendation that others explore the plant . The grilling he's recieved and admirably (and patiently) defended against is unfair and I'm glad to see he's stepped out of that silly debate. Their is more than sufficient evidence, some of which is anecdotal, to justify further investigation by those who are interested and willing to do so.

I've enough MHRB to supply myself with effective skin treatment for decades yet I still find PB very interesting. Phalaris Brachystachys and Canariensis (a cultivar of brachystachys, I believe) are interesting not just because of their (debated) potency.

The very short time to maturity may make this plant an excellent candidate for breeding even more potent or pure strains.

The annual nature of the plant allows for multiple harvests and growth for seed.

As a grass, the home cultivator isn't faced with the task of seriously injuring his plants as might be the case with plants like Mimosa hostilis, Acacia Obtusifolia or Desmanthus species.

For groups of individuals of like mind interested in psychedelic spiritual ceremonies, PB may be able to eliminate much of the expense of aquiring sacrements as well as , and more importantly, helping to eliminate the paper trail and number of individuals privy to the groups activities.

Phalaris Brachystachys is also a great "lab" for learning about inheritence and basic testing for alkaloids.

I think it's important that we understand that we are a diverse group and as such our interests are also diverse. Some of us are primarily interested in a plant or a plant material purely as a means to an end and that's fine. Others aren't so focused on the end result (although it surely is still important) but rather enjoy the process and novelty of the process to reach that end.

Finally, in the spirit of harm reduction, these plants are underexplored, of unknown potency and potentially toxic. For the less motivated and experienced, Phalaris Brachystachys shouldn't be considered over mimosa as a route to DMT. No phalaris species should be considered as a safe route to ayahuasca without extraction or analysis.

Now, on to the mysteries of the sacred grass....

Phalaris brachystachys.

 

[rudder]

Gramine and other possibly toxic alkaloids easily migrate to the acqueous layer. Using phalaris as an ayahuasca analogue is not safe, you would be a guinea pig risking your health. There's no long history of phalaris oral use that we really know of, no study of potential toxicity of some of these alkaloids in humans, and phalaris varies a lot in alkaloid content. Just because a small number of people have done it without apparent damage does not mean that it is safe, it might be they are doing yet-unseen damage to themselves, or that they were lucky. Please do NOT ingest a crude phalaris brew.

Yes, this is probably not the best idea, but what NNDMT extraction would you recommend for this species? What do you think of this extraction?

1) grind phyllodes/small twigs in a coffee grinder or with mortar and pestle as fine as possible
2) soak overnight in mixture of ethanol/vodka/methylated spirits plus white vinegar and water
3) heat/boil liquid & plant material for approx 45 minutes..keep liquid..add fresh liquid and repeat X 2 (45 min boiling)
4) combine liquids and reduce volume by heating..at various stages here is when as much filtering as possible should be done..e.g. coffee filters (can be slow); reduce volume of liquid as much as possible, i.e until slightly thick..4B) defat x1 with NP solvent - optional
5) very slowly and carefully add casutic soda or pure ammonium until pH between 11-12.5
6) add equal amount of non polar solvent, and separate (optional wash with salty H20+NaOH)..evaporate slow
..all technical issues with emulsions etc are covered in nexus threads..

 

[nen888]

^..you are best to use d-limonine as a solvent..work by endlessness a few pages ago showed that (using his method there) it pulled the DMT but not the gramine..you probably also should defat..
..the toxicity of gramine is also discussed a few pages ago..it is not 'acutely' toxic, meaning unlikely to kill anyone even in large oral doses..read this thread carefully..

 

[Dorge]

Many attempts at Reed canary grass analog brews back in the day... Pure misery... Entheogenic? Yes.... A good experience that feels healthy even if it's uncomfortable... Oh Jesus no...
It was just horrible... Always horrible. Visionary... But horrible... The 5meodmt gave strobe light like effects, just nasty.

I think more people need to look at harvesting the bundle flower. The dept of the interior I beleive planted it all over the Planes of the united states as a grazing crop for cattle. There is a TON on old plants out there just waiting to get harvested. It yeilds lower then MHRB of coarse... But it's still the roots and simple extractions can be done. I talked to trout about it a bit back in the day. It was sold for a while, but it's been ignored because of the popularity and ease of MHRB... Much larger quantities of bundle flower are needed compared to MHRB, but it is according to trout rediculously abundant in the planes.


I wanna say that I believe in this communities ability to adapt and make amazing discoveries and technologies... Any adversity will only empower the process... In some ways I am gratful that MHRB is becoming more controlled, it forces our creative process.

 

[nen888]

..i think STRAIN is the key here..and perhaps season..

for the record, i have smoked a yellow oil extract of Phalaris aquatic var. 'Australia' a number of times..
i found it to be profound and light-filled, and slightly smoother than acacia extracts i had tried at the same time..
it was done A/B incl. defatting..

..also Jim de Korne, who i used to correspond with a little, was getting 'gnostic-level' experiences..
from Erowid:

DeKorne says he discovered that you could make a smokable extract [from Phalaris arundinacea var. Turkey Red]by accident, after leaving an extract intended for ayahuesque use out where the alcohol evaporated, leaving "a gummy tar" which he "on a sudden whim" decided to smoke. "I took one inhalation of this essence and found my mind immediately blasted into a cerebral hurricane of rapidly pulsing white light. Fortunately, I already knew what a DMT flash is like, so I was not totally taken by surprise."

His idea of extraction is this:
Pulverize the grass clippings
Add water, "enough... to make a pourable soup"
Acidify to pH 5 or so
(Optional) Simmer the acidified soup in a slow cooker overnight, not allowing the liquid to evaporate. ("It may take two or three such operations to get all of the alkaloids into solution" )
Strain the plant matter through cheesecloth, then through a paper coffee filter
Add 10-15% of the mass of the solution in a "defatting solvent" such as methylene chloride, ether, chloroform, or naptha. [Be extremely careful about the use of naptha]
Shake vigorously
The crap will go into the solvent, leaving the good stuff in the water.
Separate the water from the solvent.
Add a base to the aqueous solution in small increments until the pH gets to about 9 or 10. This converts the alkaloids into their free base.
Extract with 10% of the mass of the solution of an organic solvent four times, at one 24-hour and then three weekly intervals. The solvent layer will take on a darker tint, usually yellowish or reddish-brown. It will take almost a month to extract all of the alkaloids, and the solution should be shaken at least twice a day between extractions.
Evaporate the solvent off from the combined extract fractions. You now have the alkaloids.
He was smoking 50 mg of this goo at a shot.

As a footnote, he tried similar stuff with Arundo donax and got some really nasty reactions from whatever other crud was in the plant. I'm gonna cross this one off of my list.

exact ID and/or clones/cuttings of the right strain essential..

..which is not to discount your experience above Dorge..just want to point out that the most horrible smoked experiences (as well as some of the best) in my life were from Acacias..and no one, including me, is saying 'stay away!'.. but, i like Dorge that people are talking Desmanthus again..
.

the strains i would recommend are: Phalaris aquatica var. 'Australia'; Phalaris aquatica 'AQ1', Phalaris aquatica 'Big Medicine', Phalaris brachystachys (which needs selection) and, for 5meo, Phalaris arundinacea 'Turkey Red'.
.