Hi Ruffles.
Thanks for all your posts, have had 44 sublingual DMT experiences here, post #1 summary:
Thanks for all your posts, have had 44 sublingual DMT experiences here, post #1 summary:
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Sublingual or intrabuccal DMT-MAOi patch
- Thread starter Ruffles
- Start date
I agree with AVA69 comments about taking the sublingual route...When it works..it works quite well..
What i experianced on my sublingual caapi leaf and LOW dose vaporized 50/50 acacia /mimosa dmt was also quite noticable ..
As the first sign was an auditory wine or buzz..carrier wave.. i quickly started observing sparkling colors every where above and all around me..as if something was just starting to manafest..
Then came the multi colored rain drops that fell through me like laser beams!
I could feel them shooting through me like beams of light .. causing me to start laughing.. because the colored drops of light caused a tickling feeling as they passed through my head and body every thing happening from then on was fun or very comfortable ... i had no room for anxiety..
I also remember closing my eyes and observing multi colored balls of energy ...color seemed to be the theme of my experiance..
Also remember just for fun concintrating on booth of my hands ...when opening and closing my fists..i could actually feel my hands as if skeletons without flesh..i just laughed at that///
The whole [45 minute experiance] was fairly intense!..[only limited some by the very low
[3 drop dose of spice tincture i used]... without anxiey at all....left me with a positive after glow ...simmilar to the after glow one gets after a great lucid dream!:thumb_up:
I do suspect the black caapi leaf...taken .[sublingually]...was directly responsible...but more test are needed to valedate my suspicions ...
What i experianced on my sublingual caapi leaf and LOW dose vaporized 50/50 acacia /mimosa dmt was also quite noticable ..
As the first sign was an auditory wine or buzz..carrier wave.. i quickly started observing sparkling colors every where above and all around me..as if something was just starting to manafest..
Then came the multi colored rain drops that fell through me like laser beams!
I could feel them shooting through me like beams of light .. causing me to start laughing.. because the colored drops of light caused a tickling feeling as they passed through my head and body every thing happening from then on was fun or very comfortable ... i had no room for anxiety..
I also remember closing my eyes and observing multi colored balls of energy ...color seemed to be the theme of my experiance..
Also remember just for fun concintrating on booth of my hands ...when opening and closing my fists..i could actually feel my hands as if skeletons without flesh..i just laughed at that///
The whole [45 minute experiance] was fairly intense!..[only limited some by the very low
[3 drop dose of spice tincture i used]... without anxiey at all....left me with a positive after glow ...simmilar to the after glow one gets after a great lucid dream!:thumb_up:
I do suspect the black caapi leaf...taken .[sublingually]...was directly responsible...but more test are needed to valedate my suspicions ...
Acquire films already made? Not really. But it can be made easily. Sometime in the future I shall make a more thorough picture laden guide to do them.
The hardest ingredient and most important to find is carboxymethylcellulose powder. Its a food additive (cellulose gum). If you can get trustworthy HPBCD from China you can get CMC. You can get it from amazon or ebay. Other ingredients are powdered starch (corn or potato), glycerol and citric acid. The recipe and execution are stupid easy to do, like baking a cake... well, like baking a very very very thin cake. You don`t need a lot of any of these ingredients to make films, 50 g of CMC should last you for life. I believe there are over the counter alternatives to CMC as polymer monomers, just look for homemade cellulose plastic in baking sites.
So yes, you put stuff into one side of the film and put that side under your tongue touching the mucosa and keep it there. That is its purpose and method of use. You can also put it on your cheeks, which would be intrabuccal. Since the film was dried, when you place it under the tongue it sucks up some of the moisture from the mucus layer (which serves to disrupt that layer somewhat), makes the film flexible again and it sticks where you put it for 3 min or so, after that it may move somewhat but it should continue to stick to the mucosa anyhow. You know it works to `focalize` substances because you don`t feel their taste until you move the location of the film. After 10 min or so you can just chew on it and swallow.
A final comment, the diagram of histological layers you posted is just for the mouth surface, not skin. When you compare mucosas with skin it`s a very distinct matter, dead epidermal cells that compose the skin makes are loaded with keratin fibrils which bind to each other (like a cellulose film or like a textile) as a tight hydrophobic and dry matrix, extremely effective as a barrier against absolutely everything. In a mucosa, such as the mouth, the outermost layer of cells are alive (and thus aqueous and permeable) with a hydrophobic mucus coating it, this mucus coat is not dry, nor is it tightly packed, making it more like a gel or a sponge, therefore it is also permeable to everything and easily scraped off, or dissolved with surfactants (like soap) or alcohol. Another important addition not in the diagram is that sublingual area is one of the most blood vessel rich epidermis, even compared with intrabuccal. All of this just to say how the sublingual route has a that lot of potential, we just need ingenuity to make it work for magik.
Interesting paper on aloe vera, thanks Ava69, gotta find some to try.
So far our experiments with one small drop of enhancers spread over the films where fumaricD+MAOi were placed on top involved: DMSO (0.5% diluted H2O), propyleneglycol (1-10% diluted), glycerin (1-10% diluted), PPG+glycerin+menthol (10% diluted), alcohol (30%), coconut oil (pure), olive oil (pure), detergent (0.1% diluted) and mouthwash (has menthol, may have alcohol) and chitosan powder (a tiny taste only, well taste of shrimp in the end). All of these appear to present marginal increases in effects, 20-30% stronger perhaps (faster hit, more pronounced OEV-CEV), who knows, feels like its well inside the subjective error range if there is such a thing. Alcohol at 30% (it was just a small drop over the film) was an overkill as it left the sublingual spot burning for a while, which is annoying when you're high.
The film itself is the only thing that makes a very perceptive difference in our opinion, reducing time to hit, increasing intensity of effects, reducing body high (or low) and so on, we've recently tried doing it without the film and had to double the dose for it to clearly come on above baseline (from 40-50 initial hit to 80-100 mg Dimitri-MAOi).
Well, yes it could. Aloe vera has lots of saponins which are surfactants, going to break up that mucus layer. Oils or lipids might do that as well. Sugars might help with cell absorption (activating transporters). There may be other specific stuff in Aloe vera that actively increase absorption, like inflammation agents (increasing blood capillary diameter or local blood pressure). Its a very complex mix of things that would need to be separated and evaluated individually to know for sure.
Like I posted in your other thread, I would consider the excipients and additives into the product you`re working on as enhancers as well. Glycols and alcohol additives certainly increase absorption.
So far our experiments with one small drop of enhancers spread over the films where fumaricD+MAOi were placed on top involved: DMSO (0.5% diluted H2O), propyleneglycol (1-10% diluted), glycerin (1-10% diluted), PPG+glycerin+menthol (10% diluted), alcohol (30%), coconut oil (pure), olive oil (pure), detergent (0.1% diluted) and mouthwash (has menthol, may have alcohol) and chitosan powder (a tiny taste only, well taste of shrimp in the end). All of these appear to present marginal increases in effects, 20-30% stronger perhaps (faster hit, more pronounced OEV-CEV), who knows, feels like its well inside the subjective error range if there is such a thing. Alcohol at 30% (it was just a small drop over the film) was an overkill as it left the sublingual spot burning for a while, which is annoying when you're high.
The film itself is the only thing that makes a very perceptive difference in our opinion, reducing time to hit, increasing intensity of effects, reducing body high (or low) and so on, we've recently tried doing it without the film and had to double the dose for it to clearly come on above baseline (from 40-50 initial hit to 80-100 mg Dimitri-MAOi).
Well, yes it could. Aloe vera has lots of saponins which are surfactants, going to break up that mucus layer. Oils or lipids might do that as well. Sugars might help with cell absorption (activating transporters). There may be other specific stuff in Aloe vera that actively increase absorption, like inflammation agents (increasing blood capillary diameter or local blood pressure). Its a very complex mix of things that would need to be separated and evaluated individually to know for sure.
Like I posted in your other thread, I would consider the excipients and additives into the product you`re working on as enhancers as well. Glycols and alcohol additives certainly increase absorption.
Ruffles, what was the maoi you used in the film and what was the dosage? Just wanted to thank you for all your posts, if it weren't for your posts, I would not have tried this myself, now I will continue to use this the rest of my life, super impressed! Do you have any pics?
ava69 said:
You mean you were able to do a film and sublingual use or you are talking about the transdermal aloe vera with ethanol? We will do a step by step film prep tek eventually.
Just remember that we are focused on sublingual fumaric DMT with MAOi on top of films to keep the magik glued to the mucosa, so our experiences may not apply to transdermal applications. I totally support your experimentation anyways, and I am following up on your reports which I find very bold.
So, our always sublingual using films dosing strategy is something like: 30-50 mg harmine-harmaline from caapi, wait 15-30 min (`body warms up` feeling comes) then 30-40 mg DMT (usually two films 15 mg each, one in each underside of tongue), at this point we prepare a bunch of 5-5 or 10-10 mg DMT-MAOi films for the night and leave in the table for the banquet, redosing goes like each 40 min or album or how we feel like it. Each film-patch hits after 10 min, peaks at 40-50 min in and drops afterwards, that's why we repatch after 40-50 min in. After 3 h in we reboost 30-50 mg of MAOi which significantly increases duration and intensity of DMT effects.
We always add a small amount of ``enhancer`` (which we listed before) on top of the films before adding the D and the M on top then dry the films, this helps to keep the powders stuck to the film, easier manipulation. We reached a consensus here that alcohol-free mouthwash with 1% DMSO has the best effects, plus it cuts a bit of the bitter DMT taste (MAOi is completely taste free). I won`t sugar coat it, very clean fumaric DMT is not a pleasurable taste at all, totally acquired or necessary strong bitter taste. I`m NOT talking about fumaric acid flavor which is actually nice, I`m talking about true weird bitter lingering taste. The unclean stuff is the worst, like first precipitation products, some residual solvent always remains in it and its a perceptible taste. Toluene and xylene are specially horrible. Isopropanol recrystallized fumaric D is the best, if there is such a thing.
We vape DMT when we feel safe to almost instantaneously bump up the visuals (10 mg freebase DMT per ml on 50-50 VG-PG nicotine free e-liquid, for those that don`t vape, 1 ml is a LOT of vaping to be done which is too much of clouds to do in 30 min or so, those 10 mg in 1 ml lasts 4 h which is a small amount of DMT to go in at any time), someone may argue that the vaping is what gets us high and DMT is not working sublingually, for which we experimented many times without vaping and the sublingual route works just fine, its just smoother. Vaping low concentrations like 10 mg per ml makes a big difference as its fast onset allows you to gauge how high you want to go. We have tried higher concentrations like 30-40 mg per ml, its nice but scary sometimes as it makes your body crash and we like dancing and walking around, we are not big fans of long breakthroughs on a long trip. For breakthroughs we prefer a bong-like apparatus to vaporize 30-40 mg in a one shot without harmalas.
Ruffles said:
Ruffles said:
From my end, complete instructions and pictures all updated for 1-1-2022 on sublingual HPBCD DMT & summary of over 44 sublingual experiences in a year's time, these experiences all much stronger than oral DMT by many factors. Zero nausea, zero dizziness, zero anxiety or un-easy feelings, deep head space, highly visual, strong open eyed and CEV's of spinning & dancing geometrics & real Ayahuasca visions, incredible music enhancement, way over the top open eyed beauty, neon colorful & highly euphoric, see trip reports bottom of post #1...will continue to use for the rest of my life, highly recommend:
From post #1:
My procedure:
1) place 60mg of DMT onto a spoon
2) add 1:1 molar ratio of host drug to HPBCD powder, this means 1:7 mg ratio DMT to HPBCD, use a 1:8 mg ratio DMT to HPBCD if you are using the 2-Hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin.
3) this means 60mg dmt placed on spoon, then add 420mg of HPBCD on top DMT, use 480mg HPBCD if you are using the 2-Hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin.
4) add 10 drops of very hot near boiling water to the mix from a nearby microwaved coffee mug for DMT doses of 90mg or below, use 12 drops of boiling hot water to mix DMT doses over 90mg (such as 100 to 120mg). 60mg DMT = +3 Shulgin level strength, 90 to 120mg = +5 Shulgin level life changing strength.
5) Knead or crush the HPBCD powder into the dmt using the end of a spoon for 2 minutes, scrape & mix everything back and forth hard using your muscles. This is how scientist pre-pare these complexes by kneading.
6) Hold a lighter under the spoon with flame around an inch or less away to heat up spoon for around 15 seconds or so to 110 degree F or more, so that complete dissolution or dissolving takes place, after heating up, mix the contents a little bit more before using.
see pics.
6) Take 150 to 300mg tetrahydroharmine orally around 45 minutes before. Place 35mg of freebase harmine under your tongue. Then place bottom of your tongue onto HPBCD complexed DMT spoon, the HPBCD DMT glob will all adhere as HPBCD powder forms sticky complexes. Be sure to take the 35mg harmine and HPBCD DMT under tongue all at the exact same time in order to activate the DMT strongly.
Hold under tongue for 10 to 12 or 15 minutes depending on dosage, press down with bottom of tongue the whole time to trap sticky liquid complex in the sublingual mucosa. Be sure to use bottom end of tongue to lick any off spoon that is left behind, you want to get it all.
At end of 15 minutes, spit out any saliva into a cup instead of swallowing. Gently relieve any saliva during the 15 minute period as comfort dictates by leaning your head forward and spitting into a cup, but keep your tongue pressed down any time you relieve saliva. There is a mild to moderate sting felt but it's so worth enduring for the effects in 22 minutes. The sting does not bother me at all. The tongue is completely fine afterwards (no burn), and it's as if nothing happened the next day.
For guests who can't log in, go here to Mycotopia: botanicals to see pics: https://mycotopia.net/topic/111610-hpbcd-dmt-sublingually-active-under-tongue/
Pic 1: 300mg pure white tetrahydroharmine taken 45 minutes earlier orally, 35mg brown freebase harmine taken sublingually at same time (under tongue) as 90mg DMT complexed to (90 x 7 = 630mg HPBCD, use 90 x 8 = 720mg if using the more common 2-HPBCD) in 10 drops of boiling hot water.
Pic 2: Notice Bic lighter, dropper, mug of microwaved boiling hot water, 90mg DMT was added to spoon with (90 x 7 = 630mg plain white HPBCD) and crushed + mixed well for 2 minutes on the spoon (scraping all together back & forth hard using your muscles) using the end of another spoon in 10 drops of boiling hot water, then lighter held under spoon for 15 seconds or so to complete the dissolution of the DMT into the HPBCD. After heating up, mix the contents a little bit more before using.
Pic 3: Notice how well the DMT dissolved or complexed into the HPBCD. Make sure your 35mg harmine fb is under your tongue 1st, then place your tongue onto spoon, the sticky HPBCD complexed DMT will all adhere, get ready for a very strong journey that begins in 22 minutes, and lasts for 90 minutes, at which time you can re-dose more sublingual harmine + HPBCD DMT up to 2 more times, each dose just as strong as 1st dose, for a 4.5 hour long journey with super-long afterglow beyond that. No need to ever take more THH as it has a half-life of 10.5 hours with peak at 5.25 hours.
Ahhh, I see thanks for detailed description Ruffles, keep up the good work!
Ruffles said:
I can tolerate the mild to moderate sting of the HPBCD complexed DMT sting sublingually, but many others may not be able to. It does not bother me at all, so worth the 10 minutes under tongue for the strong effects that start at 22 minutes in, and last 90 minutes.
From my end, complete instructions and pictures all updated for 1-1-2022 on sublingual HPBCD DMT & summary of over 44 sublingual experiences in a year's time, these experiences all much stronger than oral DMT by many factors. Zero nausea, zero dizziness, zero anxiety or un-easy feelings, deep head space, highly visual, strong open eyed and CEV's of spinning & dancing geometrics & real Ayahuasca visions, incredible music enhancement, way over the top open eyed beauty, neon colorful & highly euphoric, see trip reports bottom of post #1...will continue to use for the rest of my life, highly recommend:
From post #1:
My procedure:
1) place 60mg of DMT onto a spoon
2) add 1:1 molar ratio of host drug to HPBCD powder, this means 1:7 mg ratio DMT to HPBCD, use a 1:8 mg ratio DMT to HPBCD if you are using the 2-Hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin.
3) this means 60mg dmt placed on spoon, then add 420mg of HPBCD on top DMT, use 480mg HPBCD if you are using the 2-Hydroxypropyl-β-cyclodextrin.
4) add 10 drops of very hot near boiling water to the mix from a nearby microwaved coffee mug for DMT doses of 90mg or below, use 12 drops of boiling hot water to mix DMT doses over 90mg (such as 100 to 120mg). 60mg DMT = +3 Shulgin level strength, 90 to 120mg = +5 Shulgin level life changing strength.
5) Knead or crush the HPBCD powder into the dmt using the end of a spoon for 2 minutes, scrape & mix everything back and forth hard using your muscles. This is how scientist pre-pare these complexes by kneading.
6) Hold a lighter under the spoon with flame around an inch or less away to heat up spoon for around 15 seconds or so to 110 degree F or more, so that complete dissolution or dissolving takes place, after heating up, mix the contents a little bit more before using.
see pics.
6) Take 150 to 300mg tetrahydroharmine orally around 45 minutes before. Place 35mg of freebase harmine under your tongue. Then place bottom of your tongue onto HPBCD complexed DMT spoon, the HPBCD DMT glob will all adhere as HPBCD powder forms sticky complexes. Be sure to take the 35mg harmine and HPBCD DMT under tongue all at the exact same time in order to activate the DMT strongly.
Hold under tongue for 10 to 12 or 15 minutes depending on dosage, press down with bottom of tongue the whole time to trap sticky liquid complex in the sublingual mucosa. Be sure to use bottom end of tongue to lick any off spoon that is left behind, you want to get it all.
At end of 15 minutes, spit out any saliva into a cup instead of swallowing. Gently relieve any saliva during the 15 minute period as comfort dictates by leaning your head forward and spitting into a cup, but keep your tongue pressed down any time you relieve saliva. There is a mild to moderate sting felt but it's so worth enduring for the effects in 22 minutes. The sting does not bother me at all. The tongue is completely fine afterwards (no burn), and it's as if nothing happened the next day.
For guests who can't log in, go here to Mycotopia: botanicals to see pics: https://mycotopia.net/topic/111610-hpbcd-dmt-sublingually-active-under-tongue/
Pic 1: 300mg pure white tetrahydroharmine taken 45 minutes earlier orally, 35mg brown freebase harmine taken sublingually at same time (under tongue) as 90mg DMT complexed to (90 x 7 = 630mg HPBCD, use 90 x 8 = 720mg if using the more common 2-HPBCD) in 10 drops of boiling hot water.
Pic 2: Notice Bic lighter, dropper, mug of microwaved boiling hot water, 90mg DMT was added to spoon with (90 x 7 = 630mg plain white HPBCD) and crushed + mixed well for 2 minutes on the spoon (scraping all together back & forth hard using your muscles) using the end of another spoon in 10 drops of boiling hot water, then lighter held under spoon for 15 seconds or so to complete the dissolution of the DMT into the HPBCD. After heating up, mix the contents a little bit more before using.
Pic 3: Notice how well the DMT dissolved or complexed into the HPBCD. Make sure your 35mg harmine fb is under your tongue 1st, then place your tongue onto spoon, the sticky HPBCD complexed DMT will all adhere, get ready for a very strong journey that begins in 22 minutes, and lasts for 90 minutes, at which time you can re-dose more sublingual harmine + HPBCD DMT up to 2 more times, each dose just as strong as 1st dose, for a 4.5 hour long journey with super-long afterglow beyond that. No need to ever take more THH as it has a half-life of 10.5 hours with peak at 5.25 hours.
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Yes, completely agreed upon. I understand why people wouldn`t want to taste any of it, specially while high, and some people puke just by tasting it, so its obviously not for everyone. ``Biofilms`` under the tongue reduces the taste while it is patched, but it will move eventually and it will make the taste noticeable, so, it doesn`t solve that problem. Its solvable with a candy or fruit or something to wash it off. Your transdermal approaches are good options too.
Whichever way it goes we all need peer reproducibility and that takes some time anyways.
