psychedelics without psychedelics

[gerdi]

I understand this is a forum primarily to do with the effects of psychedelics like DMT to achieve altered states of reality but i am going to post this anyway.

after a few very serious life changing events i was sort of moved into esoteric ideology with more of an open mind then the bastard i use to be ( and in a few ways still am ) Now i dont actually have much experience in psychedelics besides mushrooms and i think i took a pill that had a bit of LSD once because all the walls started to wave like they were all in an ocean. Mushrooms was terrible , had 2 grams and it really tripped me up, i wasnt right for a few days after that. The thing is all the people that i use to know who were into psychedelics were just like all the okes doing coke, they just had really wild ideas, and after seeing someone drop 2 hits of acid i actually never wanted to touch the stuff. I dont think i want to do DMT either but anyway .. the ideology seemed to be a cover for blatant drug taking and having seen a few of those users become meth heads i can say with some certainty that they where anything but sincere. Of all , and i mean all the people i knew who did drugs , all of them including myself have f45ked up lives , not one has come out with a better perspective and respect for reality and our world.. which is really dis-heartening.

I actually dont really know where i am going with this , i think maybe to achieve high states of reality it might be better to get through the process without the aid of reality altering substances , i dont know , maybe i have just see to many people get hurt , destroyed by substance abuse . It seems like more a negative energy force then a positive one.

Besides that i really like the out there ideas that come for this forum whether its drug induced or not .. i also like reading marxism and james clerk maxwell though so. I also really think that the time and place in which i went through the drug experience was not a very good one.

anyways

 

[Ramabodhi]

I've seen a lot of lives messed up from drugs. I messed mine up quite good with drugs, more than once.

There is a different air with psychedelic use than with say speed, though I have used both as drugs for recreation, I have also used both as medicine.

I feel that instead of looking at supposedly inherent moral qualities in things or ideas, we should really be mindful of the intent in our hearts at each moment.

An angry or resentful heart will tend be angry or resentful on either coke or LSD. Even if the substance opens a door fo healing or letting go, it is still the intent in our heart to grow and learn that walks us throughthe door.

I think perhaps the true path to "higher states" is an open heart and mind and a sincere desire to learn and grow.

It is this mixed with medicine, yoga, meditation, chanting, drumming, etc- much like the evolution of modern physics, we must be careful not to neglect the observers effect on the construction of reality.

You are the zero point

Care to share what life changing experiences are opening you up, specifically to the esoteric?

 

[InfiniteRegress]

It's all about the "Set and Setting", meaning whats going on in your mind. I've seen people abuse drugs, including hallucinogens, however, i've witnessed more people become more insightful/mindful of the world and reality around them including myself. For a lot of people, like the ones you've described, seem to use drugs to escape this reality because they have a lot of nasty things going on in their lives. This, in turn, will cause them to abuse drugs instead of using them as a tool to expand your consciousness.. I personally have become waaaayy more insightful because i've used these chemicals for good instead of evil. I take these chemicals very seriously and for the betterment of my life.. Im sorry you've seen so many people ruin their lives on drugs but keep an open mind, a lot of people arent like that. Remember, it's all about moderation.. except i dont agree with the use of meth/crack/heroin etc... i feel these are the drugs that destroy lives, not hallucinogens. Much love.


Oh, and I'm currently a student studying philosophy with high goals and aspirations, not some druggy that doesn't do anything with their life.

 

[benzyme]

the title cancels itself out into null. it's essentially 1 - 1, which gives 0.
perhaps a more appropriate title would be "psychedelia without psychedelics"

 

[jamie]

A mushrooms trip and some experiences with pills that made the walls move is hardly enough to even begin to speculate on the nature of the psychedelic experience or how much of it can be replaced with other techniques..

Not that I am trying to offend you or anything..but it does not sound like you really understand what a medicine like ayahuasca is capable of by a long shot. This is no guided meditation..nor hot yoga..

Yes, also of people take drugs..and alot of those people take all kinds of drugs and that includes occasionaly trying some psychedelics..usually LSD or MDMA..alot of these people do tend to end up with cocaine addicitions etc becasue they basically are trying to get fraked up and use any drugs available and after a few ass kickings with psychedelics they either smarten up, or just swear off psychedelics and use narcotics instead. Just because someone takes LSD does not mean it is some spiritual cure for all of their problems..just as someone who does yoga can still be a completely unconscious jerk..this is why something like ayahuasca is work..it is THE work. It does not happen in once ceremony. This is a path you dedicate to and then if you stick to it you are enrolled in it's university.

Something like ayahuasca will take you farther than you can ever imagine..

"I actually dont really know where i am going with this , i think maybe to achieve high states of reality it might be better to get through the process without the aid of reality altering substances , i dont know , maybe i have just see to many people get hurt , destroyed by substance abuse . It seems like more a negative energy force then a positive one."

See I can see how it might LOOK that way, but really that makes little sense to me. The idea that you are going to just go do the work that can be done with a medicine like ayahuasca without even working with ayahausca to know what that work is seems absurd.

Sure, you can do alot of work without psychedelics..but one is not a replacement for the other. This discussion is ages old and will continue to be discussed but this is how I see it.. You will go much farther and get more work done if you do the work combining these master plant medicines with a lifestyle that incorperates other modalities as well, like meditation, yoga, dreamwork etc..

Someone who combines both modalities realizes that each one is the catalyst for the other, and that together a dynamix relationship is forged that will take one deeper than either modality will alone.

 

[Sky Motion]

It seems like your classifying psychedelics with a group of people that are trying to get messed up on anything, yes I know people like this, and yes they will take LSD or Mushrooms or even try DMT in this mindset, and they learn fast enough.

Why did you join this forum? Not trying to be rude here, but I don't understand.

 

[Walter D. Roy]

What your saying is along the lines of what a great Buddhist teacher told me when I asked him about the psychedelic world. I myself love psychedelics and the effects they have, but they do NOT lead to enlightenment if that is what you are looking for.

 

[benzyme]

I've come to the conclusion that enlightenment is like a unicorn. You'll only find it if you imagine it actually exists.

 

[jamie]

What your saying is along the lines of what a great Buddhist teacher told me when I asked him about the psychedelic world. I myself love psychedelics and the effects they have, but they do NOT lead to enlightenment if that is what you are looking for.

meh, sounds like asking a horse what it is like to be a donkey...

 

[RoGu3]

I've seen a lot of lives messed up from drugs. I messed mine up quite good with drugs, more than once.

There is a different air with psychedelic use than with say speed, though I have used both as drugs for recreation, I have also used both as medicine.

I feel that instead of looking at supposedly inherent moral qualities in things or ideas, we should really be mindful of the intent in our hearts at each moment.

An angry or resentful heart will tend be angry or resentful on either coke or LSD. Even if the substance opens a door fo healing or letting go, it is still the intent in our heart to grow and learn that walks us throughthe door.

I think perhaps the true path to "higher states" is an open heart and mind and a sincere desire to learn and grow.

It is this mixed with medicine, yoga, meditation, chanting, drumming, etc- much like the evolution of modern physics, we must be careful not to neglect the observers effect on the construction of reality.

You are the zero point

Care to share what life changing experiences are opening you up, specifically to the esoteric?

This^

 

[gerdi]

just been trying to understand all of this. reality that is. life , death, purpose , purposeless. I remember when i started drugs it was because of a girl but coming on to e for the first time felt very religious. That slowly faded away after a few months to a direct antithesis of that experience . I also once in a fit fir of delusion inhaled lighter fluid and feel like ..well... going through something like that makes you really wonder about , it made me wonder , wtf is this all for.

if it is just big bang evolution , which is the common mainstream idea , then this is really all for nothing, in a few billions or trillions of years the whole universe will just be an expansion of heat , leaving very little more for reason or meaning. Begs to question why we are even granted the concept of purpose.

I havnt done drugs in a long time and suffer from some fairly serious mental disabilities as a consequences of my past. anyway i want all of this to mean something but i dont think that drugs , especially hallucinogens will do me any good. I have read a bit to try and find you know. platos republic , das kapital, a bit of the bible , richard dawkins, a bit of adam smith and they all seem a bit .. i dont know , its doesnt seem to help , everyone just wants to be more important then the next. I am looking for bruce lee's book , i heard it was pretty good but i cant seem to find it anywhere and i dont have a credit card for amazon.

so basically i want to experience some sort of purpose , i actually kinda wish i could just inhibit a suspended state of REM dreaming .. the 2008 recession hit me hard ... it definitely made rethink everything

 

[jamie]

"I remember when i started drugs it was because of a girl but coming on to e for the first time felt very religious. That slowly faded away after a few months to a direct antithesis of that experience "

This is all very typical of MDMA in my experience. You cant really compare it at all to something like DMT, psilocybin or mescaline etc..

I understand what you are saying, but at the same time this is all just alot of analysis from someone outside of the realm of the experience itself. It is like looking out at the world from a glass house, but never actaully experiencing that world yet still making assumptions about it.

 

[jamie]

"if it is just big bang evolution , which is the common mainstream idea , then this is really all for nothing, in a few billions or trillions of years the whole universe will just be an expansion of heat , leaving very little more for reason or meaning. Begs to question why we are even granted the concept of purpose."

You can say that it is really all for nothing, but that really is only your personal perspective on it then. I dont get why the big bang theory would mean that this is all for nothing..in fact that makes absolutly no sense to me becasue reguardless of how you choose to interprete the big bang story that some scientist tells you, it is all still here. It is going somewhere because it got us here, which is somewhere.

The mythology of the big bang does not imply ANYWHERE that this is all for nothing anyway..all it does is explain expansion. You extrapolate the rest from that story yourself and the way the story is told can either inspire great awe and reverance for the miracle of existance or a sort of dead, plastic paradigm of a meaningless universe.

By the time the doomsday scenarios of some who interprete expansion in that light even come to pass odds are we will have progressed to states of understanding and being that are far far far beyond anything we can even conceive of at this point...so really the most we can do here is a sort excercise in mental masterbation without being of any real applicable value.

 

[Moondance]

LOL What?

 

[arcanum]

gerdi wrote:
"I actually dont really know where i am going with this , i think maybe to achieve high states of reality it might be better to get through the process without the aid of reality altering substances , i dont know , maybe i have just see to many people get hurt , destroyed by substance abuse . It seems like more a negative energy force then a positive one."

Hey there, sounds like you might be a candidate for a nice cuppa Banisteriopsis caapi tea.
"Ah I love the smell of B. caapi tea in the morning"

 

[WarriorPriest]

Quality post, Ramabodhi. I agree with you completely.

if it is just big bang evolution , which is the common mainstream idea , then this is really all for nothing, in a few billions or trillions of years the whole universe will just be an expansion of heat , leaving very little more for reason or meaning. Begs to question why we are even granted the concept of purpose.

I've struggled with this before. Something Alan Watts said helped me with it quite a bit:

"You're not something that is a result of the Big Bang...on the end of the process. You are still the process! You are the Big Bang, the original force of the Universe, coming on as whoever you are."

It sounds like, more than anything, Gerdi you are looking for purpose, a structure to make all this mean something, yes? I don't know if psychedelics can help you find that purpose, or meaning behind it all. Maybe they can, that's an individual journey.

But I will say that we only have one way to perceive reality, and that is consciousness. We swim in the sea of it at all times. Altering that medium gives me the perspective to realize just what a mystery it is, and take joy in that. It doesn't matter if you're an atheist, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, etc. It's still a supremely beautiful mystery, and the fact that we can even ponder such things maybe is purpose enough got now.

Do you think it could be enough to simply wonder? Perhaps that's our purpose? Not to know the answer for certain, but to be part of the process...to be the part of the Big Bang that asks enough questions and finds that purpose behind it all.

If that answer exists, I think it will be simpler and more profound than we can imagine. It may even have something to do with love.

Anyway, I've rambled long enough. May you find the peace and purpose you seek. You'll know when you do

WP

 

[Slappy White]

3 points

1- As to your concerns about the end of the universe:

If, by the end of the universe you are still upset with its passing, someone will probably come up to you, slap you, and say, "Why are you still whining about that dead universe that wasn't even yours in the first place? Sure it held some nostalgia as we all spent on the order of 99*10^10000 lives there but it's gone now, get up and make your own!"

2-On your concerns with purpose in life:

It is a belief of mine that if one wants to find some sort of purpose on life, one should stop thinking about what their purpose could be and go volunteer at a children's hospital or assisted living community. If, some how, this doesn't give you purpose in life, at least you helped some people who really need help.
If you are scared because you know that the people you help are going to die soon and you will be sad, just remember that being sad because a person you loved is no longer with you is better than knowing that someone you could have helped died alone and miserable in a hospital bed.

3- On your concerns with using drugs to attain enlightenment:

Drugs can never give you enlightenment (we should be so lucky). However, if used with much respect and wisdom, certain drugs can show us where to look for the path.
We can use the wizard of Oz as an analogy. Dorthy Went to OZ and found the yellow brick road, which lead to the emerald city and ultimately to the wizard. Think of Psychedelics not as the yellow brick road, but of the tornado that ripped up her house and threw it into that colorful land.

Anyway, this was my first post so thank you for making a thread that was interesting enough for a first post.