Soto Zen and DMT

[V01D]

Hey there everyone,

I'd love to post this in a more relevant section, but I am currently restricted to this one until I am proven to be of value (or whatever the criteria is for not being "new" anymore haha).

I have used LSD, very successfully under the right set and setting, to induce mystical experiences that one might refer to as Kensho to Samadi, but I am wondering if anyone who follows the same flavor of Zen and Buddhism as I (and really anyone else who wishes to contribute to this subject) can provide their perspective on how DMT deepens their practice?

In my experience the only time I came close to having a deep experience was when I took Pharma last summer, but that came with a whole set of delusions/ illusions I had to work through before I got anything meaningful out of it. Every time I've taken Changa or Freebase it has only been makyo, or these illusions of my mind/ other planes of existence. It's been very difficult for me to integrate my experiences with smoked DMT into my practice and everyday life.

Maybe I'm just not smoking enough to have a "breakthrough" experience?

Thoughts, comments, stories, and perspectives other than my own are all welcome in this thread!

 

[Jox]

I have practiced Zen all my life, 25 years by now. I can answer all your questions from Zen point of view. But I need some answers from you:

- how much practice do you have under you belt, how many retreats and of how many days.
- at first in Zen it is hard to understand the dharma talks, especially if the etcher has obscure teaching style, do you understand the basic practice concepts layed out by your teacher?
- do,you practice alone or with a group on weekly or daily basis.

Let me know, I love to see Zen here welcome.

Jox

 

[V01D]

Thank you for your reply Jox!

To answer your questions:

I have been practicing Zen for about 8 months now. I started my practice when I moved to the NW of the US last November. I was sitting every day for a while at the start, but fell out of regular practice as time went on. More recently I have been trying to sit every day again because I can no longer use cannabis to "escape" my attachments.

I have not been able to attend any retreats yet, at first this was due to work and lack of money, but now I am in legal trouble so I cannot spend the night outside of my state (although my Sangha is within 45 minutes of my house), and I get drug tested weekly. I am planning on attending one of the one-day (non-overnight) retreats soon though.

Luckily my teacher is pretty straight-forward with her teaching style, and there is a discussion and reading every meeting we have. She has also written a book about Zen recently that makes a lot more sense (both intellectually and in practice) to me than any other book including the Three Pillars of Zen. So, I would say yes, I do understand the basics of practice, and "the point" perse.

I try to practice Zen and mindfulness every moment of every day now. It has really helped with my issues of attachment to anger and materialism. I prefer to sit in Sangha, but I do not have that option but more than once or twice a month at the moment because of my job. I also attempt to sit with my wife, or alone if she has to work before I get to it, every day.

At this point I am trying to work through some relationships and life-challenges, like my legal trouble, as koans. I still need to have a discussion with my teacher on if I am going about what I am doing the correct way so-to-speak. It saddens me that I cannot attend Sangha every week or attend any retreats that last more than one day for probably the next few years while I resolve my past karma. Without going into detail I am in trouble for things that for sure violated the precepts and the Eightfold Path, and I deserve everything that comes out of it, including forced sobriety of cannabis and alcohol.

 

[Jox]

Hi isaakzibre,

I am glad that you have good and constructive mind set in difficult life condition you are in.

Tell me how do you understand mindfulness?

Also can you elaborate on - I deserve, and My previous karma.

Best Jox

 

[V01D]

Jox,

Mindfulness, in the way that I understand it, is doing an activity without filters or distractions. When I am driving at my job (pizza delivery) I do not have the radio playing and I instead make my awareness focused on driving... The way the steering wheel feels, the wind in my hair, where I'm going, the guy singing on the side of the road, and when I notice my attention drift I use any of these stimuli in the present moment to bring myself back into the present moment. When someone cuts me off I still struggle with feelings of judgement, but I've been getting better at not letting anger/ superiority get the best of me.

When I'm just going on a walk I try to only focus on what is happening in the moment, and not about past circumstances that I can do little to nothing about, although they still find a way to creep in and cloud my mind with imaginary scenarios about past or future events.

I could really go on forever about mindfulness, but in essence I understand it to mean just bringing my mind back to the present moment, and experiencing reality the way it really is without filters or illusions.


My previous karma refers to things that I have done in the past that are still currently effecting my life. I was selling a research chemical to people without being completely upfront about what it was, and was misusing sexuality (unprotected casual sex and a lot of it, and many hours of porn consumption) in an attempt to not feel lonely anymore. I feel I deserve the punishment that I am getting from my government because I was selling an addictive substance and not being completely honest to the person I was selling it to. I'm not sure how familiar you are with the way the US deals with "drug crimes", but I am probably going to have to be on "probation" which is basically restricting my freedoms by drug testing me every week and restricting where I can go within my state and when I can do so. The dukka I am experiencing with a lack of satisfaction with my sex life is due to my many years of porn consumption and fetishes that are quite disturbing to me now.

 

[Jox]

Ok, I see,

here is what I may say, mindfulness is ' no thought ' of any kind. Thought is produced by the six sense called consciousness, which is also liking and disliking. The reality is 5 senses, or functions of the physical body, and it is reality, sixth sense is not realities, and if it takes the center object of mine, my, I it is suffering. Thus in Zen suffering is not NEVER your physical reality, but only the product of the sixth sense, which makes a circus who's main character is I, me , mine, like and dislike.

Based on what I said, can you analyze your last paragraph, or to help you
- what is experiences and event past...?, where are they in the moment?

Jox

 

[V01D]

Hmm, in the reality of the present moment they do not inherently exist and are nothing.

 

[Jox]

OK,

So watch how do you reinterpret the past, and what you interpret in the present: - deserve... - bad carma of the past... Self torture is not much Buddhist approach at all, it is,more Christian, but even there you ask forgivness, and move on - so let go of the past and enjoy life.

Based on what I know of the plants, where you are in life, I would do Ibogaine as micro dosing, or full flood if you can afford it. It will reset your brain from the past.


When it comes to the use of words: - Nirvana, samadhi, brakethrough, oness, these are terms hermetic of this site, and psychedelic community at large, they have nothing to do with the actual practice of zen, or other sects:- brakethrough is no kensho at all, for example. They are used more in the New Age meaning.


For years I have been trying to find some practitioners in psychedelic community, but had no luck, actually you are the first person who has some knowledge or interest. Actually I am surprised that there is no cross over.

If you check my posts you will see what I am talking about.

Best to you
Jox

 

[V01D]

I completely understand where you are coming from with the cross-over aspect. It seems that so many people have experiences that could lead them to Zen, but they don't end up there because either they pay too much attention to the visual aspects of the entheogens or they have not had exposure to Zen/ Buddhism.

It's been seeming to me like most of what DMT, LSD, and mushrooms offer is mostly illusions that distract from the other part of the experience that brings us into the present moment, but if we set the right intention before using these substances we can harness them as tools for practice sometimes.

I've been intellectualizing too much lately, and not practicing mindfulness enough haha. It's easy to do when for so long I only thought in a linear/ logical way because of being on amphetamines and anti-psychotics for 16 years of my life (5-17).

Iboga is something I very much want to experience, but as I live the in US it is very hard to obtain without growing it, and even if I do grow it, it is still highly illegal

All (and this is relative to your advice, and not saying this is a small feat) I have access to is LSD, mushrooms, DMT, cannabis (which I cannot partake in), salvia, and a few research chemicals not worth mentioning because I have no desire to dabble in that any longer.

 

[cubeananda]

I completely understand where you are coming from with the cross-over aspect.

It would make sense that if there should be any true practice going on, then it would cross-over mutually, no?

As to the validity of your particular whys or hows regarding the apparent lack of cross-over I can't say much. Perhaps, appearances are deceiving?

Apparently the goal is voidness. To just sink into voidness so deeply that it penetrates all aspects of the practitioner.

An analogy could be useful: Let's say that black-holes in the universe are about as common as wild-flowers in nature. We could walk around just about anywhere in nature and find a wild-flower. If these flowers were black holes which existed only when you observer were aware of them, what would happen to you?


Well based on my experience with black-holes there is a huge-likelyhood that instead of ending up in the void, you would manifest yourself into some other reality. In less shrouded terms, whenever we come upon emptiness we tend to spawn illusions. Actually being in emptiness just takes some meditation to understand. We often cultivate frustration because we want our emptiness to have some kind of substance associated with it.

..and there is a substance associated with it, but it only accumulates by remaining steadfast in emptiness... often we disrupt emptiness and that substance is condensed into ideas, course sensations, subtle sensations, boners, realizing we should eat something, 'illusions'... its a long list because it started not long after the big bang happened.

So this is how we practice our cultivation of frustration. Despite this we have seen many wildflowers grow in the harshest conditions, we are capable of success regardless of what form we choose to practice and regardless of which collection of thoughts we choose to breath.

Is it really a jaded idea that one should choose not to practice zen in the name of zen?

There is literally no difference between a person who does practice zen and person who doesn't. However, all people should be loved, because there are many reasons to practice zen that we could easily peel like an onion. Eventually you end up with something that isn't an onion: a human heart, and i am being perfectly honest.

When it comes to psychedelics:

Lets say you look at a wildflower, but you can't smell it's fragrance. I don't think its a stretch that being on psychedelics will help you to smell the fragrance of a black hole.

What is the fragrance of a black hole?

Heres a timeline of the universe...

Personally, i think a black hole would smell like the inflationary period of the universe.

So, from one side of the coin, the smell of a black hole is illusory. When you smoalk DMT and you get a big ol' whiff of emptiness itself, usually you don't get deep into it before 'lessons' and 'geometries' and 'impossible objects'... 'entities' start popping out at you, i mean even the noises you start hearing sound exactly like what i would imagine a "quantum fluctuation" would probably sound like.

DMT and meditation can both show you that emptiness exists in every single possibility, and also that even though we stubbornly press on towards emptiness, there seem to be experiences and lessons to learn and receive both in life and in hyperspace. If we're lucky, we don't have to push the limits to 'enter the void' so to speak. I'm sure you can ask many members here about that.


Edit: also in response to "am I smoalking enough"

Well, all said above, and as expressed in many corners of this website, increasing the dosage is a very primitive way of achieving something that we hardly understand.

 

[V01D]

Thank you for your detailed reply cubeananda,

As you might be able to tell, I am just getting acquainted with all that the void has to offer. I have honestly not really "broken-through" except on an Aya/pharma dose last summer, and am trying some Changa I have had for almost a year tonight. I hope to experience something that will teach me a lesson that I need to know, and not just blow me away with psychedelic imagery haha.

You also bring up a good point of being able to practice Zen without calling it such, and it is perfectly fine if someone does so without ever sitting in Zazen even once. In fact, more power to those people!

I really like your analogies and imagery you used too BTW!

Thank you again!

 

[dropthemillstone]

It seems that so many people have experiences that could lead them to Zen, but they don't end up there because either they pay too much attention to the visual aspects of the entheogens or they have not had exposure to Zen/ Buddhism.

It's been seeming to me like most of what DMT, LSD, and mushrooms offer is mostly illusions that distract from the other part of the experience that brings us into the present moment, but if we set the right intention before using these substances we can harness them as tools for practice sometimes.

My recent DMT trip 8 days ago has greatly stimulated my practice. I do not practice soto zen, or even zen for that matter; but I do sit. And listen. I have done this off and on for about 15 years. I don't share the vocabulary with you guys for zen, but sitting has taught me a lot and the few times I've used psychedelics they radically affirm the value of working with consciousness in the way of sitting in silence. I had stopped a few years ago after having children because I was never satisfied with the setting -- some washing machine, closely shared space, etc etc. Well, I started meditating again about a week before hyperspace and when my opportunity came up suddenly - I did not seek it out - I decided I would sit for ten minutes and then the spice. Well, I still need to right about my experience, but suffice it to say that 8 days later I still feel as if I am standing in a cascade of deep healing and understanding. Now, I sit every single day and I won't let an imperfect environment stop me. There is much work to be done.

 

[V01D]

That's awesome, thank you so much for sharing!

 

[Jox]

Yes I agree, pretty impressive, dropthemillstone!