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~Phalaris = The Way Of The Future~

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"TLC analysis results suggest the end product is really quite pure N,N-Dimethyltryptamine."

Yes but from what I have been recently told, the effects from 15mg of a purified extract from big medicine were far weaker than what 15mg of pure DMT from mimosa would produce..so what is going on there?
 
My 12mg (quite likely less due to carb and plant contams) experience was noticeably different than mimosa spice in the way it presented with the slow creeping onset as well. I can't rightly say I have any idea what is going on.

TLC isn't extremely precise, all I can say for sure from my own experimentation is that the testing indicates that there is DMT present in significant quantities in sunflower oil extractions of both big medicine and aq1 and no other compounds are present in significant enough quantities to show up on the TLC plate. When we get get lab analysis done on some extracts we may be able to draw further conclusions.
 
If Jaime is referring to mine and IH's bio-assay then just want to clarify a bit. It was a dose eyeballed of sticky residue between 10-15mg id say. I'm leaning towards 10mg to be honest and this was split between the both of us on a bit of mullien.

Jaime is correct, something seemed missing IME for sure. I.H. disagrees feeling we just didn't smoke enough. I felt dose size aside the amount of body high versus lack of any slight visual effects felt disproportionate. There was def something missing.

Now this needs also to be said. This residue came from the botched conversion in which we still have this dmt stuck in the lye solution and wont migrate into the nps for whatever reason.
So we don't even know what this residue WAS. It may be that the dmt stayed put and some other active went into the solvent. Ill say this there was 334 mg of converted fumerate in the lye solution and we used 150 ml of solvent to try to remove it and this tiny bit of residue is all that was left behind h=after the pull was evaped.
 
I will just go ahead and break down everything as I understand it so far just to make sure we are all on the same page. Please correct me if there are any errors.

We have LC-MS data that shows DMT to be present in a wild sample of Phalaris arundinacea picked in the fall in the BC area. We also have LC-MS data that shows DMT to be present in vendor purchased samples of P. arundinacea var. Big Medicine, P. arundinacea var. Yugo Red, and P. aquatica var. AQ1. We have conflicting data showing DMT and 5-MEO-DMT respectively present in different samples of Phalaris brachystachys.

We have solubility tests demonstrating that gramine is not soluble in naphtha or limonine at room temperature. We also have LC-MS analysis showing a room temp limo extraction of P. arundinacea var. Yugo Red yielded mostly DMT with only trace amounts of gramine.

We have a couple cases of extraction and positive bio-assay from P. arundinacea var. Big Medicine. It appears to have a rather low alkaloid content with the extractions yielding in the range of .01%-.05%, which is on par with what P. arundinacea alkaloid content is listed to be in the literature. As stated above TLC analysis indicates sunflower oil extraction yields DMT without pulling significant amounts of other alkaloids.

P. aquatica var. AQ1 is listed in the literature as containing up to 1% alkaloids and it has the cleanest alkaloid profile of the species tested with LC-MS. TLC testing seems to support the presence of significantly higher amounts of DMT in AQ1 than in Big Medicine lending support to the 1% claims in the literature. Once again, as stated above TLC analysis indicates sunflower oil extraction yields DMT without pulling significant amounts of other alkaloids.

TLC testing of vendor purchased P. arundinacea var. Turkey Red side by side with DMT and 5-MEO-DMT standards supports the presence of 5-MEO-DMT as stated in the literature.

That's everything I got off the top of my head, let me know if I missed anything or got anything wrong.
 
Awesome thank you Dreamer. Thats super helpful re-cap. It seems many people are shy to a 5-Meo/NN-dmt blend but honestly that sounds like it would be really nice to me.

AQ1 is definitely on my radar.
 
There is still one thing I don't understand...

from post #135 of this thread
endlessness said:
Here's the ratio of the significant active alkaloids (they can be compared between th different phalaris because it was same dissolution amounts):

AQ1:
DMT: HORDENINE: Possib 2MTHBC: MYSTERY CAFFEINE
14.6: 2.6: 1.1: 3.1

Big Medicine:
DMT: HORDENINE: GRAMINE: MYSTERY CAFFEINE
37.5: 13.3: 1: 44.7

Yugo red
DMT: HORDENINE: GRAMINE: MISTERY CAFFEINE
2.1: 90.3: 65.2: 9
Click to expand...

Clearly Big Medicine has more DMT than AQ1 in this analysis. This is contrary to both the literature and my subsequent TLC results from the same clones.

wassup widat?
 
Thats a good question bro because these results Endless posted were what IH and I were assuming was the case and why we are working with Big Med. After recent talks with Jaime and others I am really confused and being told Big Med is the lowest yielder out of all the promising grass's. Also that its alk profile isn't significantly better than other grass's such as AQ1. This in quite contrary to our reading and understanding from sources other than nexus.
:surprised
Im confused.
 
It may have been some methodology issues. Those were my first tests, since then I learned quite a bit. One of the possible issues is that I took a small amount of phalaris from each strain, but considering the alkaloids may not have been equally distributed throughout the plant, I may have gotten some part of the big medicine that was unusually high in alkaloids, as opposed to the average alkaloid content of a big amount. Or maybe indeed that phalaris sample dreamer sent me was indeed higher in DMT, who knows? Either way, sorry if I confused you guys in any way!

Feel free to ask me anything you want, and I´m also willing to do any more tests with gc/lc-ms as is necessary.

Ice House/oly mon, do you still have any sample from the stuff you extracted/smoked? Also, any chance you might do a TLC test on it , before we get it properly analysed?

Dreamer, did you get a big amount of phalaris, homogenize it (blend/cut small) and then take a small amount to TLC test, or did you just take a small amount and test it? Because if its the second case, it might be the apparent amounts with the TLC test are misleading, same as they might have been with my own tests.
 
Well I wouldn't call it a big amount, but yes I did homogenize the samples so they should have been pretty representative of everything in the plant.

I still have the samples ready to be sent off for analysis as well, hopefully another mass spec on the extracts will help sort things out. One thing I was considering is perhaps the samples got mixed up somehow? It's possible I may have accidentally mislabeled them or something.

I'm also still pondering what's up with the caffeine contam too, it's a pretty significant amount of some of those samples, which makes some kind of simple cross contam seem unlikely to me. Likewise the clones are from separate vendors so it most likely has to be something on my end, best guess I got is the soil, perhaps the fox farm soil I've been using has a lot of coffee grounds in it and the plant was able to absorb some caffeine from it or something.

So many questions, so little conclusions. Once again I will re-iterate the battle cry of the scientist, moar research needed! :p
 
A few other thoughts:

The samples end tested were when the clones were pretty well brand new from the vendor, basically it was young fresh new green growth and I only sent a gram of each grass. In my extractions I was using mostly mature grass that I had cut back when it started to grow large, a lot of both yellow dry dead material and fresh green material and also in larger (but still rather small) amounts, ie. 30g extractions of material of all sizes from all seasons vs the 1 gram of relatively fresh young material end had to work with.

It's likely this also plays a role in the different results.
 
@ Endless- hey brother well yes and no. We still have the original dmt from the 1st extraction but its suspended in the lye solution and won't go into the heptane. Its sitting in a mason jar with 100 ml solvent in it. If aggregated the cloud of substance we assume to be dmt is easily visible under the solvent in the lye solution. We have not yet tried heating it up though so we could try that.

Its a mystery WTF it wont go into the solvent. I showed the "jar of mystery" to Snozz when he was here and he too couldn't figure it out.

Its a shame because before we tried the conversion that went wrong, it visually looked like a great sample and smelled of floral dmt. This newest batch of fumerate looks quite strange. dark green in color but doesn't have some shiny crystals in it that reflect light.

@ dreamer- that's an interesting theory about the caffeine contamination which is really high and show throughout all the samples. I'm guessing it must be the soil as well. That or something on the testing side is the only thing I can think of why it would be so consistent.

One thing that may help is to have our grass tested. We aren't using fox farms but a big agricultural soil vendor. I doubt they put coffee grounds in their soil but maybe they do. Seems more like a hippie thing I could see fox farms doing rather than your local red neck farm supplier like we used. Encourage IH to send a sample of the grass in and describe how it should be packaged. IE dry, wet, live?
 
Also IH and I have this pdf from a person extracting from big med and i think AQ1 using a wheat grass juicer. He had a great method of getting rid of all the chlorophyll from the juice leaving just an orange liquid that he then extracted from and got clean whitish crystals. We are following his method next time.

Something is wrong with the 3 x 3 boils. The 2 batches came out very different in yield and appearance of end product. Its getting a bit frustrating to be honest. I really have wanted to work from the juice from the beginning. Working with this much plant matter is a big pain in the ass and then to only get a few hundred mgs has been a huge bummer. I really don't think 3 x 3 boils gets all that much out of the grass to be honest. And there is no way we could work with the grass itself. Not in these amounts.

Juice is the way to go and I think IH is on board with that.

Ill dig out the pdf later or just ask IH if you see him. You may know of it its a great pic tutorial.
 
the .pdf is posted by fourthreplay, and here it is on processing phalaris..

his extractions are made with brachy, but nevertheless his approach of extracting still applies for the other grass types. indeed its really great step to take the chlorophyl out before proceeding.

whats strange here in the pdf is that he states he got 5-meo out, and i thought brachy had the cleanest and highest nn- content.
 
I have said this before, but I would suggest to people maybe to not do that chlorophyll removal tek by fourthreplay..and then do it..and compare. His yields for brachys are way lower than all the literature suggests..and lower than other recent reports suggest. I think a lot of tryptamines are bound up in that chlorophyll, but that is only a guess.
 
and how did you get to that conclusion, im just interested why you think dmt is bound specifically to chlorophyll and not migrate in the acidic solution.

also, the ammount that he got out from his extractions is not the only thing which raised questions for me..

anyway, i hope i will start some brachy indoors soon so i can get some first hand experience on this.
 
I agree an electric wheatgrass juicer to make a nice phalaris juice from the fresh grass is gonna be the best way to process this stuff. As far as the 3x30 boils not getting it all from grass; I don't think that's the case, I'm pretty certain it's just the fact you are using P. arundinacea which is just generally low in alkaloid content. Big Medicine has a very clean DMT profile for an arund, but it's still an arund so it's unlikely you will ever break .05% alks with it even if you employ a bunch of stressing techniques and the like, it's just the nature of the species to have a low amount of alkaloids.

This begs the question of the 1% claims on AQ1. Standard aquatica is listed to be around around .1% DMT so I'd say one could safely guess full spectrum alk content between .1% and .3% or perhaps more. I'm not sure what could or would account for the aq1 variety being on the order of 10x higher in alkaloids than other aquatica, but that's what the literature says. We shall see...
 
As far as extraction I think we are making it out to be harder than it really is. One thing I'm pretty certain about is that a selective solvent like naphtha/heptane/hexane isn't very effective with grasses. I couldn't even begin to tell you why, that's a job for our chemists, but from my own personal experience and the reports of others I've come to the conclusion that such selective solvents just don't work for the grasses for some reason or other.

Theoretically any tek will get your alks out so long as you are using a correct solvent. Of course the results of a simple STB would be pretty dirty and not easily cleaned because of the issue with selective solvents, so it is recommended to use a tek that includes both an acid and base step with defats and washes for greatest purity.

Alternately, it seems that selective solvents could possibly be utilized to purify the product if one was to perform a zinc reduction on the alkaloids before making the pulls into the selective solvent.

We know that using the tested strains with either limonine or sunflower oil as solvent the end result is fairly pure DMT pretty well free of other alks like gramine and hordenine. It stands to reason that xylene and toulene would yield similar results. These could also be evaporated off allowing one to skip the salting and conversion process which seems to be the most troublesome part of the process with the other solvents.
 
It´s very hard to say what oly mon and IH got with the phalaris until we test it. Gramine can also crystallize as fumarates and smell similar to DMT, and probably so do a lot of other substances.

If it was DMT, it should migrate to the solvent, specially if warm. The other possibility are that DMT is not readilly available to the water and stayed in plant matter (pressure cooker or juicing might be ways to test this possibility). Or that there´s some n-oxide, but so far I dont think anybody reported it.

Side by sides would help telling a lot at this point. For example homogenize and divide in two, each with different solvent but equal amounts, or juicing vs normal A/b, or pressure cooker A/b vs normal A/B. And then save the samples and TLC test it at least, or we can also LC-MS it
 
Hey i`m sorry for replying so late still did not have the time for the scientific research,
but swim did once his Phalaris extraction got some crystals as result. Problem was he had no clue how DMT actually smells and looks like in real. So he did now a MHRB extraction with Cybs tek and had nice results.
The stuff SWIM extraced from Phalaris smells looks and feels like 100% dmt like. Swim is now crazy for that smell and loves it.
SWIM will do a bioassay very soon with a small dose considering 5-MEO might be in the extract.

SWIM is very happy he seemed to found a reliable DMT source in abundance. Considering the low dry matter it seemed also like a good yield.

But which color does Gramine give with a Marquis test?
 
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