questions about syrian rue & chaliponga

[cheiron]

I'm making my first steps on the path of home-brewing ayahuasca in all its variations.

I have had some good experiences with the chaliponga & caapi brew, but now trying to make something of the syrian rue & chaliponga combination. I have been reading and searching on the internet&the forum here, and i do find some information, but some information seems to contradict or varies a lot, so i was hoping some of the more experienced members overhere could enlighten me a little bit.

I'll describe the process i've come to settle on first, trying to boil 2 doses:

Process untill now
I took about 35 grams of chaliponga, as about 17 grams seems a good single dose in my earlier experiences for one session. (edit: this turned out to be way too much. 10 grams for a single dose is more realistic, if your MAOI is right) I took a pan, put in all the chaliponga, added about 1 liter of water and about three tablespoons of white vinegar. I boiled this for about half an hour, and poured of the liquid.

The again, chaliponga leaves, 1 fresh liter of water, 3 tablespoons of white vinegar. Then I also added 8 grams of shredded syrian rue. (as I found 3 grams to be about one dose, and a little bit to be added when boiling, so i figured out 4 gram for one dose would do). Again boiling for about half an hour, then pouring of the liquid, this time through a cotton cloth to filter the syrian rue.

Then, for the last time, boiling the chaliponga & syrian rue, with 1 liter of fresh water & 3 tablespoons of white vinegar.

The first to liquid extractions i started to boil already to reduce the amount of liquid, because i had about 1,5 liter and want to bring the whole thing down to about 80 ml in the end

Questions about the process
alright, now the questions. I read that it would be more potent to keep the rue and chaliponga apart from eachother, and to drink them separate. Is there anyone who has experimented with both (seperate & together) and has some opinion about it from first hand experience?

further; some sources say, that boiling doesnt reduce the psychoactivity. Other sources say the opposite, that boiling damages the alkaloids. Anyone has something intelligent about that to say?

about the vingar: i find amounts of vinegar ranging from none, to 1 tablespoon/liter to 600 ml vinegar/liter. Anyone experiences with that?

And , at last, maybe anyone has something to say i just didnt think of ?

 

[cheiron]

I drank 1/3 of the result. It was extremely foul tasting; so that will be less or even no vinegar. And it was extremely strong. Damn that was a trip...

 

[Metanoia]

I haven't used rue as a MAOI before, in tea form at least. I do use chaliponga for my ayahuasca brews and really enjoy it. Even more so than chacruna in fact.

About the amount of vinegar and boiling...

I use only a very small amount of vinegar or none at all. When I use none I do an extra boil or two though, just to make sure the material is spent. I found too much vinegar makes it extremely nasty and the gag reflex kicks in.

Boiling doesn't effect the potency at all in my experience. I don't use extreme heat, however. A high simmer is good enough.

 

[cheiron]

The chaliponga is interesting indeed... It was the fourth time i drank it. Yet this time it lasted very very long. Like i drank one cup at 21:00, and still wasnt down at about 3:00 am... Maybe the difference in preparing this time, maybe the vinegar, maybe the dmt/5-meo-dmt ratio... Anyway, in my four years of ayahuasca drinking, this was one of the most intense experiences of all. At least top 5....

About the vinegar, i will settle for less or maybe better, with a lemon...

And good to hear about the boiling, sometimes confusion these conflicting info found...

 

[BecometheOther]

Cheiron i combined rue and chaliponga several times, and also found it to be super intense to the extreme, and lasting 12+ hours hard tripping.

This happened everytime i combined the two.

Now these were positive and good experiences though, very intense, but not in a way that was undesirable, but i agree that chapliponga + rue is earth shattering in a way that ayahuasca+ chaliponga just is not. Perhaps some extra alks in the rue interact with some in the chaliponga...

Either way congrats on this one, a combo not for the faint of heart!

 

[cheiron]

This happened everytime i combined the two.

That's very interesting to hear... I was thinking it might have been something on the level of potent chaliponga or more effective brewing due to the vinegar. Yet, the combination might be the essential thing aswell...

I have been wondering if the long lasting effects are due to the 5-meo-dmt, as for what i read on erowid about it, my adventures had definitely a 5-meo-dmt glow over it. It has been a long time since i was convinced i had gone totally mad; but with this combo, i arrived at that place again the madness was in the knowing that the insights are closer to reality than the assumed 'normal' ontology, combined with the insight that it is impossible to function with these insights (like, for an extended time, and really beyond the +4h after ingestion, i kept on shifting in and out different realities, i was lying in bed, yet at the same time driving my car, being in situations 10 years in the past or in the future, talking to friends, coming back to my bed, etc etc. We live in multiple realities, simultaneous...). Plus the extreme long duration; where i normally hit baseline in like 2 hours, still tripping that hard after 5 hours made me wonder, what the fuck has happened to me....

Earthshattering, indeed. And in the end, it was good, though...

I have also been wondering, if there is something about combining two plants that exist so far away from eachother. One plant is tuned to the rainforest, the other is tuned to the desert. So, on a chemical level as well as on a spiritual level, this might contribute to the intense effects, but thats just some wild guessing on my part

 

[cheiron]

i combined rue and chaliponga several times

Just wondering: what where the amounts of rue & chaliponga in your brew? You used vinegar/acid? cooking times?

 

[Bancopuma]

Thanks for sharing this, has prompted me to get brewing. A few years ago I had an experience with Syrian Rue and chaliponga that we very brief but immersive and incredible, I've never forgotten it. Want to explore more of these botanical realms.

 

[cheiron]

I have been experimenting with dosages and I have come to settle for this recipe:

11 grams of Syrian Rue
30 grams of Chaliponga

Boil in water on light simmer for 30 min, poor off water while filtering through a cotton cloth.

The scrape of the Rue and boil the Rue and Chaliponga again for 30 min.

Repeat a third time.

I just let out the vinegar / lemon. It tasted extremely foul, and yes it was stronger but there is something like too strong

With the above recipe, i boil the result in, till i leave about 500 ml total fluid.
This is enough for a couple of sessions, a small sipp (50 ml) will do.

 

[Jees]

I second you guys, chali + rue, kind of an enduring bitchy feline wild side of insanity visit. Cherion I understand your dosing advise, to keep it on a leash is a sane move.

 

[cheiron]

chali + rue, kind of an enduring bitchy feline wild side of insanity visit

Yeah, i noticed that the first time
Any idea why this combination is so insanly strong? I have been wondering if it is the 5meo-dmt, or maybe even some alkaloid interaction creating a third compound, but thats just some wild hypothesis.

(the first brew , I used it later, diluted it with water 50/50 and I took half of the dose I did the first time, so that was a 1/4th of the first dosage; this was still pretty strong...)

Anyway, i found that with simply lower dosages, it is managable and pretty interesting and i kind of like it. It can be strong and intense, but has some equally deep teachings to offer...

 

[Jees]

...It can be strong and intense, but has some equally deep teachings to offer...

It learned me to understand how female energy sometimes is, no joking. How females often sweep the floor with linear logic values no matter how true they look, and in place of that ride a (wild) wave that has a very particular intensity to offer, one that laughs in the face of linearity and logic. An intensity that squeezes/drinks the energy out of mental constructs and drop them as wasted. Very powerful, playful, ironic, young, live the freaking bit out of every second kind of attitude. I dare to state from that moment I started to understand women better, how women often are more after the energy of what they say, rather than after the truth of what they say. From that moment I could (partly?) see/feel trough their blue-print and my relationships to all women in my life got improved a lot.

I realize some of the above will shock people, sorry for that, but it is the way it came to me. There is NO pejorative toward women, in contrast I honor the fantastic way they plow trough life with an intensity that was foreign to me before.

Chali gave me some androgene-energy-quality to some degree, while staying man. I guess chali awoke my female part, which has nothing to do with change of sexual preference, but change in perception of how to live the moment and it's ingredients. I did not loose my masculine logic/linearity, but discovered a different way to experience life on top of it, one that analyzes less and trade that for more intensity. I don't know if all this makes any sense to the reader, but final point = I live better together with women now, as if they feel I am able to "bridge" to their ways in extend.

 

[cheiron]

An intensity that squeezes/drinks the energy out of mental constructs and drop them as wasted.

You could say that She is very powerful, but i seem to have a good connection with her. Slowly perfecting my brewingteks helps also a lot. I have made small changes still, and now have the following (essentially the same as posted before, just cutting the rue down to 9 instead of 11 grams)

9 grams of Syrian Rue
30 grams of Chaliponga

Boil in water on light simmer for 30 min, poor off water while filtering through a cotton cloth.Then scrape of the Rue and boil the Rue and Chaliponga again for 30 min.Repeat a third time.I just leave out the vinegar / lemon.

The main difference is, it just tastes better and is less harsh on the stomach.
I boil it down to 500 ml, but i'm going to try to reduce that a little bit more., maybe 400 ml. This recipe gives me the ability to drink like 2 or 3 cups during an evening and really finetune the desired effect.

 

[endlessness]

Thanks for sharing your notes with us.

Just to answer one of the questions, boiling does NOT affect tryptamine content negatively. What can happen is that harmalas interconvert, so harmine could turn into harmaline, and then into THH. It is unsure how long it takes for such conversion, probably many many hours. In any case that wouldn't be negative since none of those are 'bad'... THH has some effects but it does not have significant MAOI activities, but I doubt you'll ever boil for so long that you get only THH and very little harmine/harmaline, since even in samples that were boiled for endless hours still have shown a lot of harmine. So in general, boiling is totally safe and you dont have to worry about it.

One other thing, there is no 5-MeO-DMT in chaliponga leaves. There have been a few analysis of chaliponga so far, none of them showed any significant amount of 5-MeO-DMT in leaves, only one analysis shown traces in stems (and subsequently got misused as a reference for '5-meo content in chali') and nothing of 5-MeO in any of the other analysis, including my own test which has only shown DMT, on a commercially available batch that people claimed had '5 meo effects'

 

[cheiron]

yeah, even if the boiling has some diminishing effect, the brew i get is strong enough But good to now it doesnt harms the alkaloids that quickly.

And of the 5-meo-dmt; my knowledge comes just from what i find on the internet, so i'm no expert. I found on the wikipedia however:

The plant stores the alkaloids N,N-DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, and N-methyltetrahydro-beta-carboline in its leaves and stems.[1] Leaf samples were found to be 0.17-1.75% N,N-DMT,[1] but only trace amounts of N-methyltetrahydro-beta-carboline occur in the leaves.[2] The leaves also store methyltryptamine and trace amounts of bufotenin.[1][2]

so maybe it is the methyltryptamine of even the bufotenin that gives chaliponga her special flavor.

For i have drunk ayahuasca for quite some time, always with the chacruna&caapi mix, and the chaliponga&rue mix has definitely her own character, which asks for a careful approach...

 

[Bancopuma]

I made a brew according to this recipe, around 11g Syrian rue and 30g Chaliponga, added a handful for caapi for good measure, and brewed with a little vinegar, and produced a little under 500ml after brewing, but topped this up to 500ml afterwards to make dosing more accurate. Tasted pretty fowl but drank it down and kept it down for a good while.

I ate some full spectrum Syrian rue and caapi extract and 40 minutes or so later drank 100ml of the brew. This resulted in strong MAOI intoxication but no signs of Chaliponga influence, I know it can take a few hours to kick in so I was patient. A few hours later I had a top up of around 75ml. This brew has been in my fridge for a weeks now, and I was sure to heat it a bit to evaporate any alcohol that may have formed through fermentation. However I noticed when I was pouring the remained of the brew back into the bottle, very little remained, so more water must have evaporated than I had anticipated, so the brew must have been more concentrated and potent if anything, so part of me was thinking maybe I had consumed too much in one go. I was feeling strongly under the influence of the beta carbolines and was feeling very relaxed and getting some visual patterning in the darkness, and I ate a little food to try and get my metabolism fired up (the old enterohepatic circulation) as this had been highly effective my one and only time when I strongly but briefly experienced Chaliponga. No signs though of the Chaliponga until I eventually fell asleep a few hours later.

I'm wondering what could have happened here? I'm very intrigued to journey with Chaliponga so will persevere with this but I'm surprised I didn't feel any influence at all of the plant in my brew.

 

[Jees]

Dunno if this equals to you, but my first chali sessions were dull, then I used some grams for few days in a row, since then I got kind of sensitized. It was all same bag of leaves.

 

[cheiron]

Don't know what's happing. A difference might be, you don't boil them together.

I heard some other people speculate that the combination, like, boiling them together in the same water, might give some unknown alkaloid synergy. I don't know if that's true, might just be the DMT or even 5-MEO-DMT on its own.

And, did you boil the whole three times for at least 30 min? Might be of influence as well.

Furthermore, i am planning to reduce the total a bit further down to maybe 300 or 350 ml instead of 500 to make it a bit more potent. It's just, after I really overdosed on the chaliponga i kept it on the safe side

 

[Bancopuma]

Hey thanks for the feedback. Interesting to hear of the sensitization.

I did boil them them together, and did the three washes, think I simmered for 45 mins (ish) each time.

I'm surprised I couldn't detect any signature of the Chaliponga, but I will persevere as I feel a strong desire to explore this plant.

 

[cheiron]

Hmmm strange....
I actually had my first noticable effects with chaliponga after the third time, i guess.
I blamed it on my brewing skills, however, it might be some sensitization process, who knows

For me, I came to like the mix. It really can be a very very rough ride if you overdose, but to get to know the plant is very worthwhile.