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Psychedelic drugs and addiction.

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Opiyum

Opiyum

Rising Star
So I wanted to share with all of you a discussion I had today at out patient in group therapy. If you've read my intro you know that I have been using drugs recreationally for the last fifteen years and have been addicted to opiates the last ten, shooting heroin for the last 7 years. Addiction is the greatest and most difficult challenge I've ever faced and most likely will ever face.

So a question was posed to us yesterday. Write a detailed description of your understanding of God and how you allow God to work in your life.
Today I shared my response. I won't get into to much detail but for the first time since being in treatment (went to detox the end of may, was in inpatient till mid July and have been in outpatient since) I decided to share my views on psychedelic drugs and how they have provided me with the only understanding of spirituality I have ever had. I talked about the risk involved with their use is negligible when compared to the reward and the risk can greatly be reduced when used responsibly in the proper set and setting and when one has educated themselves. I admitted that when I was young and took certain compounds that I knew nothing about them and perhaps was not in the safest of settings but nevertheless had good experiences and have since learned a great deal about these compounds and practice harm reduction in every sense. I was asked by my therapist why I can't use them today and rather than saying because I'm an addict and one is too many and a thousand never enough I said what I feel which is that psychedelics don't fit into the model of addiction. I talked about how the experience varies from person to person and that it isn't predictable in the way that cocaine and heroin and other such drugs are. I brought up the fact that probation offices and treatment centers don't even test for such chemicals( other than MDMA and a few others that are methamphetamines) I mentioned how you rarely (I have never) see someone in the rooms of NA who has ruined there life only because of psychedelics.
I also talked about how being an addict is what makes me so sure that these drugs are not addictive. I know what the obsessive and compulsive voice in my head sounds like. I know what it feels like when I start convincing myself that I can use opiates or cocaine or alcohol and it wont hurt me and no one will know. It's my familiarity with that voice that makes it so obvious when it is absent.
More than just these justifications I talked about what they have taught me and how grateful I am for those things. I talked about desire to know more. To better understand the world through these drugs. I talked about my interest in Buddhism and mentioned that I Was open to other pathways to elevate ones consciousness and gain spiritual enlightenment.

I'm curious to hear from both addicts and non-addicts what there answer to the question above is and how psychedelic drugs have influenced that and what your opinion is towards the idea that psychedelic drugs are addictive.

I will get into the responses I received later on if it is prudent to do so.
 
I used to smoke weed like a mad man, I wouldnt say addicted, but if I wasnt smoking I was thinking about smoking.... Im sure a drug councelor would say I was addicted. In any case, since my first use with DMT, I smoke maybe 1/5 of the amount I used to. I just don't have that same urge to smoke like I used to. I'm now passed the bowl and more often than not say 'Thanks but no thanks'.... I smoke spice maybe once or twice a week now. Id prefer meditation to weed now honestly......

But im curious what your fellow patients and councelors had to say about your stance on psychadelics. And if you still take psychadelics have you told them?
 
I'm very curious about the response from the group and the therapist! Usually one can expect a very sad reaction, something in the style of the ordinary anti-all-drugs-propaganda, but I really hope you've got another response. An answer more focused on listening to your story and views and wanting to understand, a curious and open-minded human one.

My views are pretty simple. I sort drugs, mind-altering substances, after two very different qualities. I categorize them after two extreme properties, to the left the pure recreational satisfaction and to the right the pure non-recreational helpful, spiritual and educating use. Drugs like opioids are at the very far left of my scale, while DMT is on the very right. Psychedelics in general are very right-orientated (exactly where I put them is based purely on my subjective experiences), and cannabis is somewhere in the middle. Cannabis make you feel pretty good about all times you smoke, which makes it a candidate for mental addiction and the left wing, but at the same time I've resolved, learned and made many creative things under the influence, so it's a tough one.

Anyway. Back to the topic. My views on opioids are, like I said, of the very addictive kind. These drugs make you feel REALLY good in a REALLY easy way (just ingest to numb pain) but they haven't really got any of the deep qualities. Psychedelics on the other hand are like the opposite. These drugs open your mind and let you see yourself, your life and other people and objects in a objective state of mind I really aren't able to reach in any other way. By using these psychoactives I've resolved MANY of my own personal problems and I've evolved tremendously with the aid of them.

So, back to the addiction property. Mental addiction in short comes from fun, from satisfaction, from recreational use. Mental addiction is at risk when using drugs at the left end of the scale. Physical addiction is a property from the interaction between the drug and the body, it's purely physical but also a property I find in the left-winged drugs. Psychedelics are so entirely different! These substances make you see stuff, they can show you many wonderful things, but also, non-favorable things.

I've had both good and bad experiences with them, but in the end, EVERY SINGLE ONE of my experiences have taught me something. The bad ones can be just as good as the good ones, when it comes to teachings. The physical addiction is generally non-existing. The only place I can find a potential danger is when it comes to the mental part. I often feel pretty strong euphoric feelings at times with psychedelics. BUT, for some reason, this DOES NOT motivate me to take them when I feel low.

Opioids on the other hand, do. I know that if I take some I will immediately feel awesome and the pain is in another galaxy for a while. If I take DMT when I feel low on the other hand, the elves will probably smack my fingers and show me that I'm poisoning myself with the opioids. They (for me) seem to be able to act in an ANTI-ADDICTIVE way.

Anyone who's following me and agreeing/disagreeing with my views and opinions? :?:
 
I actually got a pretty good response. One person said that I was just rationalizing and justifying another way to get high. He projected his own experiences with psychedelics onto me and essentially said I was being dishonest with myself. I chose not to respond or defend myself or my point of view. He was the only one with anything oppositional to say.
Another person did respect how difficult it would be to openly discuss the use of illegal drugs in a drug rehabilitation program and thought that it would be sad if I were to obtain a good deal of clean time only to have a run in with the law and find myself in jail. I agreed that it is a legitimate concern. Although most arrests involving these kinds of drugs are on the distribution and manufacturing level and not so much on the users level. I wouldn't be going to raves, I wouldn't be selling and I wouldn't be driving around with large quanities of these drugs. The only thing SWIM would ever mess with would be mushrooms, DMT and mescaline which would keep swim from dealing with shady characters or possible undercovers.
My councilor is actually really cool. His concept of God is actually very similar to mine in that we can't be certain of anything but have some faith in some force having a hand in life on this planet and further more that there are a great many things that lie outside of our perception.
He essentially just said to be careful. To not forget that I am an addict and to be open to other ways of gaining spiritual enlightenment. He said that my motives were sound and I should stand by them but that I should be careful of the means I use to gain perspective. For the most part everyone in the group respected me bringing up the subject and this group ranges from a 19 year alcoholic born of wealthy parents, an alcoholic staunchly republican woman in her fifties, an X-hippie prescription drug addict, some wanna be gangster coke heads in their early twenties, an alcoholic sorority girl and more. I only say this because yesterday and today those labels, those surface features, didn't matter. We were all just human beings talking about existence, life and how confusing it all is and everyone had very different answers to this God question. Even the bible beating Christians respected what I had to say. Possibly because I respect their beliefs as their own and not mine to judge.
All in all I was quite surprised by the reaction I got and I am glad I spoke up on the subject.
I did not mention my recent use of mescaline and DMT simply because I have a looming court date and that could effect the certificate of completion.
 
Opiyum:
I'm also interested in hearing other's reactions. Congrats on the sobriety! I also consider pleasure drugs different than psychs. Personally, I have tried to stay away from opiates as much as possible. I've seen too many good lives ruined because of H and oxy. I've experimented with Hydrocodone and Oxycodone in limited amounts. I like Kratom, which reminds me that I need to order more. Can anyone recommend a vendor better than the few well known ones? It's legal, almost everywhere, so hopefully that doesn't violate forum rules.

West-en:
I agree with your idea of left and right drugs. I would put cannabis slightly to the right of center. It's my reward at the emd of a stressful day or to make that rare day off even better. I probably smoke about 3-5 times a week, but have quit when needed and don't feel much psychological addiction. I have slight anxiety issues that cannabis keeps in check so I don't have to rely on very addictive benzos.
 
I can't personally vouch for any Kratom vendors because the one time I've acquired it and used it I felt nothing but kind of expected that considering my tolerance at the time (also I don't know if Kratom vendor talk would be taboo around here). I did feel some relief while I was in withdrawals once but it only lasted an hour and was only a reprieve form some of the major symptoms. I still had restless legs and watery eyes and was yawning like crazy but it did remove the entire body ache, core chill/sweats and nausea.
My tolerance now is certainly lower than it was and I still actually have some left but I don't think it would be very wise of me to experiment with it at this stage. If I had some dried poppys or a few pounds of seeds I would have had to have gotten rid of them but for some reason the Kratom doesn't tempt me.
 
In response to the original post:
My view of god is still a thing of interest to me, but it is currently in flux. I guess you could call me agnostic. I was raised in a SE USA small town with two very good, but very conservative parents. I went to church 2x on Sun, on Wednedsdays and to all of the special events. The church is a "bible believing evangelical southern Pentecostal" type of Christianity that was affiliated with the Church of God(Cleveland, TN) for many years.

I have dropped most of the theological and social agenda that I was brouht up in. Don't get me wrong, my parents are good people. They love me and make a difference in the world for the better. However, we don't agree on most religious, social, political issues. Some of this I share with them and some of it I keep to myself because blind honestly would not make them change their views. Instead, I focus on broadening their horizons by exposing them to other cultures and religions. We've had more of a friendly relationship these last few years, but partially because I hold stuff back. Is this wrong, or is spreading love and knowledge to those who need worth biting your tongue on other things
 
Thank you all for good posts.
I haven't done any opiates. The closest would be tramadol but I've done speed and coke which for me are easy ways to temporary numb pain and depression. It's a good way to get high. And it's easy to get hooked. If you feel like shit you do some coke and you feel good. If you feel good and you do some coke you feel great.
But with psychedelics you can't do that. If you feel like shit you will probably go to hell for a while if you trip. I only do psychedelics when I feel good. And very often when I feel good I don't want anything 'cause I'm fine. So I just trip when the time seems right. And I'm usually busy and I have a family so I only trip several times a year.
But cannabis is one way out of boredom so I tend to smoke too much :p hehehe It's easy to get hooked on things that get you out of the gray reality :)
 
this is a good thread, very interested to see the responses.

I have never been addicted to anything but food.
I had a GF I dated for 4 years that was an alcoholic, it was hard to deal with and was the main reason I never married her and the broke up. Now my step father (also best friend) is an alcoholic seeking help, he finally woke up after doing some pretty stupid shit that made him look bad, and almost lost his job.

I have a cousin who broke into a drug store just to get Oxycodone. He went to jail. Got out after a year and started to get his life straight, doing good for himself. Then he thought he could have a little taste of OC again without anyone finding out, well from what I hear he went off the deep end and hit his wife when she caught him, went to jail high and is now looking at 10 years for breaking parole and assault. He started out with Vicodin after he hurt his back working and then got hooked on opioids.

These were the people that got messed up and addicted the most in my life. Not the pot heads, not the rollers, but the people that got their shit legally. I know crack, meth and heroin can screw up your life also.

I have smoked weed for the past 15 years but never regularly. Sometime I smoke it 5 days a week, then I will not have it for six months. I never felt an addiction to it.

As for psychedelics, I don't think there is any way for me to get addicted to them, they are way to mental, you need a break from them.

The only thing I have felt myself being addicted to is food, Sweets and foods with MSG. I have reasoned (lied) with myself many times on why having one last bowl of ice cream for the week would not harm anything or stopping at McDonald's. After 28 I have struggled with my weight (or eating) a lot. I am 5'10" and 34 years old now, at my heaviest I was 220lbs (last year) In my early 20's I only weighed 145-165.

In the past year I noticed my addiction to MSG loaded foods and sweets. I had to make a lifestyle change. It was the hardest thing I ever did in my life. 80% of all the foods in the store have MSG in it. Since I cut it all out, I have lost 70lbs. I now way 150lbs again and my taste has completely changed. Almonds are now sweet to me. I eat so many more things now, things I would have never touched before.

I really think food is the number one addiction in America. The MSG lobbyists are spending more money than the tobacco lobbyists ever dreamt about to keep it that way.

Psychedelics help me realize this. They opened my mind.
 
I forgot to add that I used Nicotine from 2001 - Jun. 2009. I have conqured that dependency and I have never really felt addicted to anything else. Alcohol is the next thing that I would like to control. I don't drink everyday or anything like that anymore, but everynow and then I'll go on Bender when hanging out with good friends. If cannabis were decriminalized, I would virtually stop drinking.
 
Mr Fantasy said:
These were the people that got messed up and addicted the most in my life. Not the pot heads, not the rollers, but the people that got their shit legally. I know crack, meth and heroin can screw up your life also.

I have smoked weed for the past 15 years but never regularly. Sometime I smoke it 5 days a week, then I will not have it for six months. I never felt an addiction to it.

As for psychedelics, I don't think there is any way for me to get addicted to them, they are way to mental, you need a break from them.

The only thing I have felt myself being addicted to is food, Sweets and foods with MSG. I have reasoned (lied) with myself many times on why having one last bowl of ice cream for the week would not harm anything or stopping at McDonald's. After 28 I have struggled with my weight (or eating) a lot. I am 5'10" and 34 years old now, at my heaviest I was 220lbs (last year) In my early 20's I only weighed 145-165.

In the past year I noticed my addiction to MSG loaded foods and sweets. I had to make a lifestyle change. It was the hardest thing I ever did in my life. 80% of all the foods in the store have MSG in it. Since I cut it all out, I have lost 70lbs. I now way 150lbs again and my taste has completely changed. Almonds are now sweet to me. I eat so many more things now, things I would have never touched before.

I really think food is the number one addiction in America. The MSG lobbyists are spending more money than the tobacco lobbyists ever dreamt about to keep it that way.

Psychedelics help me realize this. They opened my mind.
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I agree with you and congratulations on yout steps towards health. I don't feel addicted to food but have begun to implememt a better diet, in general, as I began working on my Master's in Public Health. I'm becoming more concisious of good nutrition and the importance of prevention.

Fast Food Nation and similar docs have raised these isssues very well. Spread the knowledge as this is one of our greatest public health concern and future medical expenditures. Thanks!
 
Opiyum: for a long time I was convinced that opiates like heroin are drugs which bring you back to the undisturbed floating peace of the "good womb". If they do just that, I can understand why people find it valuable, but I don't feel the need to know more (the possible dangers outweigh the benefits).

But once on some forum a heroin user claimed that one can in fact gain deep insights on heroin, that it's a world on its own and it has its own secrets to reveal. He kinda looked down on me for not knowing this. He seemed to think that heroin provides something similar in depth than what can be revealed by psychedelics.

May I ask what's your take on this question? You seem to have plenty of experience with H. Can that substance be used for self-exploration, understanding or spiritual growth? What does it do?
 
cellux said:
But once on some forum a heroin user claimed that one can in fact gain deep insights on heroin, that it's a world on its own and it has its own secrets to reveal. He kinda looked down on me for not knowing this. He seemed to think that heroin provides something similar in depth than what can be revealed by psychedelics.

May I ask what's your take on this question? You seem to have plenty of experience with H. Can that substance be used for self-exploration, understanding or spiritual growth? What does it do?
Click to expand...


NO. Heroin can be used to NUMB youself physically, emotionally, and spiritually. I never gained any insight into myself expect how low I would go to make sure I didn't get dope sick. It has it's uses, sure, but it does not provide any spiritual insight or help with personal growth. I've known many, many, many herion addicts and I have never heard anyone of them comment on how they have gained any insight becuase of it. Please trust me on this one, I've been there and done that for 8+ years.

DMT is my anti-drug.
 
Thanks, I just raised this question in the hope that someone experienced with opiates will clarify this once and for all.
 
H to me seems to be anti-spiritual. Swim never tried it and never will just because he knows where it leads. Swim has a close friend that got totally wrapped up into opiates. Within a year he hit rock bottom. He went from messing around with Oxys, to snorting H to shooting H. He would steal from his family to get money, sold all his stuff, didnt pay bills and got car repoed, just endless amounts of personal problems. This is all within a years time. Now hes stuck doing the methadone thing everyday. Swims pretty sure he still does H and coke, so swim doesnt think hes using the methadone to get clean, just using it to not get sick in the morning. H seems to really warp peoples brains and not in a good way like DMT.
 
cellux said:
Opiyum: for a long time I was convinced that opiates like heroin are drugs which bring you back to the undisturbed floating peace of the "good womb". If they do just that, I can understand why people find it valuable, but I don't feel the need to know more (the possible dangers outweigh the benefits).

But once on some forum a heroin user claimed that one can in fact gain deep insights on heroin, that it's a world on its own and it has its own secrets to reveal. He kinda looked down on me for not knowing this. He seemed to think that heroin provides something similar in depth than what can be revealed by psychedelics.

May I ask what's your take on this question? You seem to have plenty of experience with H. Can that substance be used for self-exploration, understanding or spiritual growth? What does it do?
Click to expand...

It's a romantic idea and I can understand where this person is coming from. I can't discount what he is saying completely but I also know that my experience with heroin and opioids in general wasn't all that spiritual. Maybe in the beginning it could provide some insights and even somewhat spiritual experiences. I can remember times when in between sleep and being awake where the dream world and reality seemed to be one. That's about the only thing that I have experienced above and beyond the alteration of your perception of pain and euphoria. Euphoria itself will change the way you relate to the world around so theres that too...
This is difficult for me to talk about. I don't think I'm getting my point across very well...
...All the above is really null and void once dependency kicks. It quickly become a very self-centered self-indulgent way of life. The only concern is the next fix. This behavior will eventually begin to negatively effect the world around the addict. A self destructive way of life follows. The idea that conscious self destruction is somehow a way to grow spiritually at first makes me want to say go try it out and see how spiritual you feel but then I think of the fact that so many addicts end up being very very spiritual people after climbing out from under the bridge and putting down the dope. So there is that but I don't think that has anything to do with the drug itself. Even non-addicts crash and burn and don't care and then, possibly, one day may become spiritually enlightened when the pain becomes to great and they do something about it.
"Can that substance be used for self-exploration, understanding or spiritual growth? What does it do?"
Having said all that I would have to say no. The drug itself and it's effects don't enable this sort of thinking. Were I in still using my answer may have been different. I would have been lying to myself.
A junkie loves the idea that Jung called us "frustrated mystics". They (perhaps I should say I) want to believe that they are different and they are tapped into something that "others" normal people don't understand and that they are missing out because of it.
That's the best I can do with this question right now. Like I said it's difficult to think about at this moment.
 
That was a very real and honest description that I would hope to hear from a former addict onto the path of recovery and healing. Sounds like you have really learned and grown from this experience. Best wishes to you!


Opiyum said:
cellux said:
Opiyum: for a long time I was convinced that opiates like heroin are drugs which bring you back to the undisturbed floating peace of the "good womb". If they do just that, I can understand why people find it valuable, but I don't feel the need to know more (the possible dangers outweigh the benefits).

But once on some forum a heroin user claimed that one can in fact gain deep insights on heroin, that it's a world on its own and it has its own secrets to reveal. He kinda looked down on me for not knowing this. He seemed to think that heroin provides something similar in depth than what can be revealed by psychedelics.

May I ask what's your take on this question? You seem to have plenty of experience with H. Can that substance be used for self-exploration, understanding or spiritual growth? What does it do?
Click to expand...

It's a romantic idea and I can understand where this person is coming from. I can't discount what he is saying completely but I also know that my experience with heroin and opioids in general wasn't all that spiritual. Maybe in the beginning it could provide some insights and even somewhat spiritual experiences. I can remember times when in between sleep and being awake where the dream world and reality seemed to be one. That's about the only thing that I have experienced above and beyond the alteration of your perception of pain and euphoria. Euphoria itself will change the way you relate to the world around so theres that too...
This is difficult for me to talk about. I don't think I'm getting my point across very well...
...All the above is really null and void once dependency kicks. It quickly become a very self-centered self-indulgent way of life. The only concern is the next fix. This behavior will eventually begin to negatively effect the world around the addict. A self destructive way of life follows. The idea that conscious self destruction is somehow a way to grow spiritually at first makes me want to say go try it out and see how spiritual you feel but then I think of the fact that so many addicts end up being very very spiritual people after climbing out from under the bridge and putting down the dope. So there is that but I don't think that has anything to do with the drug itself. Even non-addicts crash and burn and don't care and then, possibly, one day may become spiritually enlightened when the pain becomes to great and they do something about it.
"Can that substance be used for self-exploration, understanding or spiritual growth? What does it do?"
Having said all that I would have to say no. The drug itself and it's effects don't enable this sort of thinking. Were I in still using my answer may have been different. I would have been lying to myself.
A junkie loves the idea that Jung called us "frustrated mystics". They (perhaps I should say I) want to believe that they are different and they are tapped into something that "others" normal people don't understand and that they are missing out because of it.
That's the best I can do with this question right now. Like I said it's difficult to think about at this moment.
Click to expand...
 
Personally the only psychedelic I've had problems with or seen anyone else have problems with is ketamine.

In my experience it has an insidious psychologically addictive quality for some people. Thinking about it, I'd say it's a combination of the extremity of the psychedelic part of it, the speed with which it comes on and dissipates and its dissasociative anaesthetic quality (analogous to the comfortable numbess of opiates). I started out using it a little on weekends doing small amounts, but over time found myself doing it pretty much every day, keeping myself semi-numbed with small doses all day then ramping it up at night to obscene, hyperspace coma doses. I normally have a pretty responsible attitude towards drugs, have used plenty of highly addicting drugs on and off over the years with no real habits forming, and keep a close eye on my behaviour and usage but with ketamine I found I always had an excuse. This behaviour was especially worrying because my use of drugs was always in the spirit of scientific exploration; I never took anything just for kicks (well nothing psychedelic anyway heh). The subconscious drive to stay in that anaesthetised other world was so strong that, a for a while before I took a step back, even though it had started to make me sick almost every time, I kept doing it.

It took me over a year to realise what I was doing; it only becoming apparrent as I watched a formerly incredibly bright friend slowly become more and more divorced from reality because of it, to the point that ideas stopped connecting for him, even the most basic of knock knock jokes went over his head. His useage continued unabated for several more years making him increasingly mentally disabled as his life fell apart around him while he drooled on the floor off in heaven. It's the only psychedelic in whose users I regularly see junkie like tendencies forming over time.

Physically addictive? No. Psychologically addictive with great potential for abuse? In my experience, definitely.
 
Opiyum: thank you very much for writing this. For some reason, I feel a deep empathy towards you (or the person I imagine you are).

I'm deeply moved by the idea of "frustrated mystic", although in me this image evokes deep sadness rather than frustration. The associated image is that of a child being left by her parents and in her loneliness looking for consolation in substances. Being mesmerized by the call of Thanatos... Yeah, there is a definite romantic feel to it.

On the other hand, I can't really understand why they don't reach for psychedelics immediately. There may be something to what you hinted at: that they must first go down on the dark route, because of their self-destructive desire which must be completely exhausted, otherwise they couldn't start their ascension back towards the Light. A lot of the fallen angels may tread on that path.

(It may be that this self-destructive desire is connected with self-hatred. Perhaps the cure would be to get to the core of this self-hatred and uncover the reason for it.)
 
I just wanted to thank everyone who has replied so far and thank those who have said such kind things. Being in the extremely vulnerable state that I am in you couldn't begin to imagine how much it helps even though you are all faceless and nameless and I will never truly know any of you.
This certainly appears to be a great community of people and I am very happy to be part of it.
 
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