Tetrahydroharmine (THH) and DMT taken orally

[69ron]

THH gets destroyed by MAO-A in the gut, that’s why it’s more potent when snorted or taken sublingually. That’s also why it’s an MAO-A inhibitor because it rapidly uses up all the MAO-A enzymes.

Are you completely sure about that? I thought THH itself was a mao-a inhibitor. Harmine and harmaline is also more potent when taken sublingually. They all are VERY badly absorbed orally. I have read that the bioavailability of harmine is about 3%.

I'm sorry, I said that wrong. I didn't mean destroyed. I meant bound, made inactive. THH binds to MAO-A in the gut and is prevented from going into the blood stream until all MAO-A enzymes are inactivated. It's this very action that makes it a reversible MAO-A inhibitor. While it's bound to MAO-A, it's acting as an MAO-A inhibitor. If all the MAO-A enzymes are already bound to harmaline, then when THH in ingested, it passes right through the digestive system unhindered and goes directly into the blood stream. The same is true if THH is taken followed by harmaline.

When taken sublingually, it bypasses all the MAO-A enzymes in the digestive system and so it's more potent in psychoactive effects, but not more potent as an MAOI for the digestive system.

You get it?

 

[prottel]

You get it?

I understand what you are saying. Only thing is I am not sure that it is correct.

Do you mean the same thing applies to harmine and harmaline as THH? Could you predose with harmaline to make harmine go directly into the bloodstream?

If that were the case, then I do not understand how harmine can have a bioavailability of 3%.

Harmine, THH, and harmine are MAO-A inhibitors. That is why they are poorly absorbed. They get bound to MAO-A in the gut instead of going into your blood stream. That's how they work. If they didn't bind to MAO-A in the gut, they wouldn't be MAO inhibitors. All MAOIs are poorly absorbed orally because they bind to MAO enzymes in the gut and get inactivated.

If what you have said here and in another recent thread is correct, then wouldn't harmine at a certain level be just as active as when taken sublingually, since all the MAO-A in the gut has been inactivated? Clearly, that does not seem to be correct.

 

[69ron]

It's correct.

If you take enough THH, eventually you inactivate all MAO-A enzymes in the gut and then the THH itself can enter the blood stream and cause psychedelic effects.

That is why the effective MAOI dose and the effective psychedelic doses are different. The effective MAOI dose of THH is 150-200 mg. The effective psychedelic dose is 350-400 mg. Once you go past a certain level, it suddenly becomes a new experience because its able to pass into the blood stream rapidly. It takes about 200 mg of THH to bind to all MAO-A in the gut. Once that happens any more that is taken, passes right through.

If you take 100 mg of THH, 200 mg of THH, 300 mg of THH, it's the same experience. It's not psychedelic. When you take 350-400 mg it suddenly becomes psychedelic because all the MAO-A enzymes are inactivated and so it's now able to pass into the brain.

 

[69ron]

It's a fact that MAOIs make other MAOIs more potent.

If you took 100 mg of harmaline, it would effectively bind to all the MAO-A enzymes in the gut so that THH would not have to. Then THH would not need to work as an MAO-A inhibitor and be able to pass right through the gut because the harmaline already did the MAO-A business.

 

[69ron]

It's like this.

You take 150 mg of THH and it binds to 50% of your MAO-A enzymes leaving the other 50% active.

You take 150 mg more THH and it binds to 50% more MAO-A enzymes leaving none active.

You take 150 mg more THH and with no more MAO-A enzymes left to bind to, it passes right through your gut and now causes psychedelic effects instead of MAOI effects. It is now "activated".


You could instead use harmaline to "activate" THH like this:

You take 100 mg of harmaline to bind to all 100% of your MAO-A enzymes leaving none active.

You take 150 mg THH and with no more MAO-A enzymes left to bind to, it passes right through your gut and now causes psychedelic effects instead of MAOI effects. It is now "activated".

You get it?

You could use THH to activate itself, or use harmaline (which is cheaper) to activate THH.

 

[amor_fati]

Hmm, SWIM's decided that after he tries out this caapi copy stuff, he's probably to try taking harmaline, harmine, and THH separately in the that order. He would take the bare minimum of harmaline for full MAOI activity, then take enough harmine to hopefully counter-act some of sleepiness of harmaline, then take THH followed shortly by DMT to finally blast off.

SWIM would venture to guess that this probably isn't far off from simly taking three separate doses of caapi, but possibly more efficient and refined.

Edit:
Ha! That's creepy, 69ron.

 

[Nobuoni]

Quick questions'
If drinking vine 75-150 grams is psycho-active'
Ingested 300mg of Harmine hcl Rue extract' it is only slightly psycho-active' as in deffinite effect' but~~~~~~|
Kind of like popping an SSRI' some pressure in the head' slight hightened colours' expanded conciousness' going no where' no CEV or EOV strobbing'
Through the slight up fuzzy effect there is a deffinite anti-depressant tone'
No nausia' a mild experience' long lasting' no motion sickness' kind of prickly head' stimulating'

With 150 grams of vine after the purge' the vine hits hard' bringing visions and great introspection'

Is this of what would normaly be experienced off of 300mg Harmine hcl' ?
Of what dose oraly is Harmine hcl psycho-active ?
Of what dose oraly is Harmine freebase psycho-active ?
Is it better to take these under the tongue ?

Expected was something comparable to a vine only experience'
300 mg is insufficient as a comparable effect to 75 grams of vine'

This feels more like 500 mg of Silene Capensis' quite stimulating in a hard to explain sort of way'
Took the best part of 3 hours to peak and has been going 8 hours' has took 8 hours to reach desired effect'
Very clear anti-depressant' crystal clear colours' stimulating in an almost edgey' fuzzy way'
Extra kick after eating!

Any input on Rhodolia Rosea and Harmine would be greatly appreciated ))

Thanks'

Blessings

Nobuoni +

 

[69ron]

Quick questions'
If drinking vine 75-150 grams is psycho-active'
Ingested 300mg of Harmine hcl Rue extract' it is only slightly psycho-active' as in deffinite effect' but~~~~~~|
Kind of like popping an SSRI' some pressure in the head' slight hightened colours' expanded conciousness' going no where' no CEV or EOV strobbing'
Through the slight up fuzzy effect there is a deffinite anti-depressant tone'
No nausia' a mild experience' long lasting' no motion sickness' kind of prickly head' stimulating'

With 150 grams of vine after the purge' the vine hits hard' bringing visions and great introspection'

Is this of what would normaly be experienced off of 300mg Harmine hcl' ?

First off, a rue extract is not harmine HCl. It’s mixture of harmine HCl and harmaline HCl. Because harmaline is about twice as potent as harmine and roughly 50% of the alkaloids present in rue, it’s the primary effect you get from ingesting a rue alkaloid extract.

Don’t be confused. Harmine HCl does not feel like a rue extract does. It’s very different and more hallucinogenic than a rue extract is. Rue is primarily a harmaline experience.

Vine is very different. Vine contains almost equal amounts of harmine and THH, and almost no harmaline. That’s why it’s so different.

Of what dose oraly is Harmine hcl psycho-active ?

Again, a rue alkaloid extract is NOT just harmine HCl. It’s about 50% harmaline, which is a drug with very different effects from harmine.

For SWIM the following dose information is pretty consistent. Other people may require more or less to achieve the same effects as SWIM.

Full MAOI doses for SWIM:
200 mg of harmine HCl
100 mg of harmaline HCl
200 mg of THH HCl

Psychoactive doses for SWIM:
250 mg of harmine HCl
150 mg of harmaline HCl
350 mg of THH HCl

They are all psychoactive in different ways. THH is most DMT or LSD-like. Harmaline is the most like marijuana, and harmine is sort of in between the two with more stimulant effects. Harmaline is the most dreamy and sedating. Harmine is more “psychedelic” than harmaline. THH is the most “psychedelic” but requires much larger doses. That’s how it is for SWIM, but not everyone is the same.

A mix if THH and harmine is most like caapi. A mix of harmine and harmaline is most like rue. When these are combined, new effects are felt that aren’t present when they are taken in isolated form.

Of what dose oraly is Harmine freebase psycho-active ?

It’s just slightly less. The dose is 80% the dose of the HCl form.

Is it better to take these under the tongue ?

They are all many times more psychoactive when taken sublingually rather than orally.

Expected was something comparable to a vine only experience'
300 mg is insufficient as a comparable effect to 75 grams of vine'

This feels more like 500 mg of Silene Capensis' quite stimulating in a hard to explain sort of way'
Took the best part of 3 hours to peak and has been going 8 hours' has took 8 hours to reach desired effect'
Very clear anti-depressant' crystal clear colours' stimulating in an almost edgey' fuzzy way'
Extra kick after eating!

Again, harmine is NOT the same as caapi no matter what dose you take. Caapi is primarily a mix of harmine and THH. Without the THH, the experience is not at all the same as caapi. THH is almost totally different from harmine. It feels almost nothing like harmine and the psychedelic state produced by it is also quite distinct from that of harmine.

 

[SoCal]

69ron, you are putting a lot of emphasis on binding the MAO-A enzymes in the gut, but that is only a concern when taken orally and swallowed correct? If taken sublingually so that it rests under the tongue will a much lower dose have the same effect or do you still need to offset the MAO-A enzymes?

 

[69ron]

69ron, you are putting a lot of emphasis on binding the MAO-A enzymes in the gut, but that is only a concern when taken orally and swallowed correct?

Yes. That’s right.

If taken sublingually so that it rests under the tongue will a much lower dose have the same effect or do you still need to offset the MAO-A enzymes?

If taken under the tongue a much lower dose will have the same effect as a higher oral dose does because it doesn’t need to offset the MAO-A enzymes in the gut.

The main psychoactive effects of these harmala alkaloids occur after all the MAO-A enzymes in the gut are bound. That applies if taken orally. If taken sublingually without swallowing it, you pretty much bypass that whole system so they are psychoactive at much lower doses.

 

[Nobuoni]

Much appreciated 69Ron' it seems it would have got un-comfortable to increase the dose over 300mg' so looks to get a massive bucket and do this extraction on vine ))
Lingering effects the following day' but far far from any decent vine experience' Would have potentiated spice very well' the inhibition was greatly recognised'
Mild anti-depressant effect still going'

Blessings

Nobuoni +

 

[Nobuoni]

Some accounts say to cook the Harmaline gently in HCL acid solution to gently oxidise it' converting Harmaline to Harmine hcl'
Any ideas of what ph to aim for' Ph1-2 ?
Then gently boil off the water and HCL acid and dry the resultant product ?
Harmine HCL ?

Harmine hcl in salt water solution based with ammonia solution gives Harmaline freebase'
Harmaline hcl in salt water solution based with ammonia solution gived Harmaline freebase'
Harmine hcl in H2O' based with ammonia gives Harmine freebase'
Harmaline hcl in H2O' based with ammonia solution gives Harmaline freebase'
Harmaline hcl cooked in HCL acid solution gives Harmine hcl'

Any thoughts ?


Much appreciate your input 69ron and all you folks'

Blessings

Nobuoni +

 

[Espiridion]

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69ron, <whew> you always knew you have would have to one day type it all out and break it all down. Thanks. I think this has cleared up alot of grey area for everyone.

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HATS OFF TO 69ron!!!
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much gratitude!
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[JesusJuice]

This might sound stupid but what about taking THH or any of these other compounds rectally?

Like would it burn if i put it in a gel tab and did it rectally, i know you can do other chemicals like this at lower doses.

 

[starway7]

Now this report looks positive on the THH and DMT combo!

I may try this ...[simple spice and thh combo]... in low dose and see what happens..

The combo appears to work...[oraly] with all my vaping...ive never tryed it orally!

has anyone else tryed this combo?

 

[starway7]

this below .... is copy of old post that inspired my intrest in trying the combo orally....



Tetrahydroharmine (THH) and DMT taken orally Options

69ron
#1
Posted : 11/29/2008 12:23:26 PM
QUOTE

DMT-Nexus member


Posts: 5826
Joined: 09-Jun-2008
Last visit: 08-Sep-2010
Location: USA
SWIM did a test. He wanted to see if THH could activate DMT by itself.

He mixed 200 mg of THH HCl with 20 mg of freebase DMT in 1 glass of water along with 100 mg of citric acid to make the DMT dissolve.

He drank it down. Effects started at about 10 minutes with a unusual tryptamine feeling. At 30 minutes the effects were just starting to get really intense. It peaked at about 45 minutes. At 1 hour it was definitely fading but not quickly.

During the peak, the psychedelic state was quite intense. There were DMT visuals as expected (never as nice as bufotenine visuals though). The DMT overwhelmed the feeling of the THH. Even during the peak when the psychedelic effects are almost unmanageable, the mind still remained very clear and focused. SWIM was able to visualize people at will. It was quite remarkable. There was a very intense rush of energy during the peak. SWIM could not sit still and had to dance it off, which was a lot of fun.

SWIM was actually quite surprised at the intensity of the experience.

So to activate 20 mg of DMT, 200 mg of tetrahydroharmine hydrochloride is very effective.
PLEASE DO NOT PM ME.
I do not answer PMs! I delete all PMs no matter who they are from, even from a good friend. I don't have time for the PMs. I have very little free time. If you have a question just post it in a threadSmile

All my posts are hypothetical and for educational/entertainment purposes, and are not an endorsement of said activities. SWIM (a fictional character based on other people) either obtained a license for said activity, did said activity where it is legal to do so, or as in most cases the activity is completely fictional.

 

[Mitakuye Oyasin]

Thanks for the info. 69ron had some great info back in the day. Hope they are well these days. ;-)

 

[shroombee]

I came across some posts, but can't find them now, with conjecture that 69ron was actually using THH mixed with harmine. Pure THH is a very weak RIMA, like 100x weaker than harmine or harmaline. Thus in theory it should NOT orally activate DMT.

I recently tried pharmahuasca with 100 mg harmine, 66 mg THH, 22 mg DMT. It was very active for me. I can try a test of just THH and a little DMT to see if maybe there is something worth reporting on.

BTW, starway7 - nice that you picked up the Liftmode THH. :thumb_up:

 

[starway7]

I came across some posts, but can't find them now, with conjecture that 69ron was actually using THH mixed with harmine. Pure THH is a very weak RIMA, like 100x weaker than harmine or harmaline. Thus in theory it should NOT orally activate DMT.

I recently tried pharmahuasca with 100 mg harmine, 66 mg THH, 22 mg DMT. It was very active for me. I can try a test of just THH and a little DMT to see if maybe there is something worth reporting on.

BTW, starway7 - nice that you picked up the Liftmode THH. :thumb_up:

Shroomby...Everytyhing I read claimed only .....THH with DMT!

Maybe there is something hadent read yet?





And yes ...[,..the 5 grams]... of THH was about 70 dollars!

But much cheaper!... than in 2008 when is was very rare.... and atleast 40 dollars per gram!


I have yet to sample mine...

 

[shroombee]

Shroomby...Everytyhing I read claimed only .....THH with DMT!

Maybe there is something hadent read yet?

This thread does not have any of the conjecture that 69ron's THH was mixed with harmine. I read it somewhere else, maybe not even on the Nexus.