Plant based Anti-depressants

[The Day Tripper]

Ive been using turmeric & black pepper daily for a few weeks now, and noticed positive improvements in coping with depression. IIRC it has maoi properties, which might be mediating the affects. Its also a nice gentle stimulant that has allowed me to cut back my caffeine usage considerably.

Kratom in low doses can help as well, but i wont advocate using it long term, or every day. Though i did try just that (everyday microdosing of ~30mg 30x full spectrum extract) this summer for a few weeks. It worked rather well, up until it turned into recreational usage, and it lost its efficacy at helping with depression, and after a few weeks of abuse i felt pretty terrible & depressed.

I think one thing i learned this summer, for me personally at least, is a proper diet, regular exercise, and not tripping as frequently as i had been is very important. Psychedelics can help, but like kratom in a way, for me, it just turned into self medicating away the symptoms, and abuse. though to each his own.

Lemon balm tea helped as well, you just have to be careful, imho it numbed the emotional pain being a gabergic (though one of the safest gabergics imho). Sedatives never really helped in the long run ime, i think it just masked the symptoms and then lost efficacy at doing that. Lord knows the damage i could have done if i used benzos or alcohol/potent physically addictive gabergics like that.

Since winters rolled in, i started vitamin d 4000iu daily with a multi vitamin and ~1g each of ground turmeric/pepper on my eggs every day, and am being kept very busy with training at work for an assistant dept manager position. I think enjoying my job, compared to loathing the dept i transferred from really has helped. Keeping busy doing things you enjoy is wonderful as far as depression imho. The supplements help, but i think that was the important factor in makings some progress as far as my depression.

Finally, mega doses of magnesium citrate (generic natural calm) can really help get you out of a funky mood. It doesn't do much if i use i daily, but as necessary its fairly effective i prob do this 2-4 a month @ about a gram of magnesium (not including the citric acid its bonded to). Could possibly have something to do with nmda, and it being a slight dissociative. Cats claw can offer something like this as well ime.

Like how ketamine can offer relief from depression, though like mdma, i don't think you should try that unless working with a professional. Abuse of those two from self medication can be disastrous for depression.

Kanna sounds interesting, especially considering its PDE4 inhibition properties as well as being a ssri. Both have been postulated to help w/ depression. I used it a few times as i heard it snergized well with cnnabis, but never for depression. Might have to give it another go someday.

One i forgot to mention was harmalas from rue. In low doses it helps, but for me it induced anxiety on a consistent basis when taken @30mg daily. If it wasnt for that i't would be much more useful for my depression.

 

[obliguhl]

A good thread with a lot of helpful information. Still, i would like to encourage you to go a bit more into detail. There are tons of plants out there that have *some* anti-depressant effects but also have sideeffects or are simply too weak for a real depression. I believe that some of these plants do help to better your mood, but do they really help someone who has trouble unloading the dishwasher because everything feels so confusing, not worth it etc ?

Cacao Beans
..were mood elevating for me and a bit anti-depressant. I think they're anti-depressant because the good mood motivates you somehow to do more things. Unfortunatly, i've been getting weird sideeffects now.

Caapi microdose
I've started this several times. It feels a bit anti-depressant for me, a bit mood elevating, a bit anxiolytic and a bit psychedelic - but makes me feel dizzy and tired at times. Also not strong enough. But a good allrounder.

Ayahuasca brews
Anti-depressant effect for around a weeks or so, if the trip was good. The same is true for many psychedelics.

Kanna
Improves ones mood, but makes one also feel "high" in a strange way.

Kava
Scientific Studies:

Sarris, J., et al. "The Kava Anxiety Depression Spectrum Study (KADSS): a randomized, placebo-controlled crossover trial using an aqueous extract of Piper methysticum." Psychopharmacology 205.3 (2009): 399-407.

Pooled analyses also revealed highly significant relative reductions in Beck Anxiety Inventory and Montgomery–Asberg Depression Rating Scale scores.

My experience: Intensely anxiolytic but not anti-depressant. Ernst, Edzard (see below) writes in his review that there is only evidence for anxiolytic effects of kava. I would speculate that antidepressive effects are only measurable if the patients depression is strongly linked to his anxiety.

Passionflower
Makes me feel tired.

Blue Lotus
Produces a uncomfortable high for me.

Best anti-depressant effects were noticed with ketamine, but the aftereffects were horrible. I would like to learn more about salvia dosage.

Other interesting papers:

Ernst, Edzard. "Herbal remedies for depression and anxiety." Advances in Psychiatric Treatment 13.4 (2007): 312-316.

A systematic review of the published literature revealed trial data for Ginkgo biloba, Lavandula angustifolia, Hypericum perforatum, Valeriana officinalis, Crataegus oxyacantha, Eschscholzia californica, Matricaria recutita, Melissa officinalis, Passiflora incarnate and Piper methysticum. Only two of these herbal remedies are supported by sound evidence: Hypericum perforatum (St John’s wort) for mild to moderate depression and Piper methysticum (kava) for anxiety.

Jorm, Anthony F., et al. "Effectiveness of complementary and self-help treatments for depression." Medical Journal of Australia 176.10 (2002): S84.

The treatments with the best evidence of effectiveness are St John's wort, exercise, bibliotherapy involving cognitive behaviour therapy and light therapy (for winter depression). There is some limited evidence to support the effectiveness of acupuncture, light therapy (for non-seasonal depression), massage therapy, negative air ionisation (for winter depression), relaxation therapy, S-adenosylmethionine, folate and yoga breathing exercises.

 

[smoalker]

I find Kanna to be a very effective anti-depressant that starts to work nicely after 1-2 days of dosing daily.
Sublingual is best I find as oral gives me some nausea , smoking does not last long enough and snorting plant material is incredibly uncomfortable.
It is also very cheap and very potent.
I have also used iboga for depression by dosing some relatively small (sub gram) doses every few days sublingually ( I dont know if ibogaine is absorbed sublingually but thats just how I did it) and it was very effective for about two months but then the effects began to diminish and I felt I was using iboga improperly so I stopped.
The only side effect I noticed during this period was difficulty sleeping.
Cannabis has heavenly anti-depressant effects that last up to two days for me so Im just throwing that out there. I find weed a huge help when I get into periods of feeling really down.
All in all I would recommend Kanna the most for long term use with basically no unwanted side effects.
Best of luck

 

[jamie]

passiflora is probly the best thing for anxiety I have come across..I dunno about anti depressant though. I dont really have any problems having to do with depression at all..just sometimes if I feel sort of restless or strung out passiflora works every time to make me feel comfortable and relaxed and to sleep.

 

[obliguhl]

to make this thread more useful, i propose adding the following information to your entries:

- How strong were the anti-depressant effects?
- Were the effects felt only mood lifting or was apathy improved?
- Are there any studies proving anti-depressant effects ?
- What about tolerance?

There are a ton of plants who are somehow "anti-depressant" but humanity is still waiting for the holy grail of anti-depressants. Most plant remedies are more than weak, unfortunatly. Still, having a quality list of worthwhile plants to try, is certainly helpful and would help stop suicides, im sure. Even though it might be hard in quite a few cases to restore a real sense of "living". The inflationary use of the term "depression" is yet another problem because many people do not know how strong a plant remedy has to be in order to be considered worthwhile by people who are really depressed and do not just suffer from mood swings or ocassional sadness. I'm talking about people who can barely function, who have trouble getting out of bed, out of the house...who see no future, no purpose, no sense of living...who are basicaly vegetating.

 

[arcanum]

May have been briefly mentioned before, but Kratom in the isolate enhanced " Maeng da Thai" variety displays good properties that seem to make it an effective A.D. It definitely has an apathy improving effect, especially when taken around breakfast time. Clearly a stimulant, and a good one at that. Tolerance does develop to the minor euphoric effects, but not the purely stimulant properties , rather like coffee in that respect , this is of course based on my own expereinces of 4 months continual use and may not apply to others.. Withdrawal effects were also mild and transient. No dose escalation on my part either.

I find it's a great addition to the plant based A.D.'s, but sadly legislators in many countries are moving in to have it banned. I wonder if the "Big Pharma" lobbies have anything to do with it? It simply wouldn't be tolerable for them to have a blockbuster, non patentable natural A.D. swamping "their " very lucrative anti-depressant mkt especially if it doubled up as an effective pain killer. There was talk ( Kratom society website) that the maker of the "Blue Pill" was developing a drug based on the 7 Hydroxy Mitraginine mollecule ( Kratom!)

 

[Michal_R]

I´ve also been having some interesting results with low doses of Kratom. I usually dose at 1-2g (not daily though), not finding it necessary to dose more. With 3g and up, I tend to experience the less pleasant opiate side effects (excessive sweating, itching, constipation).

Arcanum: what has been your daily dose of Kratom, may I ask?

 

[arcanum]

Also 2gr per dose of the enhanced product, with a maximum of 2 doses per day. What's interesting about Kratom is the range of effects different types produce. As I mentioned the "Maeng Da Thai" sort is better in the morning as it's stimulating, great for physical endurance at work. The " Maly Kratom" I only use in the evening, it has typical opiate-like effects, and this is the one I'd avoid using on a nightly basis.

My Kratom days are numbered anyhow, as it's recently been classified as a prohibited substance in my country, and I don't fancy getting busted for what is essentialy a herbal tea. Crazy world we live in.

 

[nen888]

..thanks all for moving this thread along..

arcarnum..interesting kratom report..my only experience i found it a little unsettling, but that was a one off..


.

 

[jamie]

"There are a ton of plants who are somehow "anti-depressant" but humanity is still waiting for the holy grail of anti-depressants"

I tend to think humanity is always looking for the wholy grail of everything, so they can simply consume more..with very little work on their part. This approach to depression really does sound typical of the western approach. If there is any kind of holy grail in this reguard it is going to be some kind of holistic approach to the situation..not a simple quick fix for everyone to run out and consume.

I think even this sort of western approach might be a symptom, or even part of the cause of the depression that seems to be pretty widepread in our culture. I just personally feel like I am always observing people acting out their own problems over and over again..as if we collectivly are a species gone so insane that every reaction is just another symptom of that insanity.

I think the planet has already provided ample medicines..it is just that in the west we consume far more than we do other things..and simple consumption will never adress the root of the issue. It is obvious that as a culture we have not learned to get ur heads out of our asses just yet, and there is no structure set in place for people to work with much of anything..there is ample spportunity to consume..but there is nothing about this paradigm for us to work with..and without the work we are only left with another commodity to consume until we are agan dissatisfied.

I have no doubt that there is a very real neurochemical aspect to depression..mind/body/spirit all flow though one another..but if you only attempt to treat one of these things I dont think there will be much balace and so any results will only be temporary. A system that treats this disease on all levels..neurochemical, psychological and "spiritual" is what we as a culture require IMO..and I think so many ancient traditions already have these systems in place..we just need something like that that we can adapt for our culture.

 

[Michal_R]

That´s a very good point, Jamie.
Thanks

 

[obliguhl]

Jamie, i believe you're making a good point and what you say is most certainly true. But the thing with depression is: You CAN'T do all the things you'd have to do to fight it - because you are depressed. That's what makes it so vicious. Depression comes with a great sense of apathy, lethargy, demotivation .. which prevents you from taking the steps necessary to put your life back together. This is why anti-depressants are not a quick fix to feed into typical western mentality, but a necessity to get you moving.

 

[nen888]

..hey, missed smoalker's kanna comments..thanks for that..

jamie..i also think you make a valid point..

depression, imo, is as much related to lifestyle, social status, health, diet etc..as simply an isolated 'chemical imbalance'..all these factors affect eachother..
the different triggers for depression may have different sources, and different plants will work for some better than others..

..so called 'depression' has been on the rise in the modern world in the past 50-100 years..
i honestly think many of the constraints of post-industrial life are depressing unto themselves..
plants, whether subtly or entheogenically, allow a kind of intervention into the generic diet (in a few senses) of the manufactured world..

jamie wrote:

A system that treats this disease on all levels..neurochemical, psychological and "spiritual" is what we as a culture require IMO..and I think so many ancient traditions already have these systems in place..we just need something like that that we can adapt for our culture.

..agreed..i think if 'ancient traditions' or 'tribal peoples' offered anything a lot more strongly than our typical present day society, it was a sense of belonging..and a sense of purpose beyond the individual..

..there is no general consensus on the causes or treatments of the blanket term 'depression'..
but if any of these plants help individuals it is good for us to gather the data..

obliguhi wrote:

to make this thread more useful, i propose adding the following information to your entries:

- How strong were the anti-depressant effects?
- Were the effects felt only mood lifting or was apathy improved?
- Are there any studies proving anti-depressant effects ?
- What about tolerance?

..good idea thanks ob;iguhi..

thanks all contributors..

 

[obliguhl]

nen, i started editing my original post Plant based Anti-depressants - Health and Lifestyle - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus to include more info. Not much there yet, but more will hopefully follow.

 

[Rati]

MERGED

Hello Nexus,
I was wondering if any of you could suggest a natural alternative to antidepressants? Unfortunately times have been tough for me the last little while. I have struggled with depression since I was a child and the only solution offered to me has been prescription medication (which I personally do not wish to use pharmaceuticals) Today it came to my attention that many different solutions for this issue may be available. I plan to do some research online but I would also like some of your input. Thank you so much for taking the time to ready this. I appreciate any and all advice you may have.

Also I would like to add that I have been able to manage my anxiety through breathing exercises and have noticed a tremendous difference!

 

[Creo]

St John's Wort is commonly used as an antidepressant in Europe.

Hypericum perforatum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A study published in 2005 reached the conclusion that St John's Wort was significantly more effective than Prozac for treating major depression:

A Double-blind, randomized trial of St John's wort, fluoxetine, and placebo in major depressive disorder - PubMed

St John's wort was significantly more effective than fluoxetine and showed a trend toward superiority over placebo. A (25%) smaller than planned sample size is likely to account for the lack of statistical significance for the advantage (indicating a moderate effect size, d = 0.45) of St John's...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

One thing to be aware of is that combining St John's Wort with other drugs (including most psychedelics) can lead to serotonin syndrome.

 

[The Day Tripper]

Welcome to the nexus, here's a very informative thread you can find by using the search function for anti-depressants. There's a lot of good advice about various plant derived anti-depressants in that thread, also there's other threads you can find using the search function.

Plant based Anti-depressants

If you have already read those, do you have any specific questions about the alternatives presented in those threads?

If not you may want to run through them before asking for advice/starting a new thread. It will definitely show you are cultivating the right attitude towards a promotion.

Good luck, and once again, welcome to the nexus :thumb_up:

 

[shanedudddy2]

Is DMT considered a natural alternative? heh
Because I always find it to improve my mood and mental outlook.
*Shakes magic 8-ball*
The future looks....awesome

 

[MagicGing]

Also eating a healthy diet and getting regular excercise helps (maybe yoga?)

As for the diet, i would recommend a organic whole foods plant based diet. For instance, macadamia nuts have been proven to be a more effective antidepressant than prozac, i think in part due to the large amount of magnesium. Also i know the body generally spends alot of energy on digesting meat.
But dont forget about the b12! Its only found in meat, dairy, and eggs. Or supplements
Forks over knives is a great educational and very convincing movie that talks about this diet. I highly recommend it!

Hope this helps. I think alot of it has to do with the outlook.



Edit: i have seen a few scholarly articles on google (i will link later) that say ayahuasca, with the right intentions and respect, has completley changed people that were very depressed in 10 days or less! These people had tryed using pharmaceuticals, yoga, etc but to no avail. Aya with respect, healthy diet and excerscise sounds perfect to me
However i do feel like a hippocrite for posting this:surprised

 

[MagicGing]

Found the scientific article for ayahuasca and depression

http://www.neip.info/upd_blob/0000/996.pdf

Also could you elaborate on the breathing excersises you do that helps?