Progress and Collapse

[Cosmic Spore]

Excellent video on American Issues.



click me.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

:thumb_dow

The language presented in this video is politricks at its finest.

Casting the outcome of the past two weeks as a "victory" is nothing short of absurd.

A victory for who?

For the American populace, when well over two-thirds of them want a single-payer healthcare system, not mandatory insurance?

For the American taxpayers, who just saw $24 billion in GDP disappear due to manufactured crisis?

For the millions of American citizens who rely on government-funded programs to secure food, clothes, and shelter?

I think not.

The caller at 8:00 has some valid points...and Mr. Green rejects any notion of race or class factoring into American inequalities. Wut? :?:

He then flips the caller's points...rather than giving an answer, he uses it as a soapbox for "Come join the mighty Progressive movement...standing here for all America!" AND, even when he offers that empty rhetoric, the best he can put forth is that one day, progressive actions will let you "be a part of our successful economy" Give me a break :roll:

I was gonna comment on more of this video, but I honestly can't stomach it.

 

[Cosmic Spore]

I noticed that you did not state anything positive about it, and did not mention if you support the stated goals of his organization, or policies they hope to achieve, nor did you offer any constructive criticism.

The language presented in this video is politricks at its finest.

I disagree. I am not tricked, and I am not tricking anyone. Adam is clearly not a die hard supporter of any side- rather talks like an Independent Progressive; this is clearly an economic populist message; this is a fine example of the beliefs and philosophies of the progressives, who's ideas get much less air time than conservative ideas; it also does a good job destroying the myths perpetuated by the corporatized media.

Casting the outcome of the past two weeks as a "victory" is nothing short of absurd.

A victory for who? ... For the American taxpayers, who just saw $24 billion in GDP disappear due to manufactured crisis?

For the millions of American citizens who rely on government-funded programs to secure food, clothes, and shelter?

I think not.

I also think this was no victory for the American people; he specifically said that keeping the sequester cuts was not a victory. However, there was basically a capitulation by John Boehner to ignore the (artificial) Hastert Rule & pay the gov't bills already incurred (which he could/should've done 2 weeks earlier). It can be viewed as a victory in that they were not forced to cut social programs in order to reopen the government; the decline in the Tea party poll numbers is a victory for some Americans hoping those legislators are not reelected. ... I heard no Progressives saying "Shut down the government", however, I have evidence that there was a plan 3 years ahead of time (by some conservatives) to shut down the government... the group who caused $24 billion in GDP disappear has suffered a huge drop in their poll numbers, and this may allow more progressive legislators a chance at victory; if those who want to help the wealthy at the expense of the American people are not voted out of office- we will never have any victories for the people.

The caller at 8:00 has some valid points...and Mr. Green rejects any notion of race or class factoring into American inequalities. Wut? :?:

Not so; Mr. Green did not "reject any notion of race or class factoring into American inequalities." However he did refuse to answer a question/comment about Obama's neglect of the policies harmful to African Americans, and instead didn't want to comment about race- an issue that can be unnecessarily divisive, and he responded in a generalized fashion that deals with how many Americans are left out of the current model (see charts below & note income isn't = wealth).

"Let me hit what I think is actually your core issue, which is the struggling of everyday people in our economy; I don't think its 1 race or another necessarily- I think its everybody".

Honestly I was wanting feedback regarding the philosophy behind the video like: cut tax breaks for large, profitable corporations rather than cutting social programs. (25% large American corporations pay no taxes, and some get payed by taxpayers, while setting record profits).

Quite frankly you did not have time to watch the entire video before responding- which of course also required time and thought.

:thumb_dow ... I was gonna comment on more of this video, but I honestly can't stomach it.

:shock::!::?: *Humble Spore directs SnozzleBerry (Mod) to the Attitude Page

"Diversity, constructive criticism and differing opinions are welcome. Nobody has to unquestioningly agree with everything in this community. Nevertheless, we do not want a confrontational attitude, members that are constantly antagonistic, that turn arguments into fights and worsen the atmosphere. We don't appreciate dramas or excessive sarcastic posting. If one is not happy with a discussion, respectfully state why or don't post at all...please do not ... disrespectfully disregard other world views."

In total, that response was quite unbecoming of a mod such as yourself, IMHO.

 

[Cosmic Spore]

I still think its a good video, and that we would be better served if more people were open to the economic populist message of those in the Progressive movement.

* Any other responses, opinions; any constructive criticisms (in light of my response)?

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I did not give any explicit constructive criticism of his position (and instead simply commented on a few of his points) because I have enumerated it in countless other threads and did not wish to beat a dead horse. My comments in this thread are completely in-line with the critiques I have made in numerous other threads.

I can elaborate in pictures, too

Economic populism = fail

Why, you ask?

Because:

and

Voting for new rulers (progressive or otherwise) = fail

Why, you ask?

Because:

and

and

and

and

In short, progressives are part of the problem. A different part than conservatives or liberals, but still very much a piece of the repressive state apparatus that is intent on making sure that, at best, we are all cogs in the global industrial economy. Capitalism can't be reformed, industrial civilization can't be reformed; both are inherently destructive and unsustainable. In the most positive light, reformists are engaged in a Sisyphean task. As such, :thumb_dow

If you found my first post offensive, antagonistic, or upsetting, I'm sorry, that was not my intention. My intent was only to vehemently disagree with the sentiments articulated in the video you posted.

 

[Chadaev]

In short, progressives are part of the problem. A different part than conservatives or liberals, but still very much a piece of the repressive state apparatus that is intent on making sure that, at best, we are all cogs in the global industrial economy. Capitalism can't be reformed, industrial civilization can't be reformed; both are inherently destructive and unsustainable. In the most positive light, reformists are engaged in a Sisyphean task. As such, :thumb_dow

Yup.

If you found my first post offensive, antagonistic, or upsetting, I'm sorry, that was not my intention. My intent was only to vehemently disagree with the sentiments articulated in the video you posted.

I am somewhat amused by the sensitivity sometimes shown on the Nexus to robust argument. Lots of people run from it, as if it were a bad thing. Or as if mortal injury against one's person, as distinct from one's ideas, were intended. A rather Anglo-Saxon reaction, me thinks, which takes itself as 'just how it's done, ol' sport'.

 

[Chadaev]

And by Yup I mean Yep. But a smiley face after that diagnosis doesn't really seem appropriate...

 

[Cosmic Spore]

If you found my first post offensive, antagonistic, or upsetting, I'm sorry, that was not my intention. My intent was only to vehemently disagree with the sentiments articulated in the video you posted.

I am somewhat amused by the sensitivity sometimes shown on the Nexus to robust argument. Lots of people run from it, as if it were a bad thing.

Chadaev, I am not sensitive to a robust argument, and I don't run from discussions (Post #2 just seemed out of the ordinary: to receive a fully negative response, lacking in constructive criticism- before enough time had gone by to listen to what I had posted, and without voicing either support or reasonable criticism of the points made in the video [other than later, post #5, "down with capitalism"- which I don't disagree with]...).

I believe there are many problems with society, the system, and global capitalism- however, attempting positive change is :thumb_up: not :thumb_dow. Sure, it can be argued well that we should get rid of capitalism completely, but most Americans don't voice support for that; I think attempting improvements is better than staying the way things are.

If people don't join the effort to improve things at all, we cannot be surprised to find things keep getting worse; It does make a difference who holds power and what those people believe; we need more people who look out for us to be in position to have the capacity to help us, as well as the will to do so.

Feel free to comment on public policy goals that are listed in the 44 min. video- like investing in jobs & education- rather than wars and tax giveaways to the wealthy & large profitable corporations; also the goal of expanding Social Security by doing: "Scrap the Cap".

SnozzleBerry, I like those pictures; apologies if I came across with an attitude.

 

[Chadaev]

No worries, Cosmic Spore, my comments were not especially directed at you. I just took the opportunity to sound off. And I suppose the quality of the Nexus as compared to so many others on the net is testimony to the wisdom of erring on the side of politeness.

As for trying to make things better: yes, it's an old chestnut. Definitely all of us that can do something should try. But trying to expose the nature of false debates and false assumptions is also a form of activism. I'm not prepared to keep my trap shut about what I think is really going down just so as not to disturb my allies in particular struggles. To take one example: many people who mobilise around climate change don't want to hear about the relentless destruction of biodiversity and habitat by capitalist growth economics and urban megalopolis living. What's the point in saying that, they think, since it can't be changed. While all along, the ecological rug is being ripped out from underneath everything, the corporations included. So the point is it WILL change; just not how we might want to hope it will change.

Much environmental activism is quite consciously running about saying we have to act before it's too late, while not actually telling the truth. Namely that it already IS too late. Too late to stop runnaway climate change. Civilisation as we know it is going down. The timetable? Beats me.

How can I be sure? It's the way I call it. I may be wrong. But my ignorance and uncertainty is partly a function of the lack of serious debate. We need people, lots of intelligent people, to call it how they see it. Then we might finally create a climate of opinion where sufficient numbers of people are prepared not simply for 'resistance', but for the militant take down of the mega-corporations and their stooges, the real and ultimate earth killers.

It can't be said loudly and frequently enough: Obama and the cliques he represents (and their counterparts in Russia, China, etc), are literally killing the planet. Destruction to dwarf Hitler and Stalin.

But 'reasonable progressives' don't want to say anything like this. So in the name of trying to improve the system they join the lemming crush, blindfolds stappled on.

 

[Cosmic Spore]

As for trying to make things better: yes, it's an old chestnut. Definitely all of us that can do something should try. But trying to expose the nature of false debates and false assumptions is also a form of activism. I'm not prepared to keep my trap shut about what I think is really going down just so as not to disturb my allies in particular struggles. To take one example: many people who mobilise around climate change don't want to hear about the relentless destruction of biodiversity and habitat by capitalist growth economics and urban megalopolis living. What's the point in saying that, they think, since it can't be changed. While all along, the ecological rug is being ripped out from underneath everything, the corporations included. So the point is it WILL change; just not how we might want to hope it will change.

Much environmental activism is quite consciously running about saying we have to act before it's too late, while not actually telling the truth. Namely that it already IS too late. Too late to stop runnaway climate change. Civilisation as we know it is going down. The timetable? Beats me.

How can I be sure? It's the way I call it. I may be wrong. But my ignorance and uncertainty is partly a function of the lack of serious debate. We need people, lots of intelligent people, to call it how they see it. Then we might finally create a climate of opinion where sufficient numbers of people are prepared not simply for 'resistance', but for the militant take down of the mega-corporations and their stooges, the real and ultimate earth killers.

It can't be said loudly and frequently enough: Obama and the cliques he represents (and their counterparts in Russia, China, etc), are literally killing the planet... But 'reasonable progressives' don't want to say anything like this. So in the name of trying to improve the system they join the lemming crush, blindfolds stappled on.

While I think the timetable and degree of catastrophe will vary depending on how society reacts to them; though it may be too late, I view the timetable as our generation down to our grandchildren's generation (I think everyone will know the jig is up by that point at the latest).

Chris Hedges - "The Myth of Human Progress and the Collapse of Complex Societies"
[YOUTUBE]

He explicitly mentions the overthrow of this fascist paradigm [the corporate plutocracy], and I thought it was a good lecture, though I believe the best way would be to Robin Hood the billionaire plutocrats and use that $ for good paying ethical jobs & alternate energy.

theintercept.org and Democracy Now! don't seem to be oblivious.
Cointelpro, widespread spying, and Parallel Construction are things I'm also concerned about.

Glenn Greenwald - With Liberty and Justice for some.
[YOUTUBE]

peace & love.