Qestion about Shroom casing

[nn-DMT]

I myself do not use casings anymore as I don't believe it is necessary when growing large quantities of mushrooms. Just another step to introduce contams and increase the amount of time needed to grow our little mushroom friends.

I have also never used casing layers. I agree with you, they are totally unnecessary for cubensis, and are just one more source of contamination. Especially when you use bulk substrates. The bulk substrate holds so much moisture that casing layers become obsolete.

Okay so hypothetically I want to follow Kungpow's Tek. In the tek he says to wait till the mycelium is just poking through the casing, but if I were to go about this without a casing layer at all, when should I initiate pinning? Should the dung be fully colonized with thick mycelium or just poking through like with using a casing?

 

[SnozzleBerry]

...just poking through like with using a casing...

:d

 

[bringeroflight]

It needs to be more than just poking through the top layer of substrate before fruiting, it should be fully colonized. It's best to give it a week's consolidation too by just letting it sit for 7 days or so after full colonization, and then fruiting. Well, that's what SWIM always uses.

 

[Ellis D'Empty]

Ok, after mixing your substrate with your spawn (1:1 or whatever ratio your doing) and you cover with foil and poke holes for FAE/humidity, then you put in IC (incubation chamber) until its full colonized (like 5-8 days normally).

After that, if you CHOOSE to go with a casing layer (def not needed unless growing mushrooms that need like 95%+ RH) then you apply maybe 1/4in layer on tp of NON NUTRI substance (vermiculite works wonders). After awhile you'll start seeing myc poking through at spots, just patch (add casing layer to those spots of poking myc) until you feel its good enough (I dont use casing, its pointless IMO/IME). Then just put in FC (fruit chamber)

Of course you could just not case, and once the substrate/spawn mix becomes fully colonized you can throw right in FC for faster growth.

A casing layer just helps keep RH up on the mycelium, depending on your strain (cubes only need like 80%+ RH) you won't need a casing layer.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

skullhuman - ime, you don't want the top fully colonized as that can lead to overlay and failure to fruit, rather you want a nice even distribution of mycellium poking up through the top layer of your substrate. At the point when you have a nice even layer of myc poking through the top of the substrate, your substrate is essentially fully colonized. At that point you initiate pinning by introducing blue-spectrum light and fae and...voila.

Kevin The Khem - the "non-nutritious" layer you reference is a casing layer and precisely what is being avoided in this scenario. (I know you get that, just trying to keep everything nice and clear and comprehensible)

 

[Ellis D'Empty]

Kevin The Khem - the "non-nutritious" layer you reference is a casing layer and precisely what is being avoided in this scenario. (I know you get that, just trying to keep everything nice and clear and comprehensible)

Oh! Haha, I had a hard time reading the OP (for some reason sometimes the posts just show the quote brackets and the whole post just gets jumbled so I kinda just skimmed the OP) Thanks for showing me my mistake!


Well, then the OP question is already answered: Just wait until the substrate/spawn is fully colonized (you'll know full colonization: it'll be PURE white [possibly some darker areas where the shadows lie]) you'll also want to wait maybe a couple more days once you THINK its fully colonized just to make sure (once you have some experience you'll know w/o having to wait the extra time), then go ahead and throw into the FC.

I've always done it this way and never had a problem with not fruiting.

 

[nn-DMT]

ime, you don't want the top fully colonized as that can lead to overlay and failure to fruit, rather you want a nice even distribution of mycellium poking up through the top layer of your substrate. At the point when you have a nice even layer of myc poking through the top of the substrate, your substrate is essentially fully colonized. At that point you initiate pinning by introducing blue-spectrum light and fae and...voila.

Ahh thank you Snozzleberry for clearing this up. I'm really not to experienced with mycology but from what I have read overlay can be quite devasting to the yield. If you don't mind me asking, what is your opinion on dunking? do you think I should dunk between each flush or is that unneccessary also?

Thank you all for the replies, kevin the khem & skullhuman.

 

[Ellis D'Empty]

I know you didn't ask me, but you should dunk after each flush IMO/IME.

 

[bringeroflight]

Fruit before full colonization? That's a new one on me. SWIM has never had any overlay problems and he usually gives at least a week's consolidation, which is pretty typical.. the norm, really. Sometimes SWIM even fruits late- to the point that pinning begins before fruiting conditions are even introduced, and has gotten massive flushes this way.

SWIM was always told that full colonization is pinning trigger number 1, so it never occurred to him to fruit early. As far as he understands, it will finish colonizing before fruiting anyway, and you're really just upping your contamination risk. And for what it's worth, he's never heard of anyone else doing this. But hey, if you find it works, go ahead.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

It's in kungpow's tek, it's all over the shroomery, mycotopia, etc, it's my own personal experience. When working with bulk substrate (i.e. spawning colonized grain or what have you to BS) you want the top of the BS layer to have a nice even layer of myc poking through it...you don't want it completely colonized, imo. Personally I've dunked BS that dried out due to inattention and got great flushes from it. That being said, when I'm actually paying the proper amount of attention to it and keeping the rh up, i've never had cause to dunk and gotten great flushes. Imo, that's something that's more or less personal preference (then again, a lot of stuff is, there are few hard and fast rules for growing stuff).

 

[bringeroflight]

I think everything being discussed here may be a matter of personal preference, as swim's experience runs somewhat contrary to yours, yet he's never had any problem getting a good flush.

SWIM has often fruited monotubs very, very late, and has had explosive results. But he'll give your technique a go and see for himself.

 

[nn-DMT]

Okay based on the replies so far, I think this is what I will hypothetically do:
1. allow the mycelieum to poke up evenly through the top of the Substrate, and try to get as much colonization as possible, while staying a safe distance from the point where overlay comes into the picture.
2. not dunk after each flush, but try to keep the RH very high to retain the moisture. If it dries out and hasn't become possesed by contams, I will dunk to possibly get another flush or 2.

I haven't found any solid facts to support this, but it just seems to me that dunking would introduce unnecessary cantams and encourage their takeover of the substrate. I have had a few failed attempts at mycology in the past (they weren't planned very well if at all), but this time I want to do it right and not lose to contams which have proven to be the sworn enemy of mushroom growers. this is all hypothetical of course.

 

[Ellis D'Empty]

As someone who's been growing shrooms for 4 yrs.... (Hope no one gets the idea I'm trying to bash)

Okay based on the replies so far, I think this is what I will hypothetically do:
1. allow the mycelieum to poke up evenly through the top of the Substrate, and try to get as much colonization as possible, while staying a safe distance from the point where overlay comes into the picture.

I've honestly never had a problem with overlay. I've always let full colonize (and used to even let go for longer)

2. not dunk after each flush, but try to keep the RH very high to retain the moisture. If it dries out and hasn't become possesed by contams, I will dunk to possibly get another flush or 2.
It totally depends on the substrate your using (as I didn't read the tek your using I dunno what it calls for, but it sounds [just from what I'm reading here] that it has some useless info IMHO) and how well that substrate can retain its nutrients. Once the myc is fully colonized, dunking it in water (I just use tap water from my sink even) shouldn't harm it. I say shouldn't because I've only had a few bad things happen whilst dunking (block breaking/not being as "sterile" as I should have been) If your RH is to high, it can actualy be a detriment to the myc (if you start to see water droplets you have to much, im assuming your using cubes?) Dunking after every flush, isn't necessary; however, if you don't your gonna be very T/Oed when your myc doesn't produce much and you have to wait that much longer until you get fruits again)


I haven't found any solid facts to support this, but it just seems to me that dunking would introduce unnecessary cantams and encourage their takeover of the substrate. I have had a few failed attempts at mycology in the past (they weren't planned very well if at all), but this time I want to do it right and not lose to contams which have proven to be the sworn enemy of mushroom growers. this is all hypothetical of course.

Like I said before, dunking will not hurt a fully colonized mycelium spawn. Unless you dunk for longer than 24hrs or in dirty water (I dunno about the 24hr thing as I dunk usually 14hrs or so). An easy way to dunk with bulk is to just fill the container your substrate is in to the top with water, and then tilt the excess out after said time.

Honestly if I were you I'd do the rez effect tech.... Its simple:

1:1 spawn WBS/Verm. Mix in tub, cover top with foil, poke holes for FAE and put in inc chamber for about a week (or until myc is fully colonized) and then move right into your FC.

I've tried many ways, and this is by far the simplest bulk method I've ever come across.

The only thing I can say about fruiting before full colonization is a crap pinset and crap fruits (compared to a full colonized spawn) and thats my personal experience, so I dunno where all these people are getting good fruits from "partially colonized" substrate, but if it works for you, then by all means

 

[nn-DMT]

As someone who's been growing shrooms for 4 yrs.... (Hope no one gets the idea I'm trying to bash)

I've honestly never had a problem with overlay. I've always let full colonize (and used to even let go for longer)


It totally depends on the substrate your using (as I didn't read the tek your using I dunno what it calls for, but it sounds [just from what I'm reading here] that it has some useless info IMHO) and how well that substrate can retain its nutrients. Once the myc is fully colonized, dunking it in water (I just use tap water from my sink even) shouldn't harm it. I say shouldn't because I've only had a few bad things happen whilst dunking (block breaking/not being as "sterile" as I should have been) If your RH is to high, it can actualy be a detriment to the myc (if you start to see water droplets you have to much, im assuming your using cubes?) Dunking after every flush, isn't necessary; however, if you don't your gonna be very T/Oed when your myc doesn't produce much and you have to wait that much longer until you get fruits again)



Like I said before, dunking will not hurt a fully colonized mycelium spawn. Unless you dunk for longer than 24hrs or in dirty water (I dunno about the 24hr thing as I dunk usually 14hrs or so). An easy way to dunk with bulk is to just fill the container your substrate is in to the top with water, and then tilt the excess out after said time.

Honestly if I were you I'd do the rez effect tech.... Its simple:

1:1 spawn WBS/Verm. Mix in tub, cover top with foil, poke holes for FAE and put in inc chamber for about a week (or until myc is fully colonized) and then move right into your FC.

I've tried many ways, and this is by far the simplest bulk method I've ever come across.

The only thing I can say about fruiting before full colonization is a crap pinset and crap fruits (compared to a full colonized spawn) and thats my personal experience, so I dunno where all these people are getting good fruits from "partially colonized" substrate, but if it works for you, then by all means

well I will be using rye berries as spawn, horse poo as the substrate. based on the research I have done, poo has an abundance of nutrients and produces the biggest, most potent fruits. The rye will be fully colonized when introduced to the poo. I don't think that under-colonization will be a problem. It will be fully colonized, I just wasn't sure if the very top layer of substrate needed to be fully colonized.

Also, please check out the tek so we can be on the same page. It's a sticky in the mushrooms section here. Thanks for your input on this matter.

edit: as far as dunking goes, I will just use discretion which I know may not work out for the best but I'm just trying to learn what works for me and since I'm using rye/poo, I think it will retain more water than WBS/verm, which may or may not render dunking unnecessary. I will just have to wait andd see.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

The rye will be fully colonized when introduced to the poo. I don't think that under-colonization will be a problem. It will be fully colonized, I just wasn't sure if the very top layer of substrate needed to be fully colonized.

Yea...just for the record, I never said the grain shouldn't be fully colonized (that's actually the best way to contam your BS/casing, imo)...this looks good to me. For those doubting, look at any of the pictorials scattered around the interwebz. I haven't seen any pics of a completely colonized top layer of casing/BS. I'm not saying it won't work, just that I've never seen/heard of following such a procedure. Mushrooms will grow just about anywhere and through a whole host of procedures. IIRC, someone over at shroomery (think it was RR, but not sure) inoculated a sugar-water drenched bible and successfully fruited. Now those truly would be the food of the gods :lol:

 

[Ellis D'Empty]

well I will be using rye berries as spawn, horse poo as the substrate. based on the research I have done, poo has an abundance of nutrients and produces the biggest, most potent fruits.

Yea Hpoo/Cpoo is def. a big nutri-holder xD I use Hpoo myself (as its abundant where I live) The example above was just an outline.


Also, please check out the tek so we can be on the same page. It's a sticky in the mushrooms section here. Thanks for your input on this matter.
Well I am reading it it looks pretty decent so far, but you have to learn how to innovate your own ideas (as I see you already are)

edit: as far as dunking goes, I will just use discretion which I know may not work out for the best but I'm just trying to learn what works for me and since I'm using rye/poo, I think it will retain more water than WBS/verm, which may or may not render dunking unnecessary. I will just have to wait andd see.

I can't comment on this, as I see no logical point to not dunk. As the more water your substrate has the bigger/thicker your shrooms will be. But to each his own You'll learn.

 

[bringeroflight]

Snozzle, you've never seen a grower let a bulk substrate colonize completely? (I would never do the same with a casing layer BTW)

We're on total opposite ends of the spectrum here, yet we're both claiming excellent results. That ought to ease the OP's worries, since it shows you something about how easy growing really is

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Snozzle, you've never seen a grower let a bulk substrate colonize completely?

When using a casing layer, sure...but not (at least not to my recollection) if fruiting without a casing layer...in those situations I've always seen it treated like a casing; where you want that nice even layer of myc poking up through the top layer of BS. I use verm/coir or verm/coir/coffee grounds for BS and have always treated it similar to a casing, as far as when to initiate pinning, with great results. But yea, I agree with you, cubie growing is sooo much simpler than many people make it out to be (and I think contaminants are an overblown issue...as long as you take a decent number of precautions, you really don't have to go over the top unless you're doing G2G or agar or other "advanced" methods).