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Salt vs. Freebase vs. Fumarate Chemistry

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codeofomerta

codeofomerta

Rising Star
I can't seem to find this. 1.What is the chemical (molecular) difference inbetween a salt, freebase, and a fumarate? 2.Are they part of a system that categorizes every substance(like liquid, solid, and gas), or do they just describe certain substances? I'm not sure that second question makes sense...

3.I understand that salts have higher boiling points than freebases, but WHY is this?

EDIT: OK I just checked the wiki(I had been using yahoo search) and now I have new questions.

4.The wiki says that salts are simply acidic chemicals... that isn't right is it? Aren't salts what forms when an acid and a base are mixed?

5.The wiki says that DMT fumarate is 1 fumaric acid molecule and 2 DMT molecules. Does that mean I only need to care about it if I use fumaric acid?
 
Did you check the FAQ? The "where to start" extraction question has a bit of an overview.

When you say "salt" it depends what do you mean. A normal salt, like lets say table salt, is indeed part of the results of mixing an acid+base: NaOH + HCL = H2O + NaCL

Now an alkaloid salt is a bit different. An alkaloid in high pH (or basic) conditions will be in freebase form, so it will just be the pure molecule (for example DMT). Now when it is in acid condition, the alkaloid will be protonated, meaning it will get an ion from the acid, and will form an alkaloid salt. So for example DMT + vinegar (acetic acid) = DMT acetate, DMT + fumaric acid = DMT fumarate, DMT + lemon (citric acid) = DMT citrate, etc.. So it will be a bit heavier molecule than freebase because it will have the acid ion attached to it.

When an alkaloid is in freebase form, it will generally be soluble in non-polar solvents (such as naphtha/limonene/etc) and not soluble in water. When it is in salt form, it will generally be soluble in water and not in non-polar solvents.

And yes you only need to know about DMT fumarate if you are using fumaric acid. And even if you were, you dont necessarily have to know the molecular weight of it unless you want to make exact calculations on the DMT weight, but for practical normal purposes its not necessary.

(this is a simplified explanations because there are exceptions, some alkaloids like psilocybin have a bit different molecular structures/charges, so they dont form salts like DMT does for example, so you dont extract it like you do DMT. Also there are some technicalities regarding ions in an acidic acqueous solution, they arent already attached to the alkaloid IIRC, they only do when its not in solution anymore (for example when you evaporate all the water to be left with the alkaloid salt), but that makes no difference for you in practice, its just chemical details)

Hope it helps
 
Thank you!

However can you clarify three points: So can it be salt DMT acetate or freebase DMT acetate? If not then is the DMT acetate broken down during basification? Where is the DMT while the solution is basified(as it wouldn't be soluble in water while it is a freebase)?
 
freebase is freebase, the acetic ion reacts with the base. So for example dmt acetate + sodium carbonate = dmt freebase + sodium acetate (which is an inactive salt and will stay in solution, or if you do the dry freebasing and pull with IPA/Acetone/Etc, it wont be pulled with the solvent, so you separate dmt from it and from any excess sodium carbonate too)

The dmt is probably somehow precipitating in the mimosa solution if thats what you ask (when you add the base you can see colors changing. At least partly this must be dmt starting to precipitate). But the problem is, due to other impurities and some other reasons too advanced for us to know atm, DMT doesnt seem to precipitate well out of mimosa solution, there have been a few attempts at water-only tek without using a non-polar solvent to pull the dmt from the water, but they didnt work well.

Nevertheless if its a relatively pure solution of a dmt salt (like lets say dmt fumarate dissolved in water) , then if you add a base like sodium carbonate, the dmt precipitates straight out of the water and you just wait a few days and filter. Check BLAB tek as it describes this towards the end in the "fumarate conversion"
 
endlessness said:
When you say "salt" it depends what do you mean. A normal salt, like lets say table salt, is indeed part of the results of mixing an acid+base: NaOH + HCL = H2O + NaCL

Now an alkaloid salt is a bit different. An alkaloid in high pH (or basic) conditions will be in freebase form, so it will just be the pure molecule (for example DMT). Now when it is in acid condition, the alkaloid will be protonated, meaning it will get an ion from the acid, and will form an alkaloid salt. So for example DMT + vinegar (acetic acid) = DMT acetate, DMT + fumaric acid = DMT fumarate, DMT + lemon (citric acid) = DMT citrate, etc.. So it will be a bit heavier molecule than freebase because it will have the acid ion attached to it.

When an alkaloid is in freebase form, it will generally be soluble in non-polar solvents (such as naphtha/limonene/etc) and not soluble in water. When it is in salt form, it will generally be soluble in water and not in non-polar solvents.

And yes you only need to know about DMT fumarate if you are using fumaric acid. And even if you
Click to expand...

Endlessness: Thanks for that! I too was confused about normal salts versus alkaloid/acidic salts.
 
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