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Sodium (Bi)carbonate instead of NaOH in basifying DMT for an A/B (ALSO ACETONE EXTRACTION NO LYE NO
- Thread starter crakkbakk
- Start date
has anyone compared yeilds- A/B type extractions (including STB) vs acetone/sodium carbonate ?
swim imagines a fair amount of mechanical loss when dealing with larger volumes.
he is also concearned about what a pain filtering all that stuff would be for the washes... or do other swimmers simply decant?
also- when making paste- is it ever a concearn that things arent mixed well enough? he imagines that 'just wet enough' would equate to a percentage of the bark that doesnt quite get exposed well enough.
also- in regards to letting basified paste dry- are people using heat?, and regardless of that, wouldnt there more oxidation and degradation of the goodies compared to an A/B type? Due to increased surface area when the material is basified?
Also, is it possible to defat with acetone, and then use DCM to extract with the pH @ 11ish per the basification with soda ash (sodium carbonate)?
swim imagines a fair amount of mechanical loss when dealing with larger volumes.
he is also concearned about what a pain filtering all that stuff would be for the washes... or do other swimmers simply decant?
also- when making paste- is it ever a concearn that things arent mixed well enough? he imagines that 'just wet enough' would equate to a percentage of the bark that doesnt quite get exposed well enough.
also- in regards to letting basified paste dry- are people using heat?, and regardless of that, wouldnt there more oxidation and degradation of the goodies compared to an A/B type? Due to increased surface area when the material is basified?
Also, is it possible to defat with acetone, and then use DCM to extract with the pH @ 11ish per the basification with soda ash (sodium carbonate)?
Trying to defat with acetone would be rather - disappointing.
Is it possible that some of the natural dmt (dmt tannin) is slightly soluble in the first acetone wash?
What about an acid/base where vinegar acidified the solution which is washed with naphtha (naphtha discarded), based with sodium carbonate, dryer with magnesium sulphate, extracted with acetone, evaporated to dmt? 69ron just said to not use multiple solvents, however.
I am getting a kilo and a half of rootbark in a few days. I will dedicate 500g to acetone type extractions and write a detailed report if anyone is interested. If you think this is a good idea please give me a PM and give me some ideas.
69ron has pm'd me and told me the acetone extraction would increase the mix of alkaloids and decrease the amount of dmt. The way around this is to rextal with hot naphtha. It would be best for me to do this before posting my yields, correct?
What about an acid/base where vinegar acidified the solution which is washed with naphtha (naphtha discarded), based with sodium carbonate, dryer with magnesium sulphate, extracted with acetone, evaporated to dmt? 69ron just said to not use multiple solvents, however.
I am getting a kilo and a half of rootbark in a few days. I will dedicate 500g to acetone type extractions and write a detailed report if anyone is interested. If you think this is a good idea please give me a PM and give me some ideas.
69ron has pm'd me and told me the acetone extraction would increase the mix of alkaloids and decrease the amount of dmt. The way around this is to rextal with hot naphtha. It would be best for me to do this before posting my yields, correct?
Not necessarily. SWIM's FOAF always considers the total smokable product when referring to yields. That is total alkaloids from mimosa, even though the vast majority of them will be dmt, then follows dmt-N-oxide and last come the "modifier" alkaloids collectively faling under the description "jungle spice"crakkbakk said:
All make you trip. The trip from smoking the total alkaloidal mixture (at least for this guy at the ~60mg range) is either indistinguishable from pure white dmt alone or slightly modified in a more positive way (stronger?). But again this couldn't be more of a subjective opinion. There are very few people that actually smoke the total mimosa alkaloids and report comparisons to pure white dmt.
crakkbakk said:
If you defat with solvent X, you should extract with solvent X. However, you can defat with solvent X and Y, and then extract with either X or Y. But never defat with solvent X and then extract with solvent Y, that will increase impurities.
The idea is that with defat solvent X to exhaust the material of things soluble in solvent X. Then freebase and extract into solvent X.
If you defat with solvent Y, you will exhaust the material of things soluble in solvent Y, but not solvent X. Then if you freebase and extract with solvent X you’ll get additional junk because you never exhausted the material with solvent X.
If you defat with solvent Y and then X, you will exhaust the material of things soluble in both solvent Y and X. Then if you freebase and extract with solvent X you’ll get extremely clean results. This is the better choice.
Make sense?
crakkbakk said:
Decrease the amount of DMT? That depends on how it’s done. I think maybe you misunderstood what I said. I was talking about a different type of tech made for anadenanthera which uses a different set of extraction steps. It uses acetone, but in a different way. It doesn’t apply here.
If you defat with acetone, and then freebase with acetone, it won’t decrease the amount of DMT extracted. But in the citric acid acetone precipitation tech for Yopo it will. But that’s a different tech using different laws of chemistry. The one you guys are talking about here doesn't use citric acid precipitation, so it doesn't apply.
69ron said:
I mean the percentage of DMT would go down because other alkaloids would be present.
Like instead of 100mg pure DMT there would be ..89% DMT 11% other (for example).
I understand what you are saying about solvent X and solvent Y, but don't you think naphtha would do a better job at getting rid of plant impurities then acetone?
Like if solvent X extracted 99% impurities, but solvent Y could only extract 95% impuries, doing a solvent X wash first wouldnt require a follow up solvent Y wash before basing and extracting with solvent Y.
Correct?
I don't think you're making it complicated enough.
Surely you could throw some butane or MEK in there somewhere.
Mabe a couple of steps from a mushroom grow tek?
Surely you could throw some butane or MEK in there somewhere.
Mabe a couple of steps from a mushroom grow tek?
crakkbakk said:
No. That's not correct. It doesn't work like that. I've been doing herbal extraction for a long time. I know what I'm talking about here, but maybe I can't explain it well. I'll give it a shot.
It’s like this. We have junk we don’t want as J1, J2, and J3, and then alkaloid A which we do want. Alkaloid A is soluble in solvent X and Y when freebase, but not as a salt. Junk J1, J2, and J3, are what we want to get rid of. J1, and J2 are soluble in solvent X, and J2 and J3 are soluble in solvent Y.
Ok so this is what we have in our extract:
J1 + J2 + J3 + A
We want alkaloid A, we don’t want any of the junk (J1-J3).
If we defat with solvent X which pulls out J1 + J2 we are left with the following:
J3 + A
If we defat with solvent Y which pulls out J2 + J3 we are left with the following:
J1 + A
If we defat with solvent X and then freebase and extract with solvent Y we get:
J1 + A
If we defat with solvent Y and then freebase and extract with solvent X we get:
J3 + A
If we defat with solvent Y and then freebase and extract with solvent Y we get:
A
If we defat with solvent X and then freebase and extract with solvent X we get:
A
If we defat with solvent X and Y and then freebase and extract with solvent Y we get:
A
If we defat with solvent X and Y and then freebase and extract with solvent X we get:
A
Do you understand how that works?
Naphtha cannot extract everything that acetone can extract and acetone cannot extract everything naphtha can extract. It is impossible because they do not have the same solvency for all compounds. This is why you always defat with the same solvent you extract with for best results when doing an A/B extraction. That is a universal law. You cannot get around that law.
This is a fundamental law of solvency and cannot be broken. Anyone else want to attack this from a different point of view to help explain this?
I’m sure others on this forum know about this law.
All solvents extract a different set of compounds in different ratios. There are many factors involved, not just polarity. I’m sure there’s a least one science professor here that can help explain this to the others here.
Anyone want to take a crack at explaining this better? I sometimes have a hard time explaining these kinds of things.
69ron said:
No, I'm rather enjoying watching you dig yourself out of this one.
???
Dig myself out of what? Out of helping to explain extraction to people who don't understand how it works? Dig myself out of that? That's an odd way of looking at trying to help someone out.
He'll get it eventually and be better at the art of plant extraction.
Dig myself out of what? Out of helping to explain extraction to people who don't understand how it works? Dig myself out of that? That's an odd way of looking at trying to help someone out.
He'll get it eventually and be better at the art of plant extraction.
I'm just going to trust your logic and wash it with naptha, then wash it with acetone, base it and extract it with acetone.X Y X..ha
For a STB (not acetone), can I wash with naphtha first before basifying and extracting or would the first wash take out significant amount of DMT? Becuase an a/b requires acidifying the water, washing the acidwaterdmt with napthta..
For a STB (not acetone), can I wash with naphtha first before basifying and extracting or would the first wash take out significant amount of DMT? Becuase an a/b requires acidifying the water, washing the acidwaterdmt with napthta..
This thread relates to humans in that they both have evolved yet some people don't understand it 
The thread originally asked if sodium carbonate would work. This question was answered by saying no not in naphtha but in DCM/chloroform or acetone. The acetone sparked interest and the thread shifted to acetone related questions where questions where answered in that you need to acetone wash, base with sodium carbonate, dry, extract with acetone, evaporate. Now the thread is just on logistics.
BTW, if a STB were to happen, could one wash with naphtha before basing + extracting with naptha? Why doesn't anyone do this?
The thread originally asked if sodium carbonate would work. This question was answered by saying no not in naphtha but in DCM/chloroform or acetone. The acetone sparked interest and the thread shifted to acetone related questions where questions where answered in that you need to acetone wash, base with sodium carbonate, dry, extract with acetone, evaporate. Now the thread is just on logistics.
BTW, if a STB were to happen, could one wash with naphtha before basing + extracting with naptha? Why doesn't anyone do this?
crakkbakk said:
Certainly you could; as I recall, this is a step in the lazyman's tek.
The reason that no one does is because plant fats don't present a substantial problem when extracting from MHRB with naphtha.
When doing a dry A/B acetone extraction, you absolutely NEED to defat with acetone first several times with the alkaloids in their salt form. If you do not, you'll get a bunch of junk in your final product.
You're not just removing fat, you're also removing anything else soluble in the acetone such as waxes, some sugars, oils, etc. Don’t think of it as a defat, think of it as a pre-extraction or chemical wash. You wash it with acetone to remove all compounds soluble in acetone. Before freebasing, the alkaloids are not soluble in the acetone, but a LOT of other junk is. After freebasing, then extracting with acetone will only pull the alkaloids because the other stuff was already pulled before you freebased the alkaloids.
You're not just removing fat, you're also removing anything else soluble in the acetone such as waxes, some sugars, oils, etc. Don’t think of it as a defat, think of it as a pre-extraction or chemical wash. You wash it with acetone to remove all compounds soluble in acetone. Before freebasing, the alkaloids are not soluble in the acetone, but a LOT of other junk is. After freebasing, then extracting with acetone will only pull the alkaloids because the other stuff was already pulled before you freebased the alkaloids.
