smokeydaze
Dragunov Mylshka Teapot
Ya but I'm just wondering if you can share the pics of the very very clean product, as a comparison/bench mark.Phlux- said:
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Swims Peganum Harmala Extraction
- Thread starter Phlux-
- Start date
swim wanted to give someone a few hundred mg, so that portion was cleaned and given away - swim only has the stuff in the last picture still, swims been to busy playing with jorkests new tek so he hasnt had time to play with harmaloids recently.
smokeydaze
Dragunov Mylshka Teapot
All good, whenever you can or if anyone else has pics of very clean stuff - just an interest to see if it actually turns white or an off white and how many washes were required. If you used your very first result and on a separate occasion used the very clean result, at the same dose, what difference do you think there might be?
MagikVenom
Rising Star
I just found this thread good post!8)
nice scale what did you pay for that if you do not mind me asking
nice scale what did you pay for that if you do not mind me asking
I've never got clear/white crystals from rue, but I have had very very white/tannish crystals from many washes and a difference in potency was noticeable. I used 200mg as an MAOI and was getting visual effect from it before even ingesting the DMT. 200mg of my usual brownish extract would not do this. It was almost as if I had consumed an extra 1/3 of the dose.
No pictures though... really should get a decent camera.
No pictures though... really should get a decent camera.
Garulfo
Rising Star
SWIM is wondering... what's the purpose of cleaning the extract (except for aesthetical reasons which are good ones tough)?
SWIM has some crude extract (no washes). Using it sublingualy works fine (no nausea), it is slightly salted but what's wrong with it ?
Also it was not freebased, what would add the freebasing ?
SWIM has some crude extract (no washes). Using it sublingualy works fine (no nausea), it is slightly salted but what's wrong with it ?
Also it was not freebased, what would add the freebasing ?
Ok so with regards to heat, nothing wrong with using a little heat to speed the process along. Worst thing that could happen is maybe a little harmaline ends up degrading into harmine, no big deal there. Means it might be a little less powerful but will also be a lot "smoother." Harmine itself is pretty stable, there's not a whole lot you can do to hurt it.
Swim often uses the heat from an empty crock pot (~200 F) to dry his 'loids, by placing the filter in a mesh strainer and setting the strainer so it's in the crock pot but not directly touching anything.
I'm surprised to hear you lost 3/4 of your 'loids during the wash. Swim only lost like 4% last time he checked...
When washing, use the minimum amount of water necessary to get 'em clean. Also if you're worried about losing stuff you can always keep the wash water and maybe evap it or try to reprecipitate by basifying it again. Swim tried basifying his wash water once and nothing precipitated, reinforcing his belief that it's ok to use distilled.
As for ILPT's concerns...
First, there is no need to check pH at any stage during this procedure. You really can't add "too much" sodium carbonate, within reason... it's not like it'll hurt anything, at worst you're just wasting sodium carbonate. Anyway why check the pH at any point? It's not ignorance of chemistry, just trying to avoid unnecessary complications.
Doing repeated NaCl washes or precips is indeed another way of cleaning the 'loids, it's just not swim's preferred way. You make a good point, and swim may indeed try this at some time in the future... but he still advocates washing the fb to remove any residual sodium carbonate, so since he's gonna be doing that anyway he doesn't see any real point in taking the extra time to do another NaCl wash first. Usually one good wash of the fb is all it takes to get 'em to a satisfactory level of cleanliness by his standards.
To answer the question of why fb is better, mainly cuz it can be smoked... also it doesn't taste as bad cuz it has to react with the acids in saliva to form salts before it can be absorbed and tasted.
I don't know why ILPT speaks of boiling off gar, there's no need to boil anything off in this tek... it's all just precip, pour off excess, and filter.
Also thanks for mentioning that yes, if precipping at ~pH8, it's not a perfect separation. But I really don't see any point in separating the plant spirit any further anyway, personally...
Swim often uses the heat from an empty crock pot (~200 F) to dry his 'loids, by placing the filter in a mesh strainer and setting the strainer so it's in the crock pot but not directly touching anything.
I'm surprised to hear you lost 3/4 of your 'loids during the wash. Swim only lost like 4% last time he checked...
When washing, use the minimum amount of water necessary to get 'em clean. Also if you're worried about losing stuff you can always keep the wash water and maybe evap it or try to reprecipitate by basifying it again. Swim tried basifying his wash water once and nothing precipitated, reinforcing his belief that it's ok to use distilled.
As for ILPT's concerns...
First, there is no need to check pH at any stage during this procedure. You really can't add "too much" sodium carbonate, within reason... it's not like it'll hurt anything, at worst you're just wasting sodium carbonate. Anyway why check the pH at any point? It's not ignorance of chemistry, just trying to avoid unnecessary complications.
Doing repeated NaCl washes or precips is indeed another way of cleaning the 'loids, it's just not swim's preferred way. You make a good point, and swim may indeed try this at some time in the future... but he still advocates washing the fb to remove any residual sodium carbonate, so since he's gonna be doing that anyway he doesn't see any real point in taking the extra time to do another NaCl wash first. Usually one good wash of the fb is all it takes to get 'em to a satisfactory level of cleanliness by his standards.
To answer the question of why fb is better, mainly cuz it can be smoked... also it doesn't taste as bad cuz it has to react with the acids in saliva to form salts before it can be absorbed and tasted.
I don't know why ILPT speaks of boiling off gar, there's no need to boil anything off in this tek... it's all just precip, pour off excess, and filter.
Also thanks for mentioning that yes, if precipping at ~pH8, it's not a perfect separation. But I really don't see any point in separating the plant spirit any further anyway, personally...
kemist
John
No boil it of whole just boil the acetic acid off to reach pH 7 then let it chill down and they should be some interesting precip. waitingSyZyGyPSy said:
It`s happened recently and ILPT didn`t manage repeat the same experiment again, today glass jar broke down and goodies were spilt everywhere
damn
okay so hopefully someone will read this - swim took some impure freebase harmala alkys from the cleanup of this tek - disolved them in dlimonene - and left it - at first it was yellow - then over about 4-5 days it became red - very red - as in harmala red - so that answers a question - harmala red can be created in dlimonene as with alcahol.
there is still a fair amount of sediment - swim intends to try this with harmaline and harmine separate next.
there is still a fair amount of sediment - swim intends to try this with harmaline and harmine separate next.
Thanks for the report on harmala red. Did anyone ever figure out if this stuff is good for dye, or anything else for that matter?
While we're at it, does anyone know the original recipe for Turkish Red? Swim wants to make some sacred dye with which to imbue magickal clothing n' stuff...
While we're at it, does anyone know the original recipe for Turkish Red? Swim wants to make some sacred dye with which to imbue magickal clothing n' stuff...
Well ,the whole harmala red issue seems -it might not be, but it seems- easy to crack:
If one wants to see if its an oxidation product ,harmine/harmaline mixture or even better seperately can be added to hydrogen peroxide, let the reaction take place and see if it becomes red.
Same with addition of alcohol:If there is red to be seen it will be seen.I think i spoke with a member that did the alcohol experiment and found it became red.On the other hand,was it whiterasta that extracted with alcohol and had no such problems? Look here,seems it worked like a charm!
Now the interesting part would be the elucidation of what is harmala red once it is formed: Here, i am afraid we need someone with analytical equiment (NMR, spectometry) to compare the initial harmine-harmaline-mixture of them to the harmala red that will be formed by them ,so we can have a structure.Given such equipment are not in...everyones basement, i think that this step might take some time.
If one wants to see if its an oxidation product ,harmine/harmaline mixture or even better seperately can be added to hydrogen peroxide, let the reaction take place and see if it becomes red.
Same with addition of alcohol:If there is red to be seen it will be seen.I think i spoke with a member that did the alcohol experiment and found it became red.On the other hand,was it whiterasta that extracted with alcohol and had no such problems? Look here,seems it worked like a charm!
Now the interesting part would be the elucidation of what is harmala red once it is formed: Here, i am afraid we need someone with analytical equiment (NMR, spectometry) to compare the initial harmine-harmaline-mixture of them to the harmala red that will be formed by them ,so we can have a structure.Given such equipment are not in...everyones basement, i think that this step might take some time.
proposed expeiment
harmine disolved in water - h202 added - solution evapped
harmaline disolved in water - h202 added - solution evapped
harmine disolved in isopropanol - h202 added - solution evapped
harmine disolved in isopropanol - h202 added - solution evapped
does this sound like the best experiment to be doing here ?
harmine disolved in water - h202 added - solution evapped
harmaline disolved in water - h202 added - solution evapped
harmine disolved in isopropanol - h202 added - solution evapped
harmine disolved in isopropanol - h202 added - solution evapped
does this sound like the best experiment to be doing here ?
Ah Phlux, if only we could work in a fully equiped lab together 8) .Others are welcome too!
The experiment is sound,you even got your controls there to compare, and you have seperated the two to see if redening is specific to one of the two.Should this fail, a mixture of harmaline-harmine could be used, the logic behind it being some interaction between the two ( i doubt it ,but for sake of experimentation i document my thought).I am of the mentality of thoughts being documented for the next one who comes along.
Also,if possible try one variation at a time ,for example use equal amounts of solvents for each ,equal concentrations.
Some considerations, food for thought:
1)Is redening mentioned with every alcohol? If yes, any alcohol could do, if its specific to ethanol then ethanol should be preffered. From what it seems the reddening is NOT specific, in other words its not a reaction that is done only with alcohol given that the color change has been observed with other solvents such as limonene -dont quote me on this, i also hear acetone could have the same effect-.
2)If we suppose its an oxidation product, should a side experiment with H2O2 be run which is known to be a good oxidant.H2O2 sounds also like a good,straightforward candidate and if harmalas are so sensitive to oxidation ,hydrogen peroxide should make short work of them and give us nice red color,propably in bigger amounts than only alcohol. This is just a hypothesis.
3)Should heat factor be implemented, that is have the samples heated? It could speed up things although it could be introducing another variable.
4)How about timing? I mean how long do you think it would be advisable to let them sit into solution? I dont know how quickly the hypothesised reaction occurs.
5)Given that any experiment gives harmala red,would it be wise to consider a bioassay? Here other variables come to play ,for example the starting material to be converted would have to be a dosage of known effects to the experimenter so as to note if any new effects are present or if other effects are absent.
The above are not "disagreements", they are merery further mental stimulation. So far i find the experiment proposed by Phlux rather interesting and a very good start!!!
Crystalito approves!
The experiment is sound,you even got your controls there to compare, and you have seperated the two to see if redening is specific to one of the two.Should this fail, a mixture of harmaline-harmine could be used, the logic behind it being some interaction between the two ( i doubt it ,but for sake of experimentation i document my thought).I am of the mentality of thoughts being documented for the next one who comes along.
Also,if possible try one variation at a time ,for example use equal amounts of solvents for each ,equal concentrations.
Some considerations, food for thought:
1)Is redening mentioned with every alcohol? If yes, any alcohol could do, if its specific to ethanol then ethanol should be preffered. From what it seems the reddening is NOT specific, in other words its not a reaction that is done only with alcohol given that the color change has been observed with other solvents such as limonene -dont quote me on this, i also hear acetone could have the same effect-.
2)If we suppose its an oxidation product, should a side experiment with H2O2 be run which is known to be a good oxidant.H2O2 sounds also like a good,straightforward candidate and if harmalas are so sensitive to oxidation ,hydrogen peroxide should make short work of them and give us nice red color,propably in bigger amounts than only alcohol. This is just a hypothesis.
3)Should heat factor be implemented, that is have the samples heated? It could speed up things although it could be introducing another variable.
4)How about timing? I mean how long do you think it would be advisable to let them sit into solution? I dont know how quickly the hypothesised reaction occurs.
5)Given that any experiment gives harmala red,would it be wise to consider a bioassay? Here other variables come to play ,for example the starting material to be converted would have to be a dosage of known effects to the experimenter so as to note if any new effects are present or if other effects are absent.
The above are not "disagreements", they are merery further mental stimulation. So far i find the experiment proposed by Phlux rather interesting and a very good start!!!
Crystalito approves!
What quantites were added of each and what concentration was the H2O2? Upon addition of H2O2 what did the reaction look like?
Also as a sidecheck try adding some H2O2 in acidified (HCl) IPA to see if these two (three actually) react,if you notice the same kind of behaviour. Secondary alcohols like IPA can be oxidized to ketones, but i think stronger oxidants are used : either concentrated H2O2 , or more usually KMnO4 -harsher chemicals-.
How long do you plan leaving it to react?
Bravo on the experiments!
Also as a sidecheck try adding some H2O2 in acidified (HCl) IPA to see if these two (three actually) react,if you notice the same kind of behaviour. Secondary alcohols like IPA can be oxidized to ketones, but i think stronger oxidants are used : either concentrated H2O2 , or more usually KMnO4 -harsher chemicals-.
How long do you plan leaving it to react?
Bravo on the experiments!
ok as it stands
b = bottle
hcl1 = 100ml water + 4 drops hcl
hcl2 = 100ml iso + 4 drops hcl
b1 : 50mg harmine + 2ml water + 12 drops hcl1 + 1ml h2o2(40)
b2 : 50mg harmine + 2ml iso + 12 drops hcl2 + 1ml h2o2(40)
b3 : 50mg harmaline + 2ml water + 12 drops hcl1 + 1ml h2o2(40)
b4 : 50mg harmaline + 2ml iso + 12 drops hcl2 + 1ml h2o2(40)
I did this when i made the post and some of the solutions are still bubbling
Il make up a control bottle excluding the harmine/harmaline with iso and hcl and h2o2
b = bottle
hcl1 = 100ml water + 4 drops hcl
hcl2 = 100ml iso + 4 drops hcl
b1 : 50mg harmine + 2ml water + 12 drops hcl1 + 1ml h2o2(40)
b2 : 50mg harmine + 2ml iso + 12 drops hcl2 + 1ml h2o2(40)
b3 : 50mg harmaline + 2ml water + 12 drops hcl1 + 1ml h2o2(40)
b4 : 50mg harmaline + 2ml iso + 12 drops hcl2 + 1ml h2o2(40)
I did this when i made the post and some of the solutions are still bubbling
Il make up a control bottle excluding the harmine/harmaline with iso and hcl and h2o2