Salt

[ChemisTryptaMan]

I wanted to mention here quickly that I am in the middle of a STB tek where I follow the same proportions of Lye:Naptha:Water:MHRB. In this case I am using 100 g MHRB. I had recently been thinking about the effect of the ionic strength of the aqueous layer in the efficiency of the reaction. I decided to add 150g of crude salt to the mix to see if more spice is pushed into the NPS. I havent yet added the Naptha, but I just checked the jars and in each of them there is a very thin(about a half of a millimeter) layer of oil floating on top of the solution. This leads me to believe that the plant oils are being forced out of the solution. It stands to reason then that all non-polar molecules are less soluble in the aqueous mix. I hope this translates into more efficient pulls but now fear an issue with the oil content. I will let all of you know how my pulls turn out, but think this may be a valuable addition to the already simple to use STB tek. With an A/B tek where no oil is present, I think adding salt to the mix may turn out to be even more beneficial. I have done this before with much smaller amounts of salt but never enough to raise the ionic strength enough to make a considerable difference. Thoughts?


Edit: I should have left a few jars without the salt just to compare. The closest thing to a control that I have is the last few jars I only added 90 to 100g instead of the 150g I added to the rest of them.

 

[cyb]

Link to 'Salt' Tek...:d

Cybs Hybrid ATB 'Salt' Tek...Designed for newbies. - STB - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[Tequiza]

Link to 'Salt' Tek...:d

Cybs Hybrid ATB 'Salt' Tek...Designed for newbies. - STB - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Amazing. This completely changes the way I extract now. You all deserve some serious credit. Thanks!

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

I havent checked this thread in a while but I am extremely enthused that others are taking my advice and adding salt to their teks. I was so surprised that my theory showed itself to be so effective and wanted instantly to share it with this whole community. Thank you to those who have tried this and seen what a difference it can make. I think A/B teks have just as much to gain from adding salt as STB teks do, just o long as your tek is wet you are forcing a change in the partition coefficient of the freebase spice. Love you all.

CTM

 

[cyb]

It's all down to you dude...you da man..

 

[*oneironaut*]

This thread deserves to live forever, so I'm going to pump some life in to it but really I have a question for the salt masters. Do you think there might be a benefit to soaking the rootbark in saturated salt water for a freeze/thaw lysing step. Thick-light was doing a lysing step in his tek and I liked the idea of it, so I was wondering if 1) wouldn't the salt help make the bark freeze faster and colder and would that do anythin to help the lysing process and 2) would it help push out the alks without an aqeous solution to push it into something (nap)?

 

[cyb]

^^^ I think saline is relatively neutral PH so the job would be better done with Acidic or Alkaline solutions.
Like your thinking though...:thumb_up:

 

[Infundibulum]

This thread deserves to live forever, so I'm going to pump some life in to it but really I have a question for the salt masters. Do you think there might be a benefit to soaking the rootbark in saturated salt water for a freeze/thaw lysing step. Thick-light was doing a lysing step in his tek and I liked the idea of it, so I was wondering if 1) wouldn't the salt help make the bark freeze faster and colder and would that do anythin to help the lysing process and 2) would it help push out the alks without an aqeous solution to push it into something (nap)?

Salt will make the bark to freeze colder, but not faster. Salt will impede lysis; if lysis happens because cells swell and break apart, salt will only assist in making cells totally devoid of water, or "leathery" (thus no lysis).

Salt (as in sodium chloride, table salt) does not affect pH. It would also not help push alkaloids out.

 

[*oneironaut*]

^^^ I think saline is relatively neutral PH so the job would be better done with Acid of Alkaline solutions.
Like your thinking though...:thumb_up:

I figured as much, but as I'm an artist not a chemist, I figured I'd at least ask since I was pondering this last night at 3 am when I woke up from a dream where I was amongst a group of people looking on (what assume were you fellow nexians) and was proving my worthyness by progressively smoking larger doses of D... maybe I should stay of the Nexus before bedtime anyway, thanks for the great info and tek work :thumb_up: :thumb_up: :thumb_up: :thumb_up:

 

[relent]

I wanted to add something to this thread and mention how salting 'exhausted' solutions I kept around in jugs yielded nearly the same amounts as initial reactions.
I was having an issue with a fresh batch, which had emulsified and no amount of salt was helping go break this emulsion layer. I ulimately added a quarter volume of pre-basified water, and another quarter of saline water, dissolved to saturation beforehand. Successful results, but I have not weighed anything yet.

I will be trying to work with the leftovers of an old drytek which had less than impressive results. Rather than becoming black following lime basification, the source material became brown and had very low yield.
Presently it is a very hard, concrete like layer. I will be trying to rehydrate, freeze-lyse, and use in an a/b or arb 'wet' tek, along with this salting method.
As a layman observation, the salt's effectiveness at altering the coefficient seemso be directly proportional to the basic pH of the mixture.
Would this process work in other extractions involving alkaloids other than dmt without potentially forming byproducts? I'm thinking harmalas, perhaps LSA (polar/nonpolar extract) it psilocybin?

Great find, guys.

 

[thirdeyeopen86]

@cyb

Can I do everything the same as Vovin's TEK(A/B) except before I basify the solution add salt to it? I don't use any less than a 100g of MHRB for an extraction. I read on here to use 30g of salt in 100ml of de-ionised water for 50g of MHRB. Should I use that or double it since I'm using double the MHRB?

ChemisTryptaman said he adds it when he is adding the lye. Since I'm using Vovin's TEK(A/B), so should I add the salt after the acid baths before I defat? He says the salt will push more plant oils out of the mix. I'm worried that if I add the salt after the defat, before I basify the solution that it will pull out any remaining plant oils which could end up in the final freeze precipitation. This whole salting thing is new to me:grin:

 

[relent]

@cyb

Can I do everything the same as Vovin's TEK(A/B) except before I basify the solution add salt to it? I don't use any less than a 100g of MHRB for an extraction. I read on here to use 30g of salt in 100ml of de-ionised water for 50g of MHRB. Should I use that or double it since I'm using double the MHRB?

ChemisTryptaman said he adds it when he is adding the lye. Since I'm using Vovin's TEK(A/B), so should I add the salt after the acid baths before I defat? He says the salt will push more plant oils out of the mix. I'm worried that if I add the salt after the defat, before I basify the solution that it will pull out any remaining plant oils which could end up in the final freeze precipitation. This whole salting thing is new to me:grin:

I'll let cyb answer your question about the avisedness of salting, but it should be fine. But don't fret about oils in the freeze precip, they can be washed and recrystallized. Just avoid pulling any of the black basic water!

Best of luck.

 

[thirdeyeopen86]

Thanks relent!

I was wondering too does the purity of the salt make a difference? My main concern is I like to have everything as pure as possible or lab grade in other words. I was looking up different kinds of lab salt and came across to I'm considering.

There is Sodium chloride ACS reagent, ≥99.0% and then there is another Sodium chloride plant cell culture tested, ≥99.5%. The difference in the two is the second one has no trace element impurities. I can provide a link to a chart that compares the two and several others.

 

[cyb]

@cyb

Can I do everything the same as Vovin's TEK(A/B) except before I basify the solution add salt to it? I don't use any less than a 100g of MHRB for an extraction. I read on here to use 30g of salt in 100ml of de-ionised water for 50g of MHRB. Should I use that or double it since I'm using double the MHRB?

ChemisTryptaman said he adds it when he is adding the lye. Since I'm using Vovin's TEK(A/B), so should I add the salt after the acid baths before I defat? He says the salt will push more plant oils out of the mix. I'm worried that if I add the salt after the defat, before I basify the solution that it will pull out any remaining plant oils which could end up in the final freeze precipitation. This whole salting thing is new to me:grin:

Hi
Best to put in the salt After the acid and before or with the base.
The salt 'amplifies' the ionic strength of an Alkaline (basic) solution.
If you were to add it at the acid stage I would imagine that it would excite the ions in the acidic solution and want to turn it towards the alkaline direction.

There is really no need to do the defat stage with MHRB as it contains very little fats.
I think there is a disclaimer to Vovins tek somewhere explaining this.
As relent says above ^^don't worry about pulling extras...this can be cleaned later and sometimes it is preferable.
It is generally heat that causes more alks/lipids etc to be transferred ... especially the temp of the solvent (hotter=will saturate and hold more spice). (also the type of solvent used)
Also tap water is OK to use as any contaminants (miniscule) wont cross into the non polar solvent anyway.

50g-70g should be sufficient for 100g bark...it's about the amount of water its diluted in...not really about the amount of bark...just add more salt if in doubt. (Just as an indicator) Your solution should be watery and not sludgy (STB).

I was wondering too does the purity of the salt make a difference? My main concern is I like to have everything as pure as possible or lab grade in other words. I was looking up different kinds of lab salt and came across to I'm considering.

I have tried all sorts of salt from expensive pure flakes to 20c table salt containing anticaking agents. It made little difference...Salt (NaCl) is just Salt... so use whatever you feel comfortable with unless its heavily mixed with something else...no iodine for example.

Your first two pulls will be the most heavily saturated as the salt has the greatest effect at the start....later you can add more saline to the mix if you like.

Hope all that helps.
cyb

 

[thirdeyeopen86]

@cyb

Can I do everything the same as Vovin's TEK(A/B) except before I basify the solution add salt to it? I don't use any less than a 100g of MHRB for an extraction. I read on here to use 30g of salt in 100ml of de-ionised water for 50g of MHRB. Should I use that or double it since I'm using double the MHRB?

ChemisTryptaman said he adds it when he is adding the lye. Since I'm using Vovin's TEK(A/B), so should I add the salt after the acid baths before I defat? He says the salt will push more plant oils out of the mix. I'm worried that if I add the salt after the defat, before I basify the solution that it will pull out any remaining plant oils which could end up in the final freeze precipitation. This whole salting thing is new to me:grin:

Hi
Best to put in the salt After the acid and before or with the base.
The salt 'amplifies' the ionic strength of an Alkaline (basic) solution.
If you were to add it at the acid stage I would imagine that it would excite the ions in the acidic solution and want to turn it towards the alkaline direction.

There is really no need to do the defat stage with MHRB as it contains very little fats.
I think there is a disclaimer to Vovins tek somewhere explaining this.
As relent says above ^^don't worry about pulling extras...this can be cleaned later and sometimes it is preferable.
It is generally heat that causes more alks/lipids etc to be transferred ... especially the temp of the solvent (hotter=will saturate and hold more spice). (also the type of solvent used)
Also tap water is OK to use as any contaminants (miniscule) wont cross into the non polar solvent anyway.

50g-70g should be sufficient for 100g bark...it's about the amount of water its diluted in...not really about the amount of bark...just add more salt if in doubt. (Just as an indicator) Your solution should be watery and not sludgy (STB).

I was wondering too does the purity of the salt make a difference? My main concern is I like to have everything as pure as possible or lab grade in other words. I was looking up different kinds of lab salt and came across to I'm considering.

I have tried all sorts of salt from expensive pure flakes to 20c table salt containing anticaking agents. It made little difference...Salt (NaCl) is just Salt... so use whatever you feel comfortable with unless its heavily mixed with something else...no iodine for example.

Your first two pulls will be the most heavily saturated as the salt has the greatest effect at the start....later you can add more saline to the mix if you like.

Hope all that helps.
cyb

:d Thank you so much cyb! You have been very helpful and informative! I'm going to try not doing a defat this time when I give a go at it with salt. Thanks again all of you, especially cyb for taking the time to respond so thoroughly! Off to the lab! I will document my result and post them for you guys!

 

[ChemisTryptaMan]

Hello all, I had another idea about this topic that I thought was another simple way to up the ionic strength without adding anything but time. The plant material contains many proteins that in basic solution contain a charge of -1 per protein molecule. However, these proteins range in size from perhaps as few as 20 amino acids to as many as 50,000. When a protein molecule is heated in either acid or base, it is broken apart into its constituent amino acids. These amino acids will each carry a -1 charge in a basic solution. More charged molecules = more ionic strength. This is what we are looking for in our aqueous layer, very high ionic strength. I suggest that before any pulls are done on the solutions that they be heated either during the acid cook for A/B teks and after basifying and salting the mixture. If you let the solution react under warm conditions for several hours or even as long as 12 hours this would allow for more complete reaction. the proteins will slowly be torn apart. This could have a more drastic effect than the salt itself if there is enough protein in the mix. It may take more lye to reach the same pH levels but it will be only by a small amount if it proves to be true. I unfortunately cannot find any MHRB anywhere and will be waiting to find some before trying this myself.

 

[Kerberos]

i see that the Salt tec ends up with a 5% ish saline solution (30g salt in 700ml liquid) is this the optimum i should aim for in my STB extraction? eg 60g of salt in 1400 ml of liquid.

What are the saline percentages people have used and the results thereof. We could correlate this information into a table at some point?

I have just done a 50g STB Noman extraction with a yield of 1.4% and i have another 50g of the same bark i can salt to see the difference in yield. I will post pics and findings once i decide (with my fellow Nexians help) on a saline percentage to try.

Thank you

 

[cyb]

i see that the Salt tec ends up with a 5% ish saline solution (30g salt in 700ml liquid) is this the optimum i should aim for in my STB extraction? eg 60g of salt in 1400 ml of liquid.

What are the saline percentages people have used and the results thereof. We could correlate this information into a table at some point?

I have run the tek at double the saline content...ie. 60-70g per 50g bark in 700ml aqueous with no adverse effects (maybe a slight drop in yield but other variables were altered so not sure)

I'm not entirely sure if you can actually 'over salt'...A chart would be great at some point..

Moar Experimentation...Onwards

:thumb_up:

 

[Kerberos]

The higher the salt content the more the spice is pushed out into into the NPS.

So, what would happen if i basified my water and then added salt to saturation (30-35mg salt to 100ml water at room temperature) and then continued to extract as normal? The question i am trying to ask (badly) is do we have an idea of the optimum saline percentage. i use the term saline percentage as people like to use differing amounts of water for the same amount of bark.

Which is more important do you think, the saline percentage or the gram per gram ratio? :?

 

[cyb]

The question i am trying to ask (badly) is do we have an idea of the optimum saline percentage.

Not at the moment...we are all experimenting... feel free to try it out for yourself and report back.

 

[Kerberos]

OK that's me told. I think i will try the total saturation route as this should be the higher end of any data we are compiling. i will be doing this at the weekend so if this is a bad idea hopefully someone will chime in before i screw up!