Salting oxide out of Xylene?

[Winemaker]

So SWIM's got done the naptha extractions and he has a big jug of ACRB base soup. Because of the volume of what he has, he wants to get everything, including possible oxides. He thinks he may have oxides because he didn't do an acid soak/zinc redox, he did an STB.

So, reading on here that xylene can pick up oxides (and because the yield wasn't quite as expected) he's poured 750-odd ml of xylene into the jug and has been pouring it back and forth between another jug, to mix it up. He's going to do it quite a few times back and forth (each time it forms a bit of an emulsion, so the more he pours the more exposure the solvent gets, although the emulsion dies quickly).

Long story short, SWIM needs to confirm that DMT Oxide will indeed 'salt out' of the xylene using vinegar/water/ascorbic acid (ascorbic acid being a zinc substitute here). He knows that nn-DMT salts out, and has definitely made use of that property when processing fat-laden naptha that he didn't feel like evaporating. Works great.

Anyways, he searched the forums a bit and asked me to post the question as he couldn't find an answer, as the salt teks kept coming up.

Also, for easy reference, SWIM's looked at the main wiki and noticed that there's no clear indication of pH levels as to when DMT is salted and when it is freebased. He asked if somebody could make a note of that somewhere for the wiki?

Thanks!

 

[Entheogenerator]

What makes you think your bark contains DMT n-oxide? I have yet to see any analysis results on Acacia confusa root bark which indicate the presence of DMT n-oxide in any significant amount.

Yes, I'm pretty sure DMT n-oxide will salt out of solvents in the same way N,N-DMT will.

 

[Winemaker]

Well the process wasn't perfect. SWIM blended the bark but there were still some small-ish chunks, and he didn't base it strong enough to lyse the cell walls (something he didn't learn till after separating the liquid and solids. Cest la vie. But he also saved all the material so he can process further eventually).

So yield was lower than expected from that, but was significantly lower than it should have been. So he figured he'd try it. Also when blending, the material did get a little hot, so that may have oxidized some goodies.

But SWIM's got 5 gallons or so of soup so he figured before he cleans some drains, he may as well ensure he's got everything out of it, so he turned to the xylene. And he never took chemistry. So he knows what the process is and how to do it, but he really has no idea as to what is going on chemically, beyond the fact of what's happening. He can't say why the salt isn't soluble in naptha, or why the freebase is, he just knows the straight facts of whether it isn't or is

 

[Entheogenerator]

It seems to me that the whole oxidation thing is way overstated. I have used hot (not warm) water baths during extractions and have never had a problem with oxidation. I have also left DMT in non-airtight containers at room temperature for over a year and a half with no change in appearance or potency. Can DMT oxidize? Absolutely. Is it something that one needs to be very cautious in order to avoid? My experience would indicate that it isn't.

I would be willing to bet that most of your magic remains in the solid bark material, but it certainly doesn't hurt to do a few xylene pulls in order to recover whatever amount might be suspended in the basic aqueous solution.

Once you do finally perform another extraction on the bark, I might recommend you add some water then freeze and thaw it a couple of times to ensure full cell lysis before starting the extraction process.

 

[1ce]

I tried something after I was certain I exhausted my bark, and maybe you can get something helpful from it.

I added 3x the normal amount of solvent to a now very liquid mixture of bark and alkaline water and shook the ever living shit out of it. I then took my organic (solvent) layer and set that aside. I prepared a solution of citric acid from pure granules I picked up at a local feed store. I mixed the two together hoping And dmt in the solvent would form a dmt-citrate. This citrate salt is polar, and therefore not soluable in a non-polar solvent (like xylene). I washed again with a non-polar and took my water layer off and based it lye to a ph of ~13. I added some solvent and intimately mixed the two, and removed my solvent. I added half as much solvent as last time and started adding salt until no more would dissolve. I then VERY intimately mixed everything and removed the solvent.

I vac filtered out my bark solution and did an a/b on it, eventually combining all of my solvents.

Before doing this I let my bark sit in solution for a couple extra days stirring it on occasion. It yielded me some extra spice, not a whole lot but plenty extra to justify the effort. I distilled off much of the solvent under reduced pressure but you can just as effectively evap it with a fan.

 

[Nadja]

It seems to me that the whole oxidation thing is way overstated. I have used hot (not warm) water baths during extractions and have never had a problem with oxidation. I have also left DMT in non-airtight containers at room temperature for over a year and a half with no change in appearance or potency. Can DMT oxidize? Absolutely. Is it something that one needs to be very cautious in order to avoid? My experience would indicate that it isn't.

That's true. Most people freak out if they leave their DMT out to dry a few hours in the open air. It is totally exaggerated.

 

[Winemaker]

Thanks for the help all. And for the assurance that oxide is over hyped. I've been seeing that assertion elsewhere but it's nice to hear it again. Also thanks for answering the question!

So one last thing. At what ph does the molecule salt and freebase? I've seen people say 3 and 12, while others say 5 and 10

 

[DansMaTete]

So one last thing. At what ph does the molecule salt and freebase? I've seen people say 3 and 12, while others say 5 and 10

The pH thing is not on/off or black/white or freebase/salt. In a solution, there always a mix of freebase and salt and the proportion change with pH. Higher pH means more freebase than salt.
You can use Infundibulum's work to ascertain the proportion. In exemple, at ph=12 99% DMT is in freebase form and at pH=3 99,99% is in salt form. At pH=10 4,6% is still in salt form.

 

[Winemaker]

The pH thing is not on/off or black/white or freebase/salt. In a solution, there always a mix of freebase and salt and the proportion change with pH. Higher pH means more freebase than salt.
You can use Infundibulum's work to ascertain the proportion. In exemple, at ph=12 99% DMT is in freebase form and at pH=3 99,99% is in salt form. At pH=10 4,6% is still in salt form.

Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for! I'd really suggest that this be added into the wiki somewhere. It's been one of those ethereal questions whose answer has never really popped up like this for me until now

 

[DansMaTete]

To be accurate, Benzyme pointed a website he uses and the values are a bit different (probably more accurate) and instead of pH 12, it's better to reach 13 to be close to 100% freebase.
Anyway, i still use infundibulum's calculator cause it's easier to handle for a no chemist (and lazy) like me.

I think it's already in the wiki, but where, that is the question...


Happy extraction