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Psychedelics and Mental Illness

northape

northape

Custodian of Wisdom
Senior Member
Senior member
It feels like we seldom talk about the dark side of psychedelic use: mental illness. Most of us know that psychedelics could trigger a dormant pathology in people. Even a healthy individual could go into psychotic states and experience what craziness is firsthand. I'd say that psychedelics are like walking a tightrope: you need to maintain a fine balance to stay sane and get all the benefits. Somehow, they attract mentally ill people like bees to flowers. I saw the same situation on the old Ayahuasca Forums. These people usually use extremely high doses and feed on others' attention. Not one of them made any sustained effort to fix the situation. All they did was play the part of a messiah and an I-know-it-all character.

Spirituality is just the same. You would not believe how much mental illness there is in churches and dharma centers. I get that liberation or awakening lies very close to insanity. Craziness is like a rite of passage into greater awareness of the Universe. Accepting it all and moving beyond mind loops opens you up to Reality. Still, it's all over the place...

What do you think about mental illness around psychedelics and spirituality? How can one best deal with these people?
They do not seem to respond to kindness or reasoning. At this point, I feel like leaving them to their own devices 😮‍💨
 
"Mental illness" is a very broad term, and depending on who you ask, it will include certain typologies or not. I personally wouldn't consider mental illness anything that doesn't have a serious negative impact on the person in their life, or the life of those around.

With this being said: yes, I agree that psychedelics have a high potential to unleash mental problems in people. They are not only amplifiers, they are destabilizing by nature, in the sense of disrupting the usual mental patterns. This can be very useful and can even become part of a new type of balance, but it can also leave someone who was already on edge in a very bad state.

I have personal experience with this. I first had psychedelics when I was 18. It was a moment of change in my life, as that age usually is. I had been living for many years in a bad situation with a lot of suffering, but was very unaware of it. And I was severely underdeveloped, emotionally. My first trip was with mushrooms that I grew, a low dose. I remember some Escher-type visuals, but most of all a feeling that something was terribly wrong with me and maybe reality itself. Like a stain on my soul.

My mind was already on edge, and psychedelics tipped it over the line. I fell in a severe depression with bouts of compulsion, strong anxiety, self-harming behaviors. I didn't understand what was going on and thought that it would improve by going deeper on the roots of the issues, so I tried to go deeper with psychedelics. It was all too much at once, and it only made things worse. Then the problem got even worse when I was overmedicated by a so-called psychiatrist, but that's a different story.

I got many good and helpful lessons from psychedelics even during those years, but it was not the right moment for me, and their overall effect was more harmful that good. at least the short and mid term effects; on a longer timeframe it's hard to say. But after my first experiences I should have stayed clear from them until I was more stable, I eventually did that.

What I learned from this situation is that one needs a minimum of stability for doing that kind of work. Psychedelics can help tear down outdated, maladaptive, or otherwise not very good mental structures, but there also needs to be some time to build something different in its place.

I don't know if it's a similar case for people who go into psychosis, maybe the causes there are different, although (besides a genetic predisposition) there often seems to be an aspect of overdoing it and not leaving time for integration. Probably someone else can offer more insight in how psychedelic-facilitated psychotic delusions feel from the inside. With pharmahuasca in particular, I've often had some "insights" about myself or reality that, while true in some kind of metaphorical way, would be very problematic if literally believed. So I wonder if there could be some factors related to this that could contribute to this kind of psychosis in some cases. To be clear, I'm not saying that all or even most cases of psychosis are caused by this. But I could see how someone who has never thought about any kind of metaphysical or spiritual topics and suddenly has an extreme experience that points to them apparently having some privileged, "special" knowledge about the nature of reality could more easily end up believing it.

northape said:
How can one best deal with these people?
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Probably it depends on cases. If they are more open to conversation, listening to them and offering some understanding of their experiences without either judging them or supporting their delusions could be helpful. If it's one of those cases of strong messianic delusions where they have the ultimate truth and you're just an ignorant idiot jealous of them, I don't see a way to have any positive effects, and many ways to have negative ones.
 
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northape said:
What do you think about mental illness around psychedelics and spirituality?
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In my experience, psychedelics can help heal mental illness. I know a few people who had schizophrenia and were cured by psilocybin mushrooms. They are absolutely healthy and happy now. Psychedelics can also help heal addictions. However, it requires the correct approach, and the person should have acceptance and a willingness to learn and be healthy. Many mental illnesses may be due to demonic obsession, but when people refuse to acknowledge this fact, they are more likely to remain stuck. The most obsessed people I have met were often atheists or highly religious. Both extremes can be problematic. In both cases, their inflated ego doesn't allow them to grow and become healthier.
 
One of the most evil guys I know is an atheist who took LSD once and never did it again because it made him see "things that were not there" . In my head canon he started to feel the divine presence and his soul recoiled but who knows. He definitely would've benefitted from more LSD :)
 
blig-blug said:
"Mental illness" is a very broad term, and depending on who you ask, it will include certain typologies or not. I personally wouldn't consider mental illness anything that doesn't have a serious negative impact on the person in their life, or the life of those around.

With this being said: yes, I agree that psychedelics have a high potential to unleash mental problems in people. They are not only amplifiers, they are destabilizing by nature, in the sense of disrupting the usual mental patterns. This can be very useful and can even become part of a new type of balance, but it can also leave someone who was already on edge in a very bad state.

I have personal experience with this. I first had psychedelics when I was 18. It was a moment of change in my life, as that age usually is. I had been living for many years in a bad situation with a lot of suffering, but was very unaware of it. And I was severely underdeveloped, emotionally. My first trip was with mushrooms that I grew, a low dose. I remember some Escher-type visuals, but most of all a feeling that something was terribly wrong with me and maybe reality itself. Like a stain on my soul.

My mind was already on edge, and psychedelics tipped it over the line. I fell in a severe depression with bouts of compulsion, strong anxiety, self-harming behaviors. I didn't understand what was going on and thought that it would improve by going deeper on the roots of the issues, so I tried to go deeper with psychedelics. It was all too much at once, and it only made things worse. Then the problem got even worse when I was overmedicated by a so-called psychiatrist, but that's a different story.

I got many good and helpful lessons from psychedelics even during those years, but it was not the right moment for me, and their overall effect was more harmful that good. at least the short and mid term effects, on a longer timeframe is hard to say. But after my first experiences I should have stayed clear from them until I was more stable, I eventually did that.

What I learned from this situation is that one needs a minimum of stability for doing that kind of work. Psychedelics can help tear down outdated, maladaptive, or otherwise not very good mental structures, but there also needs to be some time to build something different in its place.

I don't know if it's a similar case for people who go into psychosis, maybe the causes there are different, although (besides a genetic predisposition) there often seems to be an aspect of overdoing it and not leaving time for integration. Probably someone else can offer more insight in how psychedelic-facilitated psychotic delusions feel from the inside. With pharmahuasca in particular, I've often had some "insights" about myself or reality that, while true in some kind of metaphorical way, would be very problematic if literally believed. So I wonder if there could be some factors related to this that could contribute to this kind of psychosis in some cases. To be clear, I'm not saying that all or even most cases of psychosis are caused by this. But I could see how someone who has never thought about any kind of metaphysical or spiritual topics and suddenly has an extreme experience that points to them apparently having some privileged, "special" knowledge about the nature of reality could more easily end up believing it.


Probably it depends on cases. If they are more open to conversation, listening to them and offering some understanding of their experiences without either judging them or supporting their delusions could be helpful. If it's one of those cases of strong messianic delusions where they have the ultimate truth and you're just an ignorant idiot jealous of them, I don't see a way to have any positive effects, and many ways to have negative ones.
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Once again, you hit the nail on the head, from multiple angles. Basically all I wanted to say on the topic, you've said above. <3
 
Zombie666 said:
I know a few people who had schizophrenia and were cured by psilocybin mushrooms. They are absolutely healthy and happy now.
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I would like to just point this out and offer a formal warning to anyone that might be reading it in the future - if you or a close one suffers from schizophrenia or a similar condition, do not resort to psychedelics as your first option. They can make things much, much worse. Always seek professional help first.
 
Pumpy said:
One of the most evil guys I know is an atheist who took LSD once and never did it again because it made him see "things that were not there" . In my head canon he started to feel the divine presence and his soul recoiled but who knows. He definitely would've benefitted from more LSD :)
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That's how it works with atheists and religious fanatics too. They are very similar in their ignorance. A puffed up ego doesn't allow them to accept the truth.
 
Please let's not move this thread towards deriding those ignorant fanatics that, unlike our enlightened selves, don't know the Truth. It's all quite ironic (even more in a thread tangentially about delusions), doesn't really say much about anything, and goes against the Attitude:
The Attitude page said:
If you have an opinion about something, respectfully state it, but please do not talk in absolutes about right and wrong or disrespectfully disregard other world views.
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northape said:
It feels like we seldom talk about the dark side of psychedelic use: mental illness. Most of us know that psychedelics could trigger a dormant pathology in people. Even a healthy individual could go into psychotic states and experience what craziness is firsthand. I'd say that psychedelics are like walking a tightrope: you need to maintain a fine balance to stay sane and get all the benefits. Somehow, they attract mentally ill people like bees to flowers. I saw the same situation on the old Ayahuasca Forums. These people usually use extremely high doses and feed on others' attention. Not one of them made any sustained effort to fix the situation. All they did was play the part of a messiah and an I-know-it-all character.

Spirituality is just the same. You would not believe how much mental illness there is in churches and dharma centers. I get that liberation or awakening lies very close to insanity. Craziness is like a rite of passage into greater awareness of the Universe. Accepting it all and moving beyond mind loops opens you up to Reality. Still, it's all over the place...

What do you think about mental illness around psychedelics and spirituality? How can one best deal with these people?
They do not seem to respond to kindness or reasoning. At this point, I feel like leaving them to their own devices 😮‍💨
Click to expand...

I think you raise an important point. It’s true that some people lose balance with psychedelics, and if someone is already unstable, it can take a very long time to recover. At the same time, I believe this danger is often overstated. For most people, occasional psychedelic use seems to cause little to no lasting harm, and some studies even suggest the opposite. Still, cases do exist. But compared with psychedelics, alcohol is a much bigger trigger for psychosis, yet society treats it very differently.

From my experience, once someone is in psychosis or has schizophrenia, there is very little a non-professional can do. Their thoughts and behaviors rarely connect with external reasoning, which makes it very difficult to engage.

I saw this firsthand with a friend. Years after I first introduced him to DMT, he developed schizophrenia and eventually became homeless. In the beginning I tried to arrange housing and support, but I learned that was beyond what I could realistically do. He isn’t dangerous, but also not “ill enough” to be institutionalized, so he falls between shore and ship. Sometimes he shows up at night wanting me to go with him through a “portal,” because he feels I am the only one who understands him. All I can really do in those moments is give him a sandwich and talk. That doesn’t solve anything, but it’s the limit of my support in those moments. I also actively ask if he is thinking about suicidal things if I feel that he is depressed. Luckily he never does.

I still try to contact services for him whenever I know he’s without shelter, but even professionals often can’t intervene effectively if someone refuses help. That’s one of the biggest challenges. In short, helping someone with these issues is difficult, and can be very draining. My advice would be to; first, guard your own boundaries and always be nice when you’re dealing with someone who is not well. And second, get professionals involved as soon as possible.

As for spirituality, I’m not spiritual myself. To me it often looks like it arises as a response to a reality that offers little meaning. As Irvin Yalom described, our ultimate existential concerns are death, freedom, isolation, and meaninglessness. In that light, spirituality can function as a substitute for religion, to solve some of the fears around meaninglessness. My concern is that it often stops thinking (not you ❤️ or some of the other members here, but in daily life) and tends to drift into magical thinking instead of an investigative mindset. With that loosing an opportunity to really understand what is going on or accept that it’s unknown.

Take care
 
@Pumpy, are you @Zombie666?

@blig-blug, I used the broader term, but I lean closer to your description of it. Often I try to engage with and listen to these characters, but it seems that they only crave attention most of the time. Thanks for sharing your experience and perspective on it all 🙏

@Varallo, I feel that we need to be compassionate and cool-headed at the same time. Letting them influence you in any way feels counterproductive. The same kind of people tend to go deep into religion and preach God's word. I agree that we need to live in the world and ask questions without some blind faith. Thanks for your reflections; I'll reread them a few times ;)
 
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I'm sure many of us have had the experience of altered states hitting us with a 'truth' that seems irrefutable in the moment. Usually I wake up the next day with a more grounded view, or even completely forget the revelation all together.

But that moment of 'truth' can be extremely compelling. I can imagine that a more self contained soul could be fully convinced of what they think they have been shown. I can see how they could want to preach the new gospel to anyone who will listen.

Like Nydex asks, is there only one truth? Most mature souls understand there are about 8 billion versions of truth going around.

A person who lives firmly in first person mode, the centre of the universe is inbetween their eyes, simply cannot distinguish between their personal truth and the wider reality of individual egos.

We all have the potential to be 'mentally ill' especially if abusing altered states. So I would say the key to safe exploration is to first cement the concept that your own insanity is just that...your own.
 
fink said:
I'm sure many of us have had the experience of altered states hitting us with a 'truth' that seems irrefutable in the moment. Usually I wake up the next day with a more grounded view, or even completely forget the revelation all together.

But that moment of 'truth' can be extremely compelling. I can imagine that a more self contained soul could be fully convinced of what they think they have been shown. I can see how they could want to preach the new gospel to anyone who will listen.

Like Nydex asks, is there only one truth? Most mature souls understand there are about 8 billion versions of truth going around.

A person who lives firmly in first person mode, the centre of the universe is inbetween their eyes, simply cannot distinguish between their personal truth and the wider reality of individual egos.

We all have the potential to be 'mentally ill' especially if abusing altered states. So I would say the key to safe exploration is to first cement the concept that your own insanity is just that...your own.
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I agree with how you presented this. At least, I saw it in my own work with psychedelics.
How would you deal with someone who has gone off the rails and doesn't see it?
 
Not sure. I suppose the first step would be No More Drugs for a while.

Perhaps there could be a way of leading a person to a more third person vantage point? Much harder to be insane from an objective stance. Insanity is surely the domain of subjective thinking
 
This is a much more informative thread on the topic. Give it a good, thorough read ;)

The Psychonaut to Addiction/Dysfunction Pipeline

Hello all. I'd like to open up a discussion which some may find controversial, but it's something I want to bring attention to regarding the possible consequences and contraindications for DMT and Psychedelic use. 12 years ago, I was 17 years old, drawn to this forum by the rising popularity...
forum.dmt-nexus.me forum.dmt-nexus.me
 
northape said:
It feels like we seldom talk about the dark side of psychedelic use: mental illness. Most of us know that psychedelics could trigger a dormant pathology in people. Even a healthy individual could go into psychotic states and experience what craziness is firsthand. I'd say that psychedelics are like walking a tightrope: you need to maintain a fine balance to stay sane and get all the benefits. Somehow, they attract mentally ill people like bees to flowers. I saw the same situation on the old Ayahuasca Forums. These people usually use extremely high doses and feed on others' attention. Not one of them made any sustained effort to fix the situation. All they did was play the part of a messiah and an I-know-it-all character.

Spirituality is just the same. You would not believe how much mental illness there is in churches and dharma centers. I get that liberation or awakening lies very close to insanity. Craziness is like a rite of passage into greater awareness of the Universe. Accepting it all and moving beyond mind loops opens you up to Reality. Still, it's all over the place...

What do you think about mental illness around psychedelics and spirituality? How can one best deal with these people?
They do not seem to respond to kindness or reasoning. At this point, I feel like leaving them to their own devices 😮‍💨
Click to expand...
I think they could benefit with Carl Jung’s active imagination and individuation but it needs exactly what you mention is missing… empathy brought to the experience so that the hostile archetypes can be transformed. My ideas went beyond what Jung offered and my ideas were pretty much scoffed at, but a few people liked it.
 
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