strange feeling after meditation retreat

[CosmicRiver]

Hi all
It's funny that i'm posting this since i was being so enthusiastic about meditation in the last few weeks (still am).

Anyway this Sunday i went to a meditation retreat with a group of Zen monks from the Plum Village tradition. The whole day was based on mindfulness practices. I left very happy because of the loving presence of the monks and their answer to a question i asked them, but felt a little off probably because i woke up very early and was tired.

On the next day (Monday) i woke up feeling the best i've ever felt in a long time, i went to work and i was mindful in everything i did. Then in the afternoon i was naturally drawn to meditate in a small oakwood near my home and again i had a powerful experience. My breathing became rhytmic and continuous and with my eyes closed i saw the mental image (not a CEV) of a red flower. Then being fully in the present moment was like a door to Reality in which everything is made of everything else and everything has an inner radiance but is as light and spacious as the sky.
After this experience i kept sitting in that wood and then i went home. Still felt very mindful and happy and grounded in reality.

I went to work the next day (Tuesday) and still felt like that. Right now typing this i feel happy remembering that.
Then in the late afternoon this feeling and my mindfulness started to fade away but i tried to embrace the feeling thinking that it's normal and that i have to continue the practice in order to cultivate it.

But then starting from Wednesday afternoon i've been feeling strange and detached from reality, the opposite of mindful. I feel like my mind is no longer within my head but scattered all over the world. There are still moments of clarity every now and then especially when i'm focused on doing something but for the rest of the time i feel kind of lost.

I don't know if i should keep meditating or not and what caused this and what's the best thing to do. I was wondering if any of you went through a similar experience. Thanks

 

[northape]

We all have a honeymoon period in the beginning of a relationship (be it with people, medicine or meditation).
The dark secret of any meditation practice is that it's going to lead to more difficulties, actually.
Yeah, it's a useful tool to develop focus and peacefulness, but any serious practice would challenge your life and mind.
Strange that monks are so against psychedelics… When used consciously, they are very similar to meditation practice.
I think it's just personal bias and lack of practical experience. At the end of the day, it all comes down to wisdom & awareness.
You need to work with yourself. Any experience is fleeting, and we always come down to our sober state.

Why meditation is important to you? What do you want to achieve with it?
If you are after enlightenment, you need to be able to let go of everything, including yourself (your concerns, joys, sorrows, etc.).
You can always just go with the flow of life and let the power that knows the way do its job.
This too shall pass.

 

[northape]

I don't know if i should keep meditating or not and what caused this and what's the best thing to do. I was wondering if any of you went through a similar experience. Thanks

Do absolutely nothing. Just continue the way you were doing it.
Give yourself some slack and don't chase an idea of perfect practice or mindfulness.
Just sit and give this issue some time & space. It's going to show you a solution by itself.
Please, don't make a great spiritual journey out of it all. Meditation should be like brushing teeth.
Spirit will guide you when your time comes, don't rush. Live your life and enjoy it.
And share this Joy with others.

 

[CosmicRiver]

thank you @northape as always
when you say that meditation is going to lead to more difficulties, do you mean that it brings up unresolved issues or do you mean something else?
i think that most monks have never had any experiences with psychedelics and they are against them because they are against drugs in general
how can a person do the last thing you said without falling into dissociation and isolation?

 

[northape]

thank you @northape as always
when you say that meditation is going to lead to more difficulties, do you mean that it brings up unresolved issues or do you mean something else?

Yes, it brings up stuff. Just like psychedelics do.

i think that most monks have never had any experiences with psychedelics and they are against them because they are against drugs in general

Most likely, but they lose a nice tool.

how can a person do the last thing you said without falling into dissociation and isolation?

Love. Compassion. Whatever word you choose. Don't make it about yourself, basically.
That's why traditions created metta in Theravada & bodhisattva principle in Mahayana.

I see that you are on a verge of a shift in your practice.
All is well

 

[CosmicRiver]

Yes, it brings up stuff. Just like psychedelics do.


Most likely, but they lose a nice tool.


Love. Compassion. Whatever word you choose. Don't make it about yourself, basically.
That's why traditions created metta in Theravada & bodhisattva principle in Mahayana.

I see that you are on a verge of a shift in your practice.
All is well

i guess since i always struggled with the things i mentioned, they were brought up by this. it's always hard to convince myself that i'm on the right path and not just pushing my mind too far

 

[northape]

i guess since i always struggled with the things i mentioned, they were brought up by this. it's always hard to convince myself that i'm on the right path and not just pushing my mind too far

We're all on the right path no matter what we do. Don't be hard on yourself.
It's much better to have doubts than sit blissed-out in a trance state for years.
This whole play of life is about awareness. All our stuff are just pictures on its screen.
Practice Love. See it in life & yourself, and consciously bring your attention & energy to it.
Love opens all the doors and it's the best guide

 

[blig-blug]

Just some advice that was helpful to me: in those moments when you "feel your mind is scattered", what is actually happening is that you are waking up in the moment to your mental state. That is, your mind was probably scattered already some time before you realized; the moment you are able to see that is actually a moment of higher awareness. Realizing that it's happening is good! Once you see it, you can make a change. Persisting on the sequence "waking up" -> "look at what's going on" -> "make a change" is an excellent practice. With time, the moments of "waking up" will again become less frequent, but this time not because you aren't waking up, but because you aren't losing awareness.

The main point (to me) is this: don't fall into the trap of self-blame or any other type of bad thoughts or feelings in those "waking up" moments. Just look and make a positive change. In my experience that's all there is to it, the main difficulty is being persistent and not falling for the trap of self-blame.

 

[CosmicRiver]

Just some advice that was helpful to me: in those moments when you "feel your mind is scattered", what is actually happening is that you are waking up in the moment to your mental state. That is, your mind was probably scattered already some time before you realized; the moment you are able to see that is actually a moment of higher awareness. Realizing that it's happening is good! Once you see it, you can make a change. Persisting on the sequence "waking up" -> "look at what's going on" -> "make a change" is an excellent practice. With time, the moments of "waking up" will again become less frequent, but this time not because you aren't waking up, but because you aren't losing awareness.

The main point (to me) is this: don't fall into the trap of self-blame or any other type of bad thoughts or feelings in those "waking up" moments. Just look and make a positive change. In my experience that's all there is to it, the main difficulty is being persistent and not falling for the trap of self-blame.

thank you
seeing it this way is helpful
even though in those moments it's difficult to act according to that awareness
for example, if i am with someone else and i feel like that, i can't really keep up a conversation and either i say silly things (as if i was half-asleep) or stay silent

off-topic but if you want can you tell me where does your profile pic come from? it looks familiar

 

[Koduckushi]

don't fall into the trap of self-blame or any other type of bad thoughts or feelings in those "waking up" moments. Just look and make a positive change. In my experience that's all there is to it, the main difficulty is being persistent and not falling for the trap of self-blame.

This is something I've been practicing. My thoughts are pretty self destructive. That tends to spin up a feedback loop that drives me insane slowly, if I don't see it fast enough.

Things have been good, but its tough to keep up the mindfulness. Especially when I'm listening to the thoughts as if they're true. That causes me the most pain.

I've been finding more ways to ground myself. Writing/poetry, meditation, good music, reading, simply enjoying things uncritically. Sometimes these are multiplicitous. Lots of good ways to do it. The thoughts (for me) tend to me coded messages. I simply need to retrain the way I tell myself things I need to hear.

 

[blig-blug]

for example, if i am with someone else and i feel like that, i can't really keep up a conversation and either i say silly things (as if i was half-asleep) or stay silent

Well, if it's a person you trust, you could just tell them that you're feeling kind of brain scattered and I'm sure they will be understanding. In a different context (i.e. work) that may not be possible. But even then, fretting about it won't make you more able to follow the conversation, and it's actually likely to do the opposite.

even though in those moments it's difficult to act according to that awareness

I would say that it's actually very easy... in a single mind moment. But after a mind moment another comes, then another, then another. Doing it individually in each of those is actually easy, but at some point it's very normal to get caught on bad feelings again, thoughts of "it shouldn't be like this", "this is bad", etc. The only thing you can do is, again, realize that you fell for it and try again. It's like a muscle that gets stronger, or like a habit. Our minds have very bad habits of quickly falling into blame, feelings of victimhood, etc. But they can be changed.

I understand the situation, because I get caught into that myself, and being persistent is something I tend not to do. But I have also personally experienced that when I was persistent, this habit of waking up, looking at what's going on in my mind, and making a change, became quite ingrained and moments of low awareness and falling for bad thoughts and feelings were much more rare.

Another advice that was helpful to me: throughout the day, look for some time of "seclusion" (just being on your own in a relatively silent place) and there practice getting your mind into a good state. You will see that if you meditate attempting to elicit feelings of happiness and well being, they quickly appear and grow. This was recommended by Buddha himself:

He trains himself, ‘I will breathe in gladdening the mind.’ He trains himself, ‘I will breathe out gladdening the mind.’

According to my Dhamma teacher, this "gladdening the mind" is a usually neglected step that is particularly important for westerners. Getting into a good mental state with feelings of happiness and contentment really helps when facing more challenging situations, such as social interactions. Gladdening the mind in "seclusion" is like the training wheels and the base camp.

off-topic but if you want can you tell me where does your profile pic come from? it looks familiar

It's from a Hungarian animation movie called Feherlofia in Hungarian, Son of the White Mare in English. It's visually stunning.

My thoughts are pretty self destructive. That tends to spin up a feedback loop that drives me insane slowly, if I don't see it fast enough.

That happens to me too, and it used to be pretty bad in the past. With practice, one catches it earlier and earlier in the chain of events that leads to it, and the earlier one catches it the easier it is to stop it.

Writing/poetry, meditation, good music, reading, simply enjoying things uncritically

Yes, enjoying really can be practiced, and practicing it by repetition is... enjoyable ;D

 

[northape]

You've received lots of good advice here. I agree with others.
Like a good ayahuasca retreat, your meditation retreat needs integration too.
Use all the issues that come up as a fuel to further your practice and understanding.
Be kind to yourself and give time for everything to take shape and mature.
Soon enough, you'll be on the other side of this change with a much deeper understanding of yourself and your meditation practice.
Life is like a school, with unceasing cycles of development and growth. Even if awareness is always here, we open up to it more and more.
My spirituality is about being present and open to everything, both good and bad. It's a hard path, but Love always beacons at the end of it.

 

[CosmicRiver]

Thanks a lot for the further replies. I read them as i was on a walk to reach that oakwood and meditate. I tried to show compassion towards myself, accepting that it was ok to feel like that. All kinds of depressing memories from my past came up and it wasn't pleasant but i thought "ok i know you are there and it's ok, i will listen to you". I had like a minute or so of clarity and i felt relief. Meanwhile i heard something moving beneath the grass behind me and it was a barred grass snake, really beautiful, who raised its head looking at me and then went away.

Since then i felt more grounded in reality until a few hours after i felt again in the present moment. It was a sudden shift in headspace. It even felt strange being fully in the present with my mind silent because of all the chaos of the last few days. I hope i will still be like this tomorrow morning and i learned this lesson and will address these issues before they will feel the need to get my attention again.

I'm really thankful to all of you that are always willing to give me words of help. It is really precious to find people like you that can understand me

 

[purrpuss]

Hi all
It's funny that i'm posting this since i was being so enthusiastic about meditation in the last few weeks (still am).

Anyway this Sunday i went to a meditation retreat with a group of Zen monks from the Plum Village tradition. The whole day was based on mindfulness practices. I left very happy because of the loving presence of the monks and their answer to a question i asked them, but felt a little off probably because i woke up very early and was tired.

On the next day (Monday) i woke up feeling the best i've ever felt in a long time, i went to work and i was mindful in everything i did. Then in the afternoon i was naturally drawn to meditate in a small oakwood near my home and again i had a powerful experience. My breathing became rhytmic and continuous and with my eyes closed i saw the mental image (not a CEV) of a red flower. Then being fully in the present moment was like a door to Reality in which everything is made of everything else and everything has an inner radiance but is as light and spacious as the sky.
After this experience i kept sitting in that wood and then i went home. Still felt very mindful and happy and grounded in reality.

I went to work the next day (Tuesday) and still felt like that. Right now typing this i feel happy remembering that.
Then in the late afternoon this feeling and my mindfulness started to fade away but i tried to embrace the feeling thinking that it's normal and that i have to continue the practice in order to cultivate it.

But then starting from Wednesday afternoon i've been feeling strange and detached from reality, the opposite of mindful. I feel like my mind is no longer within my head but scattered all over the world. There are still moments of clarity every now and then especially when i'm focused on doing something but for the rest of the time i feel kind of lost.

I don't know if i should keep meditating or not and what caused this and what's the best thing to do. I was wondering if any of you went through a similar experience. Thanks

You were wondering if any of us have had a similar experience, well, I would have to say yes!

Oftentimes I have liked to compare my relationship with psychedelics and consciousness exploration to fitness, in a way ~ You might go to the gym and experience new heights of strength, and then feel some fatigue afterwards. Not only that, your new awareness of what strength can be, casts other moments into a different light, and also after the workout you continue to develop/recover/grow in response to it.

In that same way, my experience of reality through psychedelic meditation has reached subtle new heights through each step of meditation, and some of those were not only powerful to be in at the time, but also afterwards in a way. It can take me some time to grow accustomed to a new form of awareness as it manifests itself every so delicately in everywhere you go. In the days, weeks, and months after a strong experience there can be a lot of contrast where I am noticing the effects of said awareness in all the different moments of ordinary life where I would have expected to experience a world more akin to what was pre-experience. This constant contrasting discovery is transformative in and of itself and fades in power with time. As my life continues ever on, that new quality of reality become not only normal, but with time, ever greatly cherished and appreciated.

I have felt this very much with focus psychedelic-meditation exploration, where afterwards not only did I have a stronger sense of focus, but also NON-FOCUS, and it was with the immense non-focus part that I was presented with immediately after the experience. I would notice my non-focus everywhere, and it would feel like wearing a pair of slightly off yet also dreamy and distracted glasses. Now however, my body and mind have of themself naturally learned how to navigate a higher focus world better, and have come to deeply appreciate this capacity for focus.

I would say the same for a newly beautiful sense of spatial awareness, or spatial dynamic, with which all earthly reality is now more imbued with. To try and describe it, I feel a little bit more as if ~ instead of looking AT or TO the world out of my eyeballs like a 2D-ish POV situation ~ I have more of a sense of where things are in space, relative to each other and me. It's as if I can feel the air between them and see everything articulately separate in space from each other like a 4D pop-up post card. It's a sort of enhanced spatial awareness which is not really a gaze I cast upon reality, but a SENSE of that which is gazed upon that I always have when gazing upon it.

I do at times feel like reality has a slightly more gentle, soft quality, as opposed to the piercing and penetrative quality some PTSD-like experiences can have. What used to be extremely engaging, is now slightly less engaging or gripping, yet at the same time all the more gentle and beautiful and clear. I do not feel like reality is engaging me, reaching out and gripping me as much, yet at the same time it is all the more ultimate, real, and deeply somatic. Sometimes just by looking at sometimes I can feel, in a way, a bit as significantly in touch with it as if I were to literally be touching it with my body. The presence of both seen and heard reality are that much MORE in my mind. So while I do feel like there are many aspects of life that I would expect to grip me, such as the experience of driving a car (!), I do not seem to be gripped and engaged as much by some of these things anymore. on the contrary, other things touch me that much more deeply as well. It's difficult to describe in english.

As I see it you had an impressive new experience, and it also actively stayed with you some time. Now maybe it is somewhere inside of you doing it's magic, mixing itself into the deep fabric of your soul and manifesting into (and as part of) your every-day reality in every more subtle ways. It might still be a little new and surprising to have these effects arising and actively transforming your sense of reality in everyday life, being that you are only a few days afterwards. Like a rock dropped into water, the waves of this experiences are mixing into and with the lake of your mind, and the first ripples after the rock drops can be the strongest. Over time the forces of this experience will harmonize with your entire being.

This is just a reflection of my experience so far and I hope some of it can resonate with you. I would love to hear your response!

Best wishes friend

 

[CosmicRiver]

Hi @purrpuss and thank you for sharing your insight with me
I think i can get what you mean. I liked the gym analogy, and i think i understood the part about recognizing the difference between focus/non-focus moments, and even the difference in spatial awareness, at least to some extent. I think i also get the part about reality having a different touch. These topics are very complicated in my opinion and it's very hard to describe them and for me it's hard even to think about them for long without falling into a kind of derealization. It's very complicated for me and you all seem much more at ease with this kind of topics. Paradoxically i was much more at ease about discussing these topics when i was in my teens than now that i'm in my late 20s.
Basically i get this feeling that there are so many things happening right now in my mind and in the world and it all feels very chaotic, and very deep too deep, except in some moments when i can find a center, a refuge within myself. When i can find this center even in everyday life situations it feels like i'm living the best life i could ever live but it's very easy for a thought/emotion to disrupt all of this. And it's very easy to think "maybe that refuge within myself it's just a mind-created image like a fantasy version of myself that i use to escape from my issues", and to fall into a negative loop. You seem much more at ease about talking about this and also you seem to have a lot of experience in the exploration of yourself. If you don't mind i'd like to know how you can take all those experiences you have had and reconcile them with your everyday life, friendships, selfimage, etc.

Like a rock dropped into water, the waves of this experiences are mixing into and with the lake of your mind, and the first ripples after the rock drops can be the strongest. Over time the forces of this experience will harmonize with your entire being.

Upon reading this last night i got a deep peaceful feeling, it all seemed to get in place. It's one of those quotes that i will remember many times throughout my life.
And speaking about the waves, i noticed the realizations/insights from these experiences tend to come and go, so maybe this is related to this phenomenon. It makes more sense thinking about it like this but it would be interesting for me to get why it happens and why doesn't a realization/insight that one gets while on psychedelics or while meditating erase all delusions and wrong views instantaneously

 

[northape]

why doesn't a realization/insight that one gets while on psychedelics or while meditating erase all delusions and wrong views instantaneously

Inertia or momentum that we accumulated over a long time. If you believe in rebirth, then it was acquired across lifetimes.
From what I read, even sages can have unfinished karmas, they just don't relate to them from the egoistic self.
In Buddhism, your physical body is the lowest level of manifestation. It is a reflection of your energy body, which is a reflection of your psychic body.
Even in Yoga, they work through ashtanga way: yama, niyama, asana, pranayama and so on (from morals & ethics to body and then to energy system).
Resolving our psychic knots takes time. You can't really judge how long you have progressed, either.

There are lots of philosophies around, but they all come down to presence. It's not about intellectual understanding in the end.
Whatever practice you do, if you do it with presence, it's going to bear fruit. Be it a highly pointed yogic technique or a more general just sitting.
Eventually, we just relax into our natural state. The road is long only for our egos. And it's our egos that want answers.
Myself, I'm just striving for a peaceful life and mind. It's a blessing to die with a smile, and it's a blessing to make others smile while alive.

 

[CosmicRiver]

i will do a quick update as a kind of closing note to my talk about meditation since i think i had underestimated it. now i think that when i meditated by myself, outside from practice groups and the retreat, subconsciously i looked to always have a peak experience, or to heal what's hurt in me all of a sudden. and i think i put my mind under stress because of this

this afternoon until a few minutes ago i was feeling very bad. i was having memories of all the bad things i've been through or seen. one after the other or all at once, i don't know because it was confusing. and i was having negative thoughts about myself, that i was worthless, hopeless and the like.
i'm happy that this time i meditated (i saw no other way out) but just to let these thoughts pass and get relief. i meditated just a few minutes until i felt better and then i stopped

several bad things i have seen appeared in my mind and i just wanted to have never seen them. to erase them from my eyes and my mind. but then an insight came that was like "why do you want to unsee them? those thoughts don't belong to you anyway" and i saw that it was true and they went away

i'm not saying that i'm healed. but at least i feel better
i want to take a break from meditation and reading/thinking about psychedelics. even about buddhism beyond what is necessary for me to live in a good way

i have a meditation session with a practice group planned for tonight and i'm going but honestly i will do just what i feel ok to do

thank you again to all of you

 

[blig-blug]

let these thoughts pass and get relief

Nibbana / Nirvana was originally the word for the blow that extinguishes a flame. I think that's exactly what it is. It's not a place or a permanent state, but it can exist moment to moment. I'm happy that you got that flame extinguished for a moment.

i'm not saying that i'm healed. but at least i feel better

And it's you who did it. I'm rooting for you