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Salt and freebase
- Thread starter sonofsnow
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Tnx for that:wink: . But i was wondering more in the way of what a salt and freebase form is.
When doing an extraction i have understood it in this way pls correct me if i am wrong.
There are two ways of extracting DMT. A/B and STB.
In an A/B you pull the DMT salt into an acidified solution that you later make to freebase by Basifing the solution and pull the freebase with a NPS.
In a STB you, as it says go right to the freebase form and pull the freebase with an NPS
Then question im wondering, Is it possible to pull the salt out instead of the freebase? what is the proporties of the salt, is the salt so unstable that it will be lost?
I do appoligize if i ask stupid questions but I really have browsed this wonderfull forum and googled extensevly to understand the wonders of extractions. And Somethings i just cant see to comprehend therefore i ask hoping a friendly soul can give me an answer
When doing an extraction i have understood it in this way pls correct me if i am wrong.
There are two ways of extracting DMT. A/B and STB.
In an A/B you pull the DMT salt into an acidified solution that you later make to freebase by Basifing the solution and pull the freebase with a NPS.
In a STB you, as it says go right to the freebase form and pull the freebase with an NPS
Then question im wondering, Is it possible to pull the salt out instead of the freebase? what is the proporties of the salt, is the salt so unstable that it will be lost?
I do appoligize if i ask stupid questions but I really have browsed this wonderfull forum and googled extensevly to understand the wonders of extractions. And Somethings i just cant see to comprehend therefore i ask hoping a friendly soul can give me an answer
now that is a valid question, while it is common knowledge that it wouldn't work, at least not very well, it is not clearly posted or at least not easy to find.
The thing is that since the salt forms are water soluble you are going to extract everything that is soluble in water out of the DMT containing plant, mostly MHRB. This fine for mimosahuasca (ayahuasca using mimosa) brews but for anything pure or smokable it really isn't going to work.
The fact is that however un-natural solvents and bases may seem they are EXCELLENT for extracting DMT and DMT-like compounds in MHRB.
If one is to go for mimosahuasca then natural water brewing is going to work fine
If a pure product if the goal then a base an a solvent will need to be used (unless a new metod is discovered).
But using vinegar, lime and d-limonene is a method which is food-safe, though xylene will work the same and naptha will work too but not get ALL the alkaloids. (It's all in Q21Q21's tek in my signature)
Cheers.
The thing is that since the salt forms are water soluble you are going to extract everything that is soluble in water out of the DMT containing plant, mostly MHRB. This fine for mimosahuasca (ayahuasca using mimosa) brews but for anything pure or smokable it really isn't going to work.
The fact is that however un-natural solvents and bases may seem they are EXCELLENT for extracting DMT and DMT-like compounds in MHRB.
If one is to go for mimosahuasca then natural water brewing is going to work fine
If a pure product if the goal then a base an a solvent will need to be used (unless a new metod is discovered).
But using vinegar, lime and d-limonene is a method which is food-safe, though xylene will work the same and naptha will work too but not get ALL the alkaloids. (It's all in Q21Q21's tek in my signature)
Cheers.
I've wondered this same question, can you isolate the salt-form of dmt from the bark without changing the salt form or converting to freebase?
I think the main reason this isn't yet possible is because people aren't exactly sure what salt form DMT occurs as within the bark, nor the properties of the salt form.
I have heard from others on the board that it is most likely in the form of DMT tannate. I don't know how this can be verified.
In any case, we know the salt form that is present within the bark is polar(like most DMT salts), as it dissolves within water. So we can probably assume that it would precipitate out in a non-polar solvent. It may work, it may not work, but I think the Acetone Phluxing technique phlux developed for crashing alks out of acidified water may be a method that makes use of this property. If you find a solvent that is more non-polar than water, but is still soluble within water, maybe you could decrease the solubility of the natural salt form within water and cause it to crash out? Maybe, and I don't know if this would work either, but maybe you could create a resin from the mimosa tea by evaporating it, and then take the resin and try to wash it with some non-polar solvents to end up with a pure form of the natural salt.
I think the main reason this isn't yet possible is because people aren't exactly sure what salt form DMT occurs as within the bark, nor the properties of the salt form.
I have heard from others on the board that it is most likely in the form of DMT tannate. I don't know how this can be verified.
In any case, we know the salt form that is present within the bark is polar(like most DMT salts), as it dissolves within water. So we can probably assume that it would precipitate out in a non-polar solvent. It may work, it may not work, but I think the Acetone Phluxing technique phlux developed for crashing alks out of acidified water may be a method that makes use of this property. If you find a solvent that is more non-polar than water, but is still soluble within water, maybe you could decrease the solubility of the natural salt form within water and cause it to crash out? Maybe, and I don't know if this would work either, but maybe you could create a resin from the mimosa tea by evaporating it, and then take the resin and try to wash it with some non-polar solvents to end up with a pure form of the natural salt.
You mean by doing this for getting rid of some fats and impurities, right?
Entryptomancer wrote in Extraction Overview
Isnt it possible to use this step some times to clean, then use phlux`s tek to get goodies?
SWIM must admit that he is just starting to scratch the surface of extractions so pardon my ignorance.
I dont understand what do you guys want to achieve? why NOT use a base and then pull the alkaloids with a non-polar? sonofsnow, the process you are quoting from entropy is called a defat, and imo it is unnecessary and wasteful at least for mimosa extraction, as you would basically have to use a lot of those solvents to remove a bit of fat which isnt even a very problematic issue with mimosa. A recrystalization of the final product is much more effective as it cleans up a lot of dmt with just a bit of solvent.
sonofsnow, if you want to ingest orally, dmt in its salt form is recommended. You can simply boil the plant material in water 3x, filtering/decanting and adding fresh water each time, put together the liquids and discard the solids. Like this you'll have your alkaloids in solution and they will be in salt form. This will also contain some tannins and other things that may be a bit too harsh on the stomach (you can look up 'egg white tannin removal' which will help a bit with diminishing bad taste and nausea, but will give you all the effects. Or if you want a purer product for ingestion, you can also base the solution, pull with a non-polar solvent (like limonene or naphtha, but imo better limonene), and then salt again the limonene with for example FASI or FASW or vinegar and dry that, leaving you with purer salt alkaloids (though vinegar salting will remain as a goo, not solidify).
if you want to smoke the dmt, you'll have to freebase that.
I hope you are understanding a bit better.. keep reading
Teks like vovins or others in the nexus WIKI explain what is happening in each part of the process, so read many of them to get a general feeling
sonofsnow, if you want to ingest orally, dmt in its salt form is recommended. You can simply boil the plant material in water 3x, filtering/decanting and adding fresh water each time, put together the liquids and discard the solids. Like this you'll have your alkaloids in solution and they will be in salt form. This will also contain some tannins and other things that may be a bit too harsh on the stomach (you can look up 'egg white tannin removal' which will help a bit with diminishing bad taste and nausea, but will give you all the effects. Or if you want a purer product for ingestion, you can also base the solution, pull with a non-polar solvent (like limonene or naphtha, but imo better limonene), and then salt again the limonene with for example FASI or FASW or vinegar and dry that, leaving you with purer salt alkaloids (though vinegar salting will remain as a goo, not solidify).
if you want to smoke the dmt, you'll have to freebase that.
I hope you are understanding a bit better.. keep reading
Teks like vovins or others in the nexus WIKI explain what is happening in each part of the process, so read many of them to get a general feeling
dmt in acidic solution is a salt and therefore water soluble, dmt in basic solution is a freebase and not water soluble but rather soluble in non-polar solvents (like limonene, naphtha, etc). Non polars separate from water like oil, it stays as a layer on top. By playing with the pH (adding an acid or a base) you make the dmt move from one place to the other while most of other impurities dont, and then you separate the layers by pippeting/separatory funnel/decanting, so you are using these properties to isolate dmt.
thats the basic of how these extractions work
thats the basic of how these extractions work
endlessness said:
I think a reduction of the steps needed to end up with a pure salt form is what is trying to be achieved. If you look at it, the dmt is already in a salt form, and if you would like to end up with a salt form, there is no logical reason (other than we don't know how to do it, or the natural salt form is hygroscopic and undesirable) to not just isolate the salt form that is naturally present within the bark.
If this were possible, I'd imagine it would reduce the chemicals needed (no need to buy acids for the salt precipitation, and water would be your main solvent) and probably simplify the process a bit. That's all assuming that this is possible, and the natural salt form worth obtaining.
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