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Something Very Big is Happening . . .

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The Traveler said:
And who are you to say that he is not delusional? The first post in this thread clearly makes no sense.

It might be unfortunate to say, but until now ZERO prophecies with substance use has ever been proven to come true. On the other hand, it is well known that certain people are susceptible for delusions and that psychedelics (and medicine) can enhance this in a bad way.
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Makes no sense to you. Perhaps it makes sense to others?

Zero prophecies with substance use have come true. Really? You know of every prophesy that has been made via substance use, and know that none of them have ever come true?

So now I ask you, what is more likely if you see a post like the first one in this thread:

1) This person has a real prophecy or...
2) The person who has written it is delusional
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I give it equal footing until I hear more about what he claims he discovered. By automatically judging him to be delusional, you (plural) effectively killed the messenger before he had a chance to deliver his message. Get the whole story before you (plural) are so quick to judge. Respond, don't react.

It would actually be very rude and completely not compassionate to just let this take it's run where the person involved ends up in a very bad way. Just letting it flow is like watching an accident happen that you can prevent and you are doing nothing about it since "he is learning exactly what he needs".

We have to take responsibility here and I stand by my point that what was written in the first post is alarming and we should react to that.
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What if the person doesn't end up in a bad way? What if we get wonderful creativity that expands possibilities and our own awareness? Then it would be rude and lacking compassion to instantly label them delusional and dismiss anything further they might say. He did indicate that more information would be forthcoming, that he would expand upon his original post.

How can any of us assume that we have the right or knowledge to tell someone where they are, or where they should go on their path through life? How can you take responsibility for another? The only one you ever need to take responsibility for is yourself. Ultimately there is nothing that any of us can do about it, since we approach it from our own limited awareness, and know absolutely nothing about what has brought him to this moment in time. He is on his own path of self discovery and actualization, and thus he will learn what he needs to learn in order to heal and evolve.

Predetermining what is to come is absurd. You are predicting the future and judging something based solely from your own previous experiences, and thus effectively putting blinders on to the myriad of possibilities that exist. How can we grow or expand if we do not entertain new forms of thought, or encounter things that are unfamiliar to us?

Why is it alarming, and why do you feel the need to "react" to that? Really ponder that...since it has nothing to do with Maxx, and everything to do with you.
 
Saidin said:
The Traveler said:
And who are you to say that he is not delusional? The first post in this thread clearly makes no sense.

It might be unfortunate to say, but until now ZERO prophecies with substance use has ever been proven to come true. On the other hand, it is well known that certain people are susceptible for delusions and that psychedelics (and medicine) can enhance this in a bad way.
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Makes no sense to you. Perhaps it makes sense to others?

Zero prophecies with substance use have come true. Really? You know of every prophesy that has been made via substance use, and know that none of them have ever come true?
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Check that word of mine: proven

We can all make our own prophecies and then later on call them truth when one of the many prophecies that are made happens to come true. If you randomly make many statements about the future then a few of them are bound to come true.


Saidin said:
What if the person doesn't end up in a bad way? What if we get wonderful creativity that expands possibilities and our own awareness? Then it would be rude and lacking compassion to instantly label them delusional and dismiss anything further they might say. He did indicate that more information would be forthcoming, that he would expand upon his original post.
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We can all make nice 'what if' scenarios but what matters is that we stay on the safe side here with what little information that we have. We have waited for the 'more information' and it seems this was more of a joke and/or the poking of an idea for a fictional story line. I am happy that I took the safe side here.


Saidin said:
How can any of us assume that we have the right or knowledge to tell someone where they are, or where they should go on their path through life? How can you take responsibility for another? The only one you ever need to take responsibility for is yourself. Ultimately there is nothing that any of us can do about it, since we approach it from our own limited awareness, and know absolutely nothing about what has brought him to this moment in time. He is on his own path of self discovery and actualization, and thus he will learn what he needs to learn in order to heal and evolve.
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We have this forum and platform where we discuss a lot of different things. Some of the things we discuss here are safe while some might be outright dangerous. Because of this we have to be responsible and take action when we feel it is needed.

I remember that we had this kind of talk before and you seem to think that if we let all people do whatever they like on this forum that all will be well. Sorry to say this to you, but that does not work that way. When you have many people with many different ideas you only have to wait until it goes completely out of hand, this actually happened when the DMT-Nexus grew beyond a certain critical mass. Since that moment we have our own rule set to make sure we can all get along here.


So to come back to the subject at hand: when people show traits that are alarming to me, I will step in and take the action that I deem appropriate. And I rather take the safe side than be sorry later on.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
People who "break through their egos" or indeed "break through...sanity" often want to announce a "new idea." Of course, it's perfectly self-evident: They wish to provide this idea to others because it is TRUE.

...and it is at just that point where it can be demonstrated when people have a problem with their thinking--a very substantial problem which is somewhere around the generation point of the strict psychological description of "delusion."

It's this: If you think it is WRONG to question ideas you are in fact quite close to having an UNHEALTHY psychological problem. Go back and look at the first paragraph of my post: The person is making a claim their idea is TRUE. But do you realize that the simple statement of the truth of ONE idea also tacitly states that many other ideas are FALSE. Once you make a declarative statement you DENY (likely) at least some of the declarative statements of others. And so it's perfectly OK for a discussion to ensue about "which" statement is actually true and which is false.

If you have a PROBLEM with the above, then your mind is nearing an unhealthy place--a place where you have CONFUSION about what occurs to you as true in your own mind vs what is true objectively--true so that others can discover it as well, because the "truth" under discussion is not in one mind only.

Rightly, some people who have shot into hyperspace become temporarily confused about such things, because the consciousness itself is being tested and challenged (and certainly the "normal ego" is). But the MOMENT you start making truth statements, it is YOU who is back to ordinary reality, where some things are true--others false--and logic dictates how they must fit together. Again, that is true the moment you CLAIM something is true: again, because by such a claim you are saying things are one way, and NOT another way.

People having problems with those transitions need help, by being reminded of the power of the transitions made: the power to flush away previous delusions...and perhaps the power to create new ones.
 
SWIMfriend said:
People who "break through their egos" or indeed "break through...sanity" often want to announce a "new idea." Of course, it's perfectly self-evident: They wish to provide this idea to others because it is TRUE.
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For them...

It's this: If you think it is WRONG to question ideas you are in fact quite close to having an UNHEALTHY psychological problem. Go back and look at the first paragraph of my post: The person is making a claim their idea is TRUE. But do you realize that the simple statement of the truth of ONE idea also tacitly states that many other ideas are FALSE. Once you make a declarative statement you DENY (likely) at least some of the declarative statements of others. And so it's perfectly OK for a discussion to ensue about "which" statement is actually true and which is false.
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It is not wrong to question ideas, it is imperative, especially those ideas about objective reality which the vast majority of people assume to be true. It is amazing at how inaccurate our taught perception of objective reality is. The claim of personal truth does not necessitate any other idea being false. In fact, all subjective truths are valid, since the objective world is nothing but an illusion created by our minds. So one person's claim of personal truth is equally as valid as anothers. How can a discussion ensue about a statement of personal truth, when one side comes from a state of complete ignorance?

If you have a PROBLEM with the above, then your mind is nearing an unhealthy place--a place where you have CONFUSION about what occurs to you as true in your own mind vs what is true objectively--true so that others can discover it as well, because the "truth" under discussion is not in one mind only.
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Once again, there is no objective truth. The objective world is an illusion created by the subjective mind. Every single solitary thing that you have, do, and will experience exists solely in your own mind. We can agree on aspects of manifestation, and find consensus, but it is a consensus of illusion, a shared delusion if you will...think of The Matrix, which is really a beautiful and apt metaphor for the 'reality' in which we manifest.

Rightly, some people who have shot into hyperspace become temporarily confused about such things, because the consciousness itself is being tested and challenged (and certainly the "normal ego" is). But the MOMENT you start making truth statements, it is YOU who is back to ordinary reality, where some things are true--others false--and logic dictates how they must fit together. Again, that is true the moment you CLAIM something is true: again, because by such a claim you are saying things are one way, and NOT another way.
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But there is no "you", as "you" does not exist, it is an illusion. The ego is a fabrication, a tool superimposed upon your true self by the experiences you have had. You mistakenly assume you are those experiences when you are everything but. There is only awareness, and by claiming something, you are claiming it only in respect to your own current awareness and not relative to anything else. Therefore things can be one way, and another way, and we have no contradiction between truth and untruth. Hyperspace (meditation, drumming, fasting, etc are other methods to achieve the same thing) is one way to shatter the illusions of self perception, shatter the prison of awareness we have subjected ourselves to, and allow a glimpse of our true nature.

Funny how our egos can so easily and readily mistake truth for delusion, and delusion for truth...
 
Saidin said:
SWIMfriend said:
People who "break through their egos" or indeed "break through...sanity" often want to announce a "new idea." Of course, it's perfectly self-evident: They wish to provide this idea to others because it is TRUE.
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For them...
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I think this is where you get off the track, Saidin. If they want to assert what they say is true only for themselves, then there's no problem. The problem arises when they make an assertion they claim (or imply) is objectively true--true for everyone. At that point, the issue of whether or not the assertion is true becomes an issue for everyone, and an assertion addressable by everyone.

That, really, encapsulates my point: Those who can't understand the difference between a subjective truth "this experience/idea TRULY is in my mind" vs an objective truth "this experience/truth is true for EVERYONE" are prone to delusion: They are DELUDED into thinking their personal truth is true for everyone.

And this is not a joke or an unimportant issue. It is a diseased state. It is often the cause of great suffering for many people. And it's suffering which can be alleviated by recovering the ability to distinguish and understand the subjective vs the objective--including to understand that it's possible to have a "false" idea, and that it's important to evaluate ideas for their truth value.
 
You can't prove any of what you just said without invoking at least one hugely important presumption such as "your senses are trustworthy".

(I don't even know what you guys are arguing about. 😁 )
 
The Maxx said:
Amen, brother! Folks, can we say "Beating a dead horse?"
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We can only stop that when people realize that we have to be careful and responsible on the DMT-Nexus.

So in the name of that poor dead horse, please understand this position that we take in here.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
A wise person once told me... crazy people usually think they are sane, sane people usually think they are crazy.

This is when I was telling my counselor and shrink I had HPPD.
 
I find it troubling that you are so certain about your convictions, Saidin. You post in complete absolutes, almost like a religious nut, telling everyone how wrong they are because they do not acknowledge how "the objective world is an illusion created by the subjective mind". How can you even know this? What is with this arrogance, Saidin? I have been gone from this forum for a while, and I don't reckon I have seen you post in this way before. I really don't like it.

You claim so certainly that there are no objective truths, yet this itself must be an objective truth, thus you have a reached a contradiction. Furthermore, to accept all subjective ideas, beliefs and truths as equally valid is dangerous. People fly into buildings because of their subjective truths about the afterlife, God and the nature of our Universe. People get lost in delusions because of this. People commit murder because of this, atrocities because of this, genocide because of this. People suffer because of this. With a simple wave of your hand you just dismiss the extent of these issues by saying everybody is equally right. By your view, I can justify anything by saying it is my personal truth, and that it is equal to everybody elses because the objective world doesn't exist.

What about science? If it were the case, as you claim, that all personal truths are equally valid - then I find it pretty strange that we can dismiss ideas in science and make progress the way we do, and technology the way we do. The computer and internet you are using to communicate with me clearly speaks of the fact that there are good and bad ideas, even wrong and right ones, about stuff in this universe.

No, I really don't like the last of your posts here Saidin, as I usually find you to have far more balanced views than this.

Edit: Please notice that I have not mentioned anything about whether or not you are right about an objective world not existing. I have merely criticized your certainty regarding questions you can't possibly be so certain about in all intellectual, as well as spiritual, honesty, and commented on consequences of some of your ways of thinking.
 
I appreciate your concern for me Citta, and am truly grateful that you chose to express it.

Though in all honesty (and I don't mean to offend you or anyone else personally) I don't give two shits what you or anyone else thinks of me, as that would only be allowing someone else to define me, and thus give my power away. Liking me or not, my comments or not, has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with you. If you are resistant to and uncomfortable with ideas outside your reality tunnel, I suggest you ponder why this is so, as it is telling of where you are on your own journey to self-actualization...

I am not posting in absolutes, nor telling anyone they are wrong. You misunderstand. I am only offering a perspective...a subjective perspective of the nature of reality gained through extensive experience and study. Accept or deny it, in full or in part, it makes no difference to me whatsoever.

Some will accept it, some will resonate with it, others will ponder it, others will resist it, others will deny it. It all depends upon the experiences they identify with that have brought them to their present awareness at this moment in time...

Claiming that there is no objective truth is in no way an objective truth, it is a subjective one. Science, which you so honorably worship, validates this premise in its entirety. All of existence exists within the mind of the beholder. We can come to consensus about what we individually or collectively perceive, but that does not in itself create an objective truth. We could all live in The Matrix, and it would fit this paradigm perfectly. Science cannot prove we don't live in The Matrix, or that our entire Universe isn't a simulation (In fact there was an article not too long ago that stated that at deep levels of String Theory, the equations are indistinguishable from computer code). So any claim of an objective truth that can be validated is false.

You yourself claim that you are not arguing against this premise...so your point is that you don't like how I am presenting it? Fair enough if so. But then I should express myself in a way that you find acceptable in order to get my point across? If I pander to you, how many others might I offend or alienate? Should I give up my uniqueness or who I perceive myself to be in the current moment to cater to another?

All personal truths are equally valid, since we are all fragments of the Universal Mind, each experiencing itself as separate from itself. So the individual flying into a building is the same as one who believes non-violence is the key, to one who waits for the coming of a savior, to one who believes that there is no God. Who deems it dangerous? You? What gives you the authority or the right to speak for humanity, let alone a solitary individual you know nothing about? Life is eternal, you being a part of life are eternal, we are all eternal. There is only experience, and all experiences are valid because experience IS the expansion of the Universe. Time but measures change, which is naught but experience. You can agree with this or not, but it is A truth whether you choose to accept it or not.

Science is nothing extraordinary, it is only discovering what already exists, there is nothing new or special about it. I find it amusing that there are those who have created a new god out of it, placed it upon a pedestal as something to revere, when it is naught but remembering what we have forgotten...

Technology is not the sign of an advanced civilization, it is a sign of a civilization about to advance...
 
Saidin said:
Technology is not the sign of an advanced civilization, it is a sign of a civilization about to advance...
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I like that :thumb_up: , this civilization is very very far from advanced IMO. It will take many hundreds of years or maybe even thousands for this civilization to became advanced.

Just the fact that we have all this high tek stuff here does not mean we are advanced at all. Its just few individuals that got a bit further then the rest of us. Its the technology that advanced not us.

As for the last post from Citta. I think what he was saying is that you should not talk about things as absolute truth but as one of many opinions on this matter. If you say something like IMO or this is what I think about it that I believe no one will attack you for it.

But when you say it as a ultimate truth people will come to have their say. You should know by know that it is not supported here on this forum. If you have no good evidence people will come and eat you alive here 😁

That's why we have appropriate sub forums here on nexus where on you can talk fee about almost anything.
 
Also I think its time to stop this thread as The Maxx is not coming here to comment on any of our posts as he stated above and already opened different thread.
 
smokerx said:
Also I think its time to stop this thread as The Maxx is not coming here to comment on any of our posts as he stated above and already opened different thread.
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Hear Hear....

or else retitle the thread to: "Is this the right room for an argument?"
 
Saidin said:
Though in all honesty (and I don't mean to offend you or anyone else personally) I don't give two shits what you or anyone else thinks of me, as that would only be allowing someone else to define me, and thus give my power away. Liking me or not, my comments or not, has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with you. If you are resistant to and uncomfortable with ideas outside your reality tunnel, I suggest you ponder why this is so, as it is telling of where you are on your own journey to self-actualization...
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This. This is a prime example of why I disliked your comments. Though you may not have intended to, I perceive from this here arrogance, condescending tones and a pumped ego. I don't understand how one could go through their life never thinking that oneself actually made a mistake, handled a situation poorly, communicated in a bad way etc etc, and just shove the problem down other peoples throat by saying their problems with how you come forth has nothing to do with you, but everything to do with them - and therefore, they should ponder why they reacted in the first place while you can just go along on your high horse of spiritual correctedness not caring two shits about them, or what they have to say. Where is the humility in this? Where is the self-reflection in this? Where is the spirituality in this?

Saidin said:
I am not posting in absolutes, nor telling anyone they are wrong. You misunderstand. I am only offering a perspective...a subjective perspective of the nature of reality gained through extensive experience and study. Accept or deny it, in full or in part, it makes no difference to me whatsoever.
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Perhaps this is so, but you do not come across this way. You deliberately dismiss, or so it would seem, other peoples arguments on the premise that what you are saying is truth. Instead of balanced discussion and sharing of views with even a modest amount of humility, you repeat your cycle of presenting your spiritual truths and dismissing the views of others because you are convinced you are right, and you certainly don't seem open to reconsider anything, especially not when you are just saying the problem people have with your comments are problems in and about themselves, and has nothing to do with you. This is easily perceived as posting in absolutes.

You say "There is no you", "But there is no objective reality", "The objective world is an illusion", "There is only awareness" and so on and so forth. You are making truth claims about other people and the nature of our universe, truth claims that I do not believe anyone of us can make with complete certainty while being intellectually, as well as spiritually, honest. Further down in your post you even write "You can agree with this or not, but it is A truth whether you choose to accept it or not."

Saidin said:
Claiming that there is no objective truth is in no way an objective truth, it is a subjective one. Science, which you so honorably worship, validates this premise in its entirety. All of existence exists within the mind of the beholder. We can come to consensus about what we individually or collectively perceive, but that does not in itself create an objective truth. We could all live in The Matrix, and it would fit this paradigm perfectly. Science cannot prove we don't live in The Matrix, or that our entire Universe isn't a simulation (In fact there was an article not too long ago that stated that at deep levels of String Theory, the equations are indistinguishable from computer code). So any claim of an objective truth that can be validated is false.
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How can claiming there is no objective truth not be an objective truth in itself? Is this not a claim going all over the board, valid everywhere and at all times, independent of individual minds? If no, then the claim is true in your head and you readily admit it does not apply generally, if so there is no contradiction, and it must not necessarily be true at all. If yes, then you certainly have a contradiction.

I don't worship science, I trust it and I do it in my daily life. But enough about that. Science does not validate this premise of yours that there are no objective truths. Science may not presuppose this, and science does not need to either in order to work, but it certainly does not readily validate or suggest that this be the case. We do not know, neither in science nor elsewhere, whether or not all of existence solely resides in the mind of the beholder. I do not know if this is true or not, and I don't claim to know either, but as you know I have an inkling to believe that the world is more "complicated" than this. But that is me and my reality tunnel, and I realize that what I think might be wrong so I do not speak as if I know the truth of this. This is very different from how you come forth with your comments, as you speak as if what you say is true and that you really know them to be.

Now, if you dismiss both ontological and epistemological objectivity, there is no right and wrong answers about anything. Science does not necessarily care about ontological objectivity, but it cares about epistemological objectivity - i.e there are right and wrong answers concerning whether or not the speed of light in a vacuum is constant, if Newtons laws are valid, if pigs can fly, if the earth is round and so on and so forth. If you will, there are right and wrong answers about this "simulation" and how it works, if that is what all of this is. On the contrary of this, this would be of pure subjective character, and whether or not the speed of light is constant in a vacuum, and the consequences of such, would be entirely up to each and one of us just as much as which painting or piece of music is the nicest.

All we have got is this universe, this world. If we live in a sort of Matrix, then there will still be right and wrong answers concerning the simulation, and perhaps some of them even apply outside the simulation? Who knows? Nevertheless it is rather pointless to address this in our daily lives, as we couldn't possibly know what does or does not lie outside of this reality. This is a question completely out of reach, and do not constitute proper arguments for anything - just food for thought. You and me can still be right about things, or wrong about things - for example in the questions discussed here.

Saidin said:
You yourself claim that you are not arguing against this premise...so your point is that you don't like how I am presenting it? Fair enough if so. But then I should express myself in a way that you find acceptable in order to get my point across? If I pander to you, how many others might I offend or alienate? Should I give up my uniqueness or who I perceive myself to be in the current moment to cater to another?
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It is correct I am not arguing specifically against this premise, or at least I didn't to begin with, so my point was largely how you came forth, yes. And I will refer to my upper part of this post as a reply to this, as it is relevant here.

Saidin said:
All personal truths are equally valid, since we are all fragments of the Universal Mind, each experiencing itself as separate from itself. So the individual flying into a building is the same as one who believes non-violence is the key, to one who waits for the coming of a savior, to one who believes that there is no God. Who deems it dangerous? You? What gives you the authority or the right to speak for humanity, let alone a solitary individual you know nothing about? Life is eternal, you being a part of life are eternal, we are all eternal. There is only experience, and all experiences are valid because experience IS the expansion of the Universe. Time but measures change, which is naught but experience. You can agree with this or not, but it is A truth whether you choose to accept it or not.
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Here you are coming with the absolutes again. How do you know any of this? Do you not at all consider the fact that this might not be the case? This is just wishy-washy talk with no concrete substance in it. You have presented no reasons for why this is true, no arguments to support it, nothing. But I guess you don't give two shits about what anyone thinks, so there is no reason to do so, you can just post this stuff as facts and go along. This might work in your world and be perfectly reasonable, but where many other of us are living, this is not good enough. This kind of thinking and attitude, and the acceptance of such, would get people killed in real life, Saidin - where it is actually very important to consider the truth value of various claims and ask for supporting evidence and good thinking.

And yes, I deem it, and so do many people, dangerous that we consider all personal truths as equally valid. Again, this justifies any act on the basis of such personal truths, including mass-murder and terrorism as mentioned. If we actually considered any claim made to be on equal footing as everyone elses in real life, people would get killed - medicine would not work properly, technology would not work properly and so on. We would simply not care to ensure that what we are doing makes any sense across the board, because everyone would be just as right.

And who are you anyway, to say such things? Who are you to, by a wave of your hand, dismiss the extent of real life issues that arises because someone act on delusions, factually wrong perceptions and potentially dangerous convictions by saying they are just as right as anyone else?

Saidin said:
Science is nothing extraordinary, it is only discovering what already exists, there is nothing new or special about it. I find it amusing that there are those who have created a new god out of it, placed it upon a pedestal as something to revere, when it is naught but remembering what we have forgotten...
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Science is nothing extraordinary? You may think so, but I think it is safe to say that it permits us to do extraordinary things. You would not expect to live to the age of over 70 if it were not for science, you would not have electricity, a computer, the internet or any of our modern technology without science. We would not have Curiosity on Mars as we speak would it not be for science. It is hypocritical to degrade science like this, all the while when you are benefiting from what it makes possible for you.

Saidin said:
Technology is not the sign of an advanced civilization, it is a sign of a civilization about to advance...
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This is not what I said. I said that technology speaks clearly of the fact that there are good and bad ideas, even right and wrong ones, concerning stuff in this universe.
 
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