Sorcery/black-magic surrounding plant ''ceremonies''? As well as negative entities/demonology.

[AstralRoots]

Many people imv falsely believe that Ayahuasca is purely used for healing/good when in reality there are quite a number of people in this world that use it for the opposite: control, manipulation, and sorcery. No need to get into the topics surrounding Anton Lavey / dark occultism however I have often wondered if many of those people have relationships with some of these plants to fulfill their desires in their lifetimes. That's a bit of an aside to the fact that I've experienced exceedingly traumatic events in ceremonies wherein the ''shaman'' was unable to provide me care. One could make the case that such experiences could be resultant of the medicine showing one what they need to see however people can get seriously injured in these scenarios.

Second: I appreciate the threads on this forum that shine light on entity possession, soul retrieval, parasites, asuras, archons, demons, etc. Carl Jung deemed the unconscious ''dangerous'' and was known to have a loaded gun by his bedside during his deepest plumbings of the inner recesses of his unconscious. He feared the immensity of the visions and had as an ''out'' a slug to the brain. I'm still unsure in my own experience precisely the origin of certain parasitic/negative thought-forms however many cultures speak of them coming from outside of oneself (hexes/spells/curses). Some proclaim that such ''negatives'' offer a critical lesson to the undiscerning who very well may have let it in through their own accord.

I once heard an anecdotal account of an astral traveler who, in the lower planes, encountered a weighty demon that wore captured souls as beads worn around its neck. This is getting ultra fringe I realize and perhaps a bit conspiratorial however my mother herself shared stories of forms of psychic attack in peoples dream space that could even be life threatening. What's up with a common theme in a large enough number of peoples sleep-time to pause which all seem to point to a frightening shadowy-figure on a horse that ''visits'' them whilst under paralysis? Why do some instructors on the art of astral projection / lucid dreaming suggest some caution in cultivating such explorative endeavors via their understanding of the ''risks''? Why do we sometimes suggest ritual, prayer, reverence, and protection before we embark upon heavy psychedelic modes of exploration?

Through my own past life regression session coupled with meeting synchromystically another man who had an identical chilling past-life experience of profound error/violation of another's life: I deduce that, potentially, some human beings might be more karmically pre-disposed to encountering undesirable circumstances in their lifetimes. I like to point out to myself that karma isn't a bitch, she's a queen and is indeed a natural law. I'm not saying harm is ever deserved per-say but in the same way X bad action upon another can result in Z negative outcome in one's life is it that much of a stretch to consider Y result could extend into another incarnation?

In the end, I suppose it just happens to be the case that one might accept the facticity surrounding the poles of 'good/evil'. Primary psychopathy in the human species seems undeniably truthful through my research. Why wouldn't the same phenomenon be true above as below? Alan Watts pointed out that the fear of ''black winning'' is a significant fear at play in a lot of peoples psyches if even held largely on an unconscious level.

take care sojourners may all find peace in their lifetimes

 

[Panpsychic]

Carl Jung deemed the unconscious ''dangerous'' and was known to have a loaded gun by his bedside during his deepest plumbings of the inner recesses of his unconscious. He feared the immensity of the visions and had as an ''out'' a slug to the brain.

I don't think thats the correct interpretation and never heard this before.
Either way, I can't think of a worse idea.

Before we tarnish Jung with this lets see what it says for context.

"While on a train, he suddenly saw a flood covering Europe, between the North Sea and the Alps. When it reached Switzerland, the mountains rose to protect his homeland, but in the waves he saw floating debris and bodies. Then the water turned to blood. The vision lasted an hour and seems to have been a dream that had invaded his waking consciousness. Having spent more than a decade treating mental patients who suffered from precisely such symptoms, Jung had reason to be concerned. He was ironically rather relieved the next summer when WWI broke out and he deduced that his vision had been a premonition of it.

Yet the psychic tension continued. Eventually there came a point where Jung felt he could no longer fight off the sense of madness. He decided to let go. When he did, he landed in an eerie, subterranean world where he met strange intelliÂgences that 'lived' in his mind. The experience was so upsetting that for a time Jung slept with a loaded pistol by his bed, ready to blow his brains out if the stress became too great."

https://boingboing.net/2010/07/12/jungs-the-red-book.html

So it says he may have done this 'for a time' (not in general) and it was in a context of a period where he thought he may be going mad or losing his mind to some kind of schizophrenia. Probably he feared being institutionalized like some of the severe patients held in lunatic asylums as they called them back in the day.
Also it was in the backdrop of war in Europe.

So its not because he felt the unconscious was 'dangerous' but more that he feared at that point he was going insane over a period (without use of drugs) and considering how 'insane' people were treated back then, kept a gun for a while until he realized he was going to recover. Sounds like suicidal ideations following a perceived psychotic break.

Regards visions during psychedelics or even opening to seeming supernatural forces, no matter how dark, my general advice is always no matter the intensity of the experience, remember it will pass.

Whatever you feel like doing or any sense of urgency or if you feel that there is an intensity about it right now, just sit back and observe the mind. See if you still feel those feeling later on or tommorrow in the baseline state. More than likely, you will be able to integrate and make more sense of it in the comings days and weeks.

 

[AstralRoots]

That is a great response and I never fully believed the statement. However I might argue that he indeed proclaimed the unconscious to be dangerous from his perspective. Verbatim in material is this sentiment expressed.

I appreciate your response to my mental distortions. I am keenly aware that this post was me dumping thought processes which perhaps are better ought left to naturally evaporate.

A Taoist looks in both directions in time before acting. Whether that action be expressing words or taking action in the physical domain. I'd like to be like that.

 

[Cakaharah43]

I think everyone sees these things through their own "filter". Well this is mine

Curses and blessings are not created in the outside world but in the soul experiencing them. Their source is faith, ideals and beliefs. That's why some people may be blown away by even the most serious spiritual things, while others may be sensitive to the slightest. Yes, it is possible to believe a curse, a life situation, in such a way that the traveller actually dies from it. For my part, I think we should not dwell on either the curse or the blessing, neither blessing nor cursing. It is good to go in as a simple experiencer with gratitude in my heart, and I have found that these are the best smooth journeys. I myself have wanted very much to be in the outside world, or trying to be in a higher spiritual highway where things that happen influence our reality.
Of course there is a depth to the journey where you are simply disconnected from spiritual beings, but these states of consciousness are often described by the ancients as the prelude to falling into a trance. I myself am of the opinion that consciousness is not of much use there, but rather has a role to play in processing the experiences brought back.

 

[AstralRoots]

Indeed not all make it out of the so called underworld cycle alive. Some souls seem more circumstantially composed of encountering more darkened modes of existence no doubt. What else can one do but have faith that the murmurs of Eternity might eventually seep through.

Yes life seems to live humanity not the other way around.

The notion of a trance state preceeded by an abeyance of spiritual beings is something I had never considered.

Strong ego before no ego. Better become someone before no one. Chop wood, carry water.

Reiterating the potential of psychosis in the deepest of shadow working/gazing is a true test of the strength of the sojourner. In meditation schools psychosis is recognized as a common phenomoneon encountered in plumbing. So too in shadow work and what is entheogen work if not shadow work.

Niechze while not a traditional suicide certainly drove himself entirely insane in his obsession on what he perceived as true. Hard to not relate physical degeneration to some sort of distortion in mind.

Extremes seem to be yet another enterprise of addiction attempting to fill a deep void of until plumbed an unknown nature. Though a prolonged vision quest of eyes wide open into such void seems less extreme than the extreme of chasing extremes.

 

[Physics131]

Ver interesting thread.
Will write down some of my current thoughts here.

Many people imv falsely believe that Ayahuasca is purely used for healing/good when in reality there are quite a number of people in this world that use it for the opposite: control, manipulation, and sorcery.

I want to add that not every type of control and manipulation is bad.
As example self-control and depending on use also self-manipulation.
I do not know much about sourcery so I will skip it.
Writing this down because of the terms dark-triade and light-triade.
But I get your point, all aspects can be used in a very negative way.

No need to get into the topics surrounding Anton Lavey / dark occultism however I have often wondered if many of those people have relationships with some of these plants to fulfill their desires in their lifetimes.

I have spent a lot of time with the topic internal and external manipulation since I have been very young, but not with the intent to actively use it.
It was a necessity to get along with my surrounding.
Although spending a lot of time with this I can not imagine to dive into a trip to explore this places.
The more I knew about it the less I wanted to know about it.
Mainly used psychodelics for healing.
But I am also a novice in psychodelics.
I think that this kind of explorations require a very strong psyche and mindset.
Are this types of explorations more vulerable to get a psychosis?

I once heard an anecdotal account of an astral traveler who, in the lower planes, encountered a weighty demon that wore captured souls as beads worn around its neck. This is getting ultra fringe I realize and perhaps a bit conspiratorial however my mother herself shared stories of forms of psychic attack in peoples dream space that could even be life threatening. What's up with a common theme in a large enough number of peoples sleep-time to pause which all seem to point to a frightening shadowy-figure on a horse that ''visits'' them whilst under paralysis?

I had 2 sleep paralysis in my life where I met "the hat man".
The first experience was very frightening.
The second experience was about a week later and at that time I already knew what this state is.
I just ignored it and fell asleep again.
At that time I did not know that it is possible to enter an astral travel from a sleep paralysis.

Why do some instructors on the art of astral projection / lucid dreaming suggest some caution in cultivating such explorative endeavors via their understanding of the ''risks''? Why do we sometimes suggest ritual, prayer, reverence, and protection before we embark upon heavy psychedelic modes of exploration?

Encounters with dark entities can cause a lot of fear.
That fear is uncompareable with any other experience.
I think people have to be very resilient and well prepared for such an experience.
It can have long lasting negative effects on the psyche.
I think all the techniques you mentioned like rituals, prayer, protection help with the setting.
Many sources tell that when you do not bother with these dark entities they will go away as fear is what they are seeking.
But that is only one theory and personally I do not know what exactly happens in the mind.
It could also be some sort of backcoupling where negative emotions affect the trip negatively.

I like to point out to myself that karma isn't a bitch, she's a queen and is indeed a natural law. I'm not saying harm is ever deserved per-say but in the same way X bad action upon another can result in Z negative outcome in one's life is it that much of a stretch to consider Y result could extend into another incarnation?

I also like the idea of karma as it helps with positive interactions.
Someone not behaveing correctly can not expect that others behave correct to him.
Although it is sad that there are also very good people who have to suffer a lot.
That happening is more then unfair in my oppinion.
But thoughts like "it will be a lot better in the next life" create hope.
Asking myself then I do not know which theories like reincarnation, heaven/hell or others are true.
But all of them are interesting.

 

[SpiceCowboy]

Demons and curses are real, be careful what media you expose yourself to.

 

[Physics131]

Demons and curses are real, be careful what media you expose yourself to.

Could you provide a little bit more information then only that statement?

 

[Isanara]

In the old way, Ayahuasca was a sacred medicine tool that the Earth both provided and empowered. It can be used for all activities, including healing or hurting, war, hunting, even just plain enjoyment.

Today's new age psychedelic movement likes to portray the vine as a sacred healing tool, and it is, but it is also a sacred weapon. It was seen as providing access and insight into a spirit world, a world where the dead live, as well as other things, but still of the Earth. This likely relates to why it was given to some human sacrifices, it appears that it was seen as helping them along their way as they journeyed into the afterlife.

Deception and trickery were also seen as useful tools and things to potentially be proud of and skilled at, rather than ashamed of, in some of the ancient traditions. It's easy to see it from a modern Western civilization perspective and say that deception, as well as human sacrifice and the sorcererous arts are morally objectionable, or wrong but as Mr. P would say, they had an entirely different paradigm, their morality was as distinct from ours as their beliefs were.

So when we, as members of a Western culture, try to gain insight into the morality of traditional Andean and Amazonian shamanic practices, we can encounter challenges. This is complicated by the reality that traditional shamanism isn't practiced because the belief system set and motivation of practitioners is radically different than that of the ancient ways, despite being inherited largely from them.

Think about this, Amazonian and Andean societies, which used Ayahuasca and many other plants as tools for shamanic practices that include both kind and cruel practices from our modern perspective, they existed without money. Their whole world was, in many ways, radically different from the world today, in which Ayahuasca retreats, psychedelic shamanic tourism and vacation centers all exist and operate under a capitalist system.

If you find a shaman you like, a good teacher or person, them studying with them can be a wonderful experience. Or if you want a modern spiritual tradition with the light but not the darkness, try UDV. You can also brew and drink on your own. The Nexus here has a lot of info on that.

 

[SpiceCowboy]

Could you provide a little bit more information then only that statement?

I will say that folklore doesn't just appear out of nowhere. Researching and talking about such topics should be undertaken with the utmost of caution. One thing i will give an example of reguarding curses would be: freemasos/scientology, both of which sign all of their progenitors into lives of servitude to their respective entities. In the event of offspring going their own way they would be subject to a litany of curses. Even thinking the name of a demon inside of your mind opens the doorway to possesion. I thought i could dabble in some light black magic, let me tell you, its just like christopher lee said, "you'll not only lose your mind, but your soul." I don't speak latin, but when a fly came up, landed and waved at me in the light of a full moon and called itself padre flios, i listened. I renounce jabalon. I would strongly discourage anyone from following in my stead. It is not cool, fun, or anything like that. I have expierienced true terror and have no further wish to do so. Don't wear magic rings, don't read the clavis, don't fuck around. You might think you want power, but in my case i was told i had to kill for it, I do not want to kill or hurt anyone man. I've since gone through a purification ritual renouncing masonic spirits, no sins of the father for me, thank you very much.

 

[Varallo]

I will say that folklore doesn't just appear out of nowhere. Researching and talking about such topics should be undertaken with the utmost of caution. One thing i will give an example of reguarding curses would be: freemasos/scientology, both of which sign all of their progenitors into lives of servitude to their respective entities. In the event of offspring going their own way they would be subject to a litany of curses. Even thinking the name of a demon inside of your mind opens the doorway to possesion. I thought i could dabble in some light black magic, let me tell you, its just like christopher lee said, "you'll not only lose your mind, but your soul." I don't speak latin, but when a fly came up, landed and waved at me in the light of a full moon and called itself padre flios, i listened. I renounce jabalon. I would strongly discourage anyone from following in my stead. It is not cool, fun, or anything like that. I have expierienced true terror and have no further wish to do so. Don't wear magic rings, don't read the clavis, don't fuck around. You might think you want power, but in my case i was told i had to kill for it, I do not want to kill or hurt anyone man. I've since gone through a purification ritual renouncing masonic spirits, no sins of the father for me, thank you very much.

While your experiences feel very real to you, there's not really anything to support the existence of curses, magic, or supernatural entities.

Could it be that your belief in these forces has influenced how you interpret events? Have you considered that your biases may have played a role? Rather than attributing your experiences to the supernatural, isn't it more likely that they stem from your minds expectation?

I mean if you really believe that you were cursed and had kill for it ( this is very serious) I would say that you need some serious help from a trained professional, not purification rituals.

Anyway I’m not judging you for sharing your experience but with what you’re saying I more than a bit worried about your health and hope by giving it to you straight you might be inclined to give professional help a chance.

I wish you all the best and hope to not have offended you

Take care

 

[SpiceCowboy]

Could you provide a little bit more information then only

While your experiences feel very real to you, there's not really anything to support the existence of curses, magic, or supernatural entities.

Could it be that your belief in these forces has influenced how you interpret events? Have you considered that your biases may have played a role? Rather than attributing your experiences to the supernatural, isn't it more likely that they stem from your minds expectation?

I mean if you really believe that you were cursed and had kill for it ( this is very serious) I would say that you need some serious help from a trained professional, not purification rituals.

Anyway I’m not judging you for sharing your experience but with what you’re saying I more than a bit worried about your health and hope by giving it to you straight you might be inclined to give professional help a chance.

I wish you all the best and hope to not have offended you

Take care

Nope, i'm of sound mind now. I put on a magic ring inscribed with some runes and over the course of a month i started to get more and more off. While I do understand your perspective of writing it off and saying that its just bullshit, I would say to you: perhaps the idea of a purely physical world free from esotericities is more comfortable to you. Just because you cannot percieve something does not mean it isn't there. With that being said, my being cursed wasn't something i had to kill to resolve. Because of my research into occultism and undergoing of certain rituals was the reason for communication with demons. Following my drawing of a seal within my mind is when things got scary. Its not like it just all happened at once. Everything's normal now that i'm not wearing that talisman. While mental health is a real thing for some, it is a grift for others, a racket.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I don't confirm or deny the existence of such things. I can see how they can exist, I can see how they don't, I can see in between.

But, regardless, the power of self suggestion is powerful, and an element of both the subconscious and unconscious that youve mentioned. Sometimes it's best to frame things as they seem not as one thinks they are.

More to the point of the thread, nothing is all good, nothing is all bad, context and intent determines this. Psychedelics are not all sunshine and rainbows, evidenced by the spaces themselves, removed from our intentions. I've definitely seen my fair share of what seem to be "demons" and experienced "possession."

One love

 

[AstralRoots]

Wow.

I was initially sorry or concerned that my post was too out there.

Thanks for everyone's input. I look forward to digesting it and replying.

 

[AstralRoots]

In the old way, Ayahuasca was a sacred medicine tool that the Earth both provided and empowered. It can be used for all activities, including healing or hurting, war, hunting, even just plain enjoyment.

Today's new age psychedelic movement likes to portray the vine as a sacred healing tool, and it is, but it is also a sacred weapon. It was seen as providing access and insight into a spirit world, a world where the dead live, as well as other things, but still of the Earth. This likely relates to why it was given to some human sacrifices, it appears that it was seen as helping them along their way as they journeyed into the afterlife.

Deception and trickery were also seen as useful tools and things to potentially be proud of and skilled at, rather than ashamed of, in some of the ancient traditions. It's easy to see it from a modern Western civilization perspective and say that deception, as well as human sacrifice and the sorcererous arts are morally objectionable, or wrong but as Mr. P would say, they had an entirely different paradigm, their morality was as distinct from ours as their beliefs were.

So when we, as members of a Western culture, try to gain insight into the morality of traditional Andean and Amazonian shamanic practices, we can encounter challenges. This is complicated by the reality that traditional shamanism isn't practiced because the belief system set and motivation of practitioners is radically different than that of the ancient ways, despite being inherited largely from them.

Think about this, Amazonian and Andean societies, which used Ayahuasca and many other plants as tools for shamanic practices that include both kind and cruel practices from our modern perspective, they existed without money. Their whole world was, in many ways, radically different from the world today, in which Ayahuasca retreats, psychedelic shamanic tourism and vacation centers all exist and operate under a capitalist system.

If you find a shaman you like, a good teacher or person, them studying with them can be a wonderful experience. Or if you want a modern spiritual tradition with the light but not the darkness, try UDV. You can also brew and drink on your own. The Nexus here has a lot of info on that.

I sincerely appreciate your depth of understanding.

Anecdotally, at the tail end of a "ceremony" centered around the commodification of this ritual, I had a super uncomfortable connection to human sacrifice. As in the energy was "in the air". I also experienced indescribable attack that allegedly the "shamanista" was supposed to prevent? No doubt many servers are far from truly capacitous to seamlessly work in both realms. Filling pockets with flat currency via offering this ritual has also been odd to me. But then again here I am buying varying plants on the Internet so there is that..

I encountered an individual in Peru whilst visiting who refused to accept money for his kambo offerings. I will never forget his purity in this regard. Price tags upon healing have always been suspect whilst also aware of energetic exchanges being important. It's just that fiat, to me, is a dark can of worms I won't begin opening here.

Thanks for your encouragement. I happened to "get there" recently with rue/acacia which yielded the most beloved experience over any previous journey in modern ceremonial format. The medicine opened up to me more than any previous session which is cause for consideration indeed.

Take good care

 

[AstralRoots]

Ver interesting thread.
Will write down some of my current thoughts here.


I want to add that not every type of control and manipulation is bad.
As example self-control and depending on use also self-manipulation.
I do not know much about sourcery so I will skip it.
Writing this down because of the terms dark-triade and light-triade.
But I get your point, all aspects can be used in a very negative way.


I have spent a lot of time with the topic internal and external manipulation since I have been very young, but not with the intent to actively use it.
It was a necessity to get along with my surrounding.
Although spending a lot of time with this I can not imagine to dive into a trip to explore this places.
The more I knew about it the less I wanted to know about it.
Mainly used psychodelics for healing.
But I am also a novice in psychodelics.
I think that this kind of explorations require a very strong psyche and mindset.
Are this types of explorations more vulerable to get a psychosis?


I had 2 sleep paralysis in my life where I met "the hat man".
The first experience was very frightening.
The second experience was about a week later and at that time I already knew what this state is.
I just ignored it and fell asleep again.
At that time I did not know that it is possible to enter an astral travel from a sleep paralysis.


Encounters with dark entities can cause a lot of fear.
That fear is uncompareable with any other experience.
I think people have to be very resilient and well prepared for such an experience.
It can have long lasting negative effects on the psyche.
I think all the techniques you mentioned like rituals, prayer, protection help with the setting.
Many sources tell that when you do not bother with these dark entities they will go away as fear is what they are seeking.
But that is only one theory and personally I do not know what exactly happens in the mind.
It could also be some sort of backcoupling where negative emotions affect the trip negatively.


I also like the idea of karma as it helps with positive interactions.
Someone not behaveing correctly can not expect that others behave correct to him.
Although it is sad that there are also very good people who have to suffer a lot.
That happening is more then unfair in my oppinion.
But thoughts like "it will be a lot better in the next life" create hope.
Asking myself then I do not know which theories like reincarnation, heaven/hell or others are true.
But all of them are interesting.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I've found it worthwhile to consider the following: a magician utilizes Higher Will aligned with their personal will to manifest change in the material realm whereas, conversely, the sorcerer alone utilizes their personal egoic will to cause change.

Personally I've been led into studying dark occultism far deeper than many will ever care to. It has just been fundamental to my journey. I've met some of these types and they are very serious at their dark artistry, take it to the bank.

Funny how entendric words and phrases can be. Mind control can mean at least two diametrically opposite phenomenons. Having mastery over ones mind is mind control. Exploiting another humans mind through various techniques widely available online is also mind control.

Hope you're doing well.

 

[AstralRoots]

Demons and curses are real, be careful what media you expose yourself to.

No doubt. I could write a lengthy essay on this insidious and multi faceted subject.

 

[AstralRoots]

I will say that folklore doesn't just appear out of nowhere. Researching and talking about such topics should be undertaken with the utmost of caution. One thing i will give an example of reguarding curses would be: freemasos/scientology, both of which sign all of their progenitors into lives of servitude to their respective entities. In the event of offspring going their own way they would be subject to a litany of curses. Even thinking the name of a demon inside of your mind opens the doorway to possesion. I thought i could dabble in some light black magic, let me tell you, its just like christopher lee said, "you'll not only lose your mind, but your soul." I don't speak latin, but when a fly came up, landed and waved at me in the light of a full moon and called itself padre flios, i listened. I renounce jabalon. I would strongly discourage anyone from following in my stead. It is not cool, fun, or anything like that. I have expierienced true terror and have no further wish to do so. Don't wear magic rings, don't read the clavis, don't fuck around. You might think you want power, but in my case i was told i had to kill for it, I do not want to kill or hurt anyone man. I've since gone through a purification ritual renouncing masonic spirits, no sins of the father for me, thank you very much.

This speaks volumes to me. Appreciate your elucidation.