The case for Diet

[nen888]

in another thread the following discourse ocurred: (edited)
nen888:

.the brews the McKenna's took (and had analysed) had 3-4 times the required amount of caapi..while keeping the dmt at 30-40mg..this (a classic 'jungle' brew) is intensely purgative and visual (complete with deep synaesthesia), however the style of visuals is not the 'standard' dmt kind, but far more photo-reality/dreamlike..and this lasts a lot longer..more like 8-12 hours..
..when i had a chance to chat with Terence he commented on how profound and not simply 'dmt-like' these deep amazonian brews were..they may be a diminishing tradition..
..the more modern kind of brew with less MAOI and more dmt (think santo diame) are less demanding on the system, though arguably not as far reaching in certain ways..

.
jamie:

brews like that go for up to 48 hours in my experience. The main effect has gone for 10-12 hours for me but it took about 48 hours to stop feeling some weird sense of movement and a day for the tracers to go away etc. There was like 10 minutes of DMT like effect and then 10 hours of visions. Like harmala visions but more colorful and overlaid with some fractals. I was so god damn sick every time all night though that I couldn't really pay attention to the visions for more than short periods of time. The nausea for me at that level in just unbearable. I really hate it.

Brews with 6-7 grams of rue were also really long nights where I had to rest for the next day with extended periods of nausea and tracers.

On one occasion with way too much vine(so much that I literally could not walk without the world spinning) the synesthesia was so strong it was just disorienting. I was even experiencing some kind of synesthesia with water droplets in the air and I could hear the molecules in my hand interact with molecules in the air(it was foggy) and it would make visuals of electro magnetic field sort of things. It was not a pleasant experience, I kept dissolving into it and freaking out.

..i think in this older style of ayahuasca (& it's called 'ayahuasca', not aya+chacruna) the shamans are going for something deeper than simply orally activating DMT
..when i first studied ayahuasca the diet was really emphasised, and a typical deep amazonian experience would involve several sessions of being very, very sick until 'cleaned out' enough for the visions to flow..

now, in the past i've done many sessions with quite a few people over the years (with p. harmala also) at different strengths..and i can say this of a strong brew..as i'm one of the few people who really follows a diet (up to a week or more before drinking) i'm also usually the only one in a strong-brew session who isn't nauseous and doesn't purge..in the meantime the rest of the group is being violently ill (to differing degrees, i say based on their accumulated diet)
..the advantage of not purging or feeling ill (e.g. even on 5-6 grams or more of p. harmala) is that one can hold the space for the session..look after people..move buckets..sing etc..
this is what curanderos taught me..

why would you want to MAO inhibit at a level way past where DMT is orally activated? because here lies the dreamworlds..of shapeshifing..of realms whispered of the jungle lore..it's way more than DMT..


now, i think the constant emphasis on Tyramine as the thing to watch out for is a red herring..there are many compounds in a range of foods that, once MAOI inhibition is strong enough, can interfere with the system..
in my own dietary scheme i emphasise avoiding sugar, dried fruit, beer, chocolate, lentils, chick peas, fried food, avocados, cheese, anything pickled or fermented, yoghurt, & red meat as the worst culprits..i say they not only bring nausea but block or cloud/confuse visions..
also, there are many possible synergistic effects with drugs/medications in MAOI land..e.g. tyramine is not a problem on MAOI medication Moclombomide.. but if combined with the usually just MAO-B inhibiting Seligenine, then tyramine can induce a hypotensive crisis..things just aren't simple, or on/off in MAOI world..

while traditions of dieta may have devolved into superstition and illogic, i sincerely believe the origins came from the same wisdom that worked out ayahuasca+chacruna (and many other things) in the first place..
.

 

[jamie]

The one thing I always have to avoid otherwise drinking rue or caapi is unbearable, is spices. Spices are my worst enemy if I want to drink ayahuasca.

 

[nen888]

ps..if i don't follow my diet i purge like most people..

which isn't a bad thing in itself..it can feel liberating..
but there's a reason my gut wants to throw it out..
and it's not the DMT my gut's got a problem with..
.

 

[nen888]

The one thing I always have to avoid otherwise drinking rue or caapi is unbearable, is spices. Spices are my worst enemy if I want to drink ayahuasca.

..good point thanks jamie..i should have mentioned that..yeah, avoid spices for sure..a lot of active amines can be found there..

i guess i more reduce my diet to as simple as possible rather than have a huge list..

 

[nen888]

...though here's a very good list, from Ayahuasca.com

Foods to avoid
Basically foods that are aged, preserved, dried, fermented, pickled, cured (meats), rancid, old, outdated, overripe, or even slightly spoiled.
The following foods are recommended to be avoided with MAOIs:
Meat that is not fresh, especially unfresh liver (fresh meat and fresh liver are safe)
Smoked, fermented, pickled (herring) and otherwise aged or dried fish, lox; any fish that is not fresh
Sausage, bologna, pepperoni, salami, corned beef
Aged cheeses (cottage cheese and cream cheese are safe)
Protein extracts
Liquid and powdered protein dietary supplements
Brewer’s yeast, yeast vitamin supplements, or yeast extracts
Fermented tofu, fermented bean curd, fermented soybean paste, soy sauce
Canned soups, or soups made with protein extracts or bouillon
Miso soup (contains fermented bean curd)
Shrimp paste
Sauerkraut
Fruits that are bruised or even slightly overripe, especially bananas and apples; raisins and other dried fruits, fig newtons, etc (banana peels also should be avoided — as though you’d eat them anyway)
Avocados, if ripe or overripe (slightly underripe avocados are fine in moderation). Guacamole should be avoided.
Red wine, especially Chianti; sherry, vermouth, champagne, brandy; beers and ales, including nonalcoholic; whiskey and liqueurs such as Drambuie and Chartreuse
Dairy products that are close to the expiration date or that have been unrefrigerated (fresh yogurt is safe)
Aspartame (Nutrasweet)
Fava beans, especially if overripe
Peanuts – in large quantities
Raspberries – in large quantities
Spinach, New Zealand prickly or hot weather – in large quantities
Chocolate – in large quantities
Caffeine in large quantities (note: in a few rare individuals, there may be a severe interaction with even small amounts of caffeine)

How long do they need to be avoided?
24 hours before and after drinking Ayahuasca should be sufficient.

Drugs and Medications
A list of meds to be careful of with MAOIs:
other MAOIs
SSRI’s (any selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor)
amphetamines (meth-, dex-, amphetamine)
antihypertensives (high blood pressure medicine)
appetite suppressants (diet pills)
medicine for asthma, bronchitis, or other breathing problems
antihistamines, medicines for colds, sinus problems, hay fever, or allergies (Actifed DM, Benadryl, Benylin, Chlor-Trimeton, Compoz, etc.)
CNS (central nervous system) depressants
antipsychotics
alcohol

Some specific drugs that should not be combined with MAOIs:
Actifed
Amantadine hydrochloride (Symmetrel)
Amoxapine (Asendin)
Benadryl
Benylin
Bupropion (Wellbutrin)
Buspirone (BuSpar)
Carbamazepine (Tegretol, Epitol)
Chlor-Trimeton
Clomipramine (Anafranil)
Cocaine
Cyclobenzaprine (Flexeril)
Cyclizine (Marezine)
Desipramine (Pertofrane)
Dextromethorphan (DXM)
Disopyramide (Norpace)
Doxepin (Sinequan)
Ephedrine
Flavoxate Hydrochloride (Urispas)
Fluoxetine (Prozac)
Imipramine (Tofranil)
Isocarboxazid (Marplan)
Levodopa (Dopar, Larodopa)
Loratadine (Claritin)
Maprotiline (Ludiomil)
Meperidine (Demerol)
Methylphenidate (Ritalin)
Nortriptyline (Aventyl)
Oxybutynin chloride (Ditropan)
Orphenadrine (Norflex)
Parnate
Paroxetine (Paxil)
Phenergen
Phenelzine (Nardil)
Procainamide (Pronestyl)
Protriptyline (Vivactil)
Pseudoephedrine
Quinidine (Quinidex)
Salbutemol
Salmeterol
Selegiline (Eldepryl)
Sertraline (Zoloft)
Tegretol
Temaril
Tranylcypromine (Parnate)
Tricyclic antidepressants (Amitriptyline, Elavil)
Trimipramine (Surmontil)
Yohimbine

Also avoid the following herbs:
St. Johns Wort
Kava
Ephedra
Ginseng
Yohimbe
Sinicuichi

Using Tricyclic antidepressants within two weeks of taking MAOIs may cause serious side effects including sudden fever, extremely high blood pressure, convulsions, and death.
Using Fluoxetine (Prozac) within five weeks of taking MAOIs may cause high fever, rigidity, high blood pressure, mental changes, confusion and hypomania.
Using Meperidine (Demerol) with pharmaceutical MAOIs has resulted in deaths from a single dose.
Using cocaine with MAOIs may cause a severe increase in blood pressure, increasing the chances for stroke and cerebral hemorrhage and making it possible to overdose on a relatively small amount of cocaine. (A fatality has been recorded involving combining Peganum harmala and cocaine.)
Using Bupropion (Wellbutrin) within two weeks of taking MAOIs may cause serious side effects such as seizures.
Using Buspirone (Buspar) with MAOIs may cause high blood pressure.
Using Carbamazepine (Tegretol) with MAOIs may increase seizures.
Using CNS depressants with MAOIs may increase the depressant effects.
Using Dextromethorphan with MAOIs may cause excitement, high blood pressure, and fever, or brief episodes of psychosis.
Using Tryptophan with MAOIs may cause disorientation, confusion, amnesia, delirium agitation, hypomanic signs, shivering.
Using alcohol with MAOIs may cause side effects like angina (chest pain) or headaches. The headache may mask or be mistaken for hypertensive crisis caused by MAOI interaction.
Using Kava with MAOIs may result in hypotensive crisis (severe blood pressure drop).
Using Temaril with MAOIs may increase chance of side effects.
Special note to diabetics: MAOIs may change the amount of insulin or oral antidiabetic medication that you need.

 

[jamie]

your making me nostalgic. I have not worked with heavy vine or rue brews in a long time..maybe once in the last year. I have not even been drinking ayahuasca as often. Minxx and I only have one day off at same time now too so it has been drinking brews with minimal harmalas or snuffing or sometimes I just smoke because otherwise we are stuck to the bed all day long and we like to be able to go sit on the beach later or w/e. It can be hard to dedicate the time to those kinds of brews.

Im going to make a strong batch this week.

 

[nen888]

^..that's the spirit jamie...!:d

yeah, it's like 'back in the day'..
.

 

[nen888]

..don't have time to make a list of everything you could eat..

i could suggest green vegetables (broccoli, bok choy etc), root vegetables (beetroot, carrots etc),
stone fruit (in moderation), citrus fruit..
for carbs: rice, quinoa, potatoes, yeast-free bread, corn (less sweet better)
for protein: white fish or tofu (though avoid on the day), broccoli also high in protein
for fats: olive oil, sunflower oil, mono-unsaturates

.

 

[General Gypsy]

Nen, sorry was not asking you to list all the foods one could eat, I was basically asking preference. What, when preparing, do people choose to eat.

I am more than capable of coming up with a diet, but I am curious as to what others gravitate towards when faced with the "no-list".

Cheers.

 

[adam]

Are there any differences in dietary restrictions/regimens that need to be noted when using high dose rue brew as opposed to caapi brew?

 

[nen888]

Are there any differences in dietary restrictions/regimens that need to be noted when using high dose rue brew as opposed to caapi brew?

..not that i'm specifically aware of, although i think p. harmala is a little more demanding at high dose on the diet than caapi..perhaps due to the additional alkaloids (peganine) ..

 

[adam]

What are thoughts on the sex issue? I can understand it but it hasn't been something I have taken seriously. Incidentally my most profound aya session occurred after a couple weeks of no sexual activity, but this could have just been coincidence. For people who practice sexual preservation prior to drinking do you experience noticeable effects related to it, and can you elaborate on them?

 

[endlessness]

I've said it a few times but since this is the propper place for it, I'll say it again.. I think the whole diet thing is often exagerated, and information is confusing and contradictory.

Often the exageration has come from misunderstanding, people ignore that harmalas are not typical MAOIs and therefore do not have much interaction with tyramine. The list quoted by nen is a typical example of a strict MAOI diet that is mostly related to pharmaceutical MAOIs which are non-reversible, different than harmalas.

Then the other type of diet people follow is the traditional indigenous one (which is anyways varied and not something that all indigenous agree on). It does not have anything to do with tyramine (for example they say no salt no sugar, but this has nothing to do with tyramine or other amines since neither of those substances contain it). I have a certain theory, that the whole no-sugar no-salt rules that some indigenous groups follow has a historical reason. When indigenous started contacting white people, things such as refined salt and sugar appeared in their diet which wasn't there before. This meant there was probably an excess of those substances in their diet. And what does ayahuasca often teach people? IMO one of the lessons is 'be healthy, avoid excess and unhealthy habits'. So probably some indigenous people started taking ayahuasca and noticing that the excess refined salt and sugar was not doing them good, so they decided to take it off their diet when taking ayahuasca. Does that mean that salt and sugar are bad or spiritually damaging? Personally I dont think so, I think it's just because people often take them in excess and therefore it's a good opportunity to take a break from them when taking ayahuasca.

See, using this example above, I think the overal message isn't 'eat same as always during normal life, and make a diet when taking ayahuasca', but rather 'change your eating habbits and become healthier ALWAYS, regardless of ayahuasca, and then you won't have to worry about it once you do take ayahuasca'.

Another example of why I don't think people have to follow blindly the diets? In one example of a nexian that went to the amazon (I think it was lysergify but can't remember), he mentioned his shaman told him the diet to follow, and amongst the type of things he could eat was normal refined flour pasta (as long as no salt added). See, to me that's not what ayahuasca would tell me.. I avoid refined pasta, I like to chose only whole-wheat things... IMO it would be much better to just not eat pasta, or if so, eat small amounts of whole-wheat pasta even if with a bit of salt, than eating no-salt refined pasta.

One more aspect about indigenous diet: There is no consensus. Culturally, there was a lot of direct and indirect interaction between tribes so there are some things that are quite common. But take another rule, no alcohol. See, some people would say absolutely no alcohol, but there are indigenous people that specifically take alcoholic fermented drinks together with ayahuasca, such as the Shuar/Jivaro (which seem to also not have any no-sex rules).

I have personally experimented with ayahuasca and a lot of different diets. I feel that fasting is negative because it makes me more tired and can be painful on the stomach. As for choices of food, I have tested a lot of things that supposedly some people say you shouldn't (cheese, avocado, salt, sugar, soy products, etc) and never felt anything wrong with it, didn't lead me to purge more or feel the experience was less positive in any way, even in high doses. But I def wouldn`t recommend going overboard with anything

My own rule, appart from eating healthy every day and not just when taking ayahuasca, is: Just have good sense and eat generally light (as with any psychedelic, mushrooms too for example). I like to eat a couple of hours before ingestion, and I generally eat something like steam-boiled vegetables, quinoa, and/or fruits of any kind. I also love having some açaí smoothie in the freezer or some watermellon juice in the fridge for the comedown (or if I want during the experience too), because at times I feel the stomach needs something but nothing, even water, goes in well, and those two juices/smoothies seem to be accepted very easily by the body.

I don't think it will hurt you if you follow a specific diet, but I think often these confusing and contradictory diets create more stress and worry in people than actually helping them, so that's why I say, eat light and you should be fine. Or experiment with different diets and let us know how it worked out in comparison

Oh and, as for sex.. Makes no difference IME. I've had sex right before sessions and had extremely lucid blissful learning experiences, I've had no sex for weeks and had "bad" experiences, and the opposite for both too...

 

[adam]

I guess it makes sense like how boxers won't have sex for weeks before a big fight.

 

[endlessness]

What if there's no ejaculation?

 

[SpaceSeek]

This thread is deeply interesting to me. I aspire to live on a "dieta" once I am on my own terms.

Just from eliminating spices and heavy meats before my first Caapi experience. I noticed a lightness in mind, body, and spirit. More positivity and more "flow".

More aya seems like a place to go for more thorough exploration/healing.

Thanks Nen.

 

[nen888]

..the whole point of diet i personally gave to me is to have a more insightful and less nauseous time..
it's not an 'indigenous' diet, but one worked out through experimentation..of course individuals vary, but when people have followed my recommendation they've generally been glad they did..

endlessness wrote:

The list quoted by nen is a typical example of a strict MAOI diet that is mostly related to pharmaceutical MAOIs which are non-reversible, different than harmalas.

i think Ayahuasca.com are a sensible harm-reduction group..the main difference between non-reversible vs reversible MAOIs is the duration of inhibition..but, while there can be selection for MAO-A or B, MAO inhibition is still MAO inhibition..it is not a good idea to have various amines in the system, and some food residues can remain the the gut for days, or weeks..

My own rule, appart from eating healthy every day and not just when taking ayahuasca, is: Just have good sense and eat generally light

..my personal diet is mostly just that..sugar, fried food, excesses of fermented things are not really a healthy diet..the other things on my list (e.g. lentils) are to do with potentially toxic amines..

I don't think it will hurt you if you follow a specific diet, but I think often these confusing and contradictory diets create more stress and worry in people than actually helping them

..that kind of MAOI diet Ayahuasca.com gave is generally agreed on by quite a few experienced non-indigenous ayahuasca 'practitioners' i've met..it's safe and not such a big hassle..i don't see what the stress is..?
i mean..sure, people can take everything i'm suggesting with a grain of salt (pun intended) if they like..
but i would encourage more controlled experimentation of this before dismissing it..

as more people are experimenting with ayahuasca these days i think better safe than sorry..

as for sex (which i didn't specify), that, IMO & from discussion on this topic over the years, is to do with not getting too caught up in someone else's energy field (entangled)..and being present more in one's own field..ejaculation is irrelevant..
.

 

[jamie]

Here is what Peter Gorman has to say about it..

One More on the Ayahuasca Dieta, then I'll Shut Up

I posted my previous post on a board I occasionally visit, and someone came back with the question of: If what I said about ayahuasca dietas...

thegormanblog.blogspot.ca

Another Person Asked Me About Dietas with Ayahuasca

So another person asked me about dietas and ayahuasca--you know, what's proscribed in order to get to the proper state to drink the sacred m...

thegormanblog.blogspot.ca

 

[cosmic butterfly]

Here is what Peter Gorman has to say about it..

One More on the Ayahuasca Dieta, then I'll Shut Up

I posted my previous post on a board I occasionally visit, and someone came back with the question of: If what I said about ayahuasca dietas...

thegormanblog.blogspot.ca

Another Person Asked Me About Dietas with Ayahuasca

those r veryy interesting arguments on this n they were taken from this thread: how important is the spiritual dieta really? - Ayahuasca Forums which discusses all about this exact subject

I believe much to be valued in dieta, but about its origins I agree with a lot of what endlessness n peter said. \I also think when these new foods were introduced did the restrictions come into place n when it comes down to it the dieta imo is mostly about being healthy n helping purify the body. Personally I usually just eat during dieting vegetables, fruits, eggs, breads, nuts,water, sometimes just fast, n my everyday diet has gone 360 degrees since i started working with aya as she helped wake me up to its importance. Regarding the sexual restrictions noticed the longer I can abstain the more energy is available during ceremony n I cant deny that everytime ive undergone dieta ive noticed becoming extremely sensitive, and lightness. I think this is a good thing as it allows better communication with the plants by allowing them to go deeper n helps the spirit to sort of roam free by loosening ties to the body. When the body suffers the spirit flowers and this is prevalent in many cultures n their practices around the world... But don’t think there should be any set of rules though, just as diet varies from tribe to tribe, it should from person to person based on what find works best for individual

 

[jamie]

For me personally I have tried these diets and there is not any difference. I have done some pretty intense diets that go beyond what is outlined by some people and I will still get sick and vomit if I drink enough.

Also, I get sick(more sick usually) when I take mushrooms now than when I drink ayahuasca usually. I don't get the same lingering nausea that I get after a large dose of ayahuasca but I get nausea with mushrooms and puke every time..and I puke with cacti also..faster than I do with ayahuasca.

It seems to me to be more like just my bodies response to the alkaloids.

I don't see any logical reason for some sea salt to make a difference..or some fruit sugar. I don't eat any refined sugars ever anyway. I drank yesterday and had a good dose of rue and puked and ate some aged raw cheese after the experience and never got any nausea, went to the beach and skimboarded and swam around then went to work for a couple hours at night..I was fine..but if I drink some coffee, eat chocolate etc before I will be too stimulated during the peak..and if I eat spices my stomache churns the whole time..but the same exact thing happens if I eat spices before mushrooms, or cacti..so again I am not really convinced it is from the harmalas at all. I don't so well with too many spices just on a normal day already.

Peter Gorman is pretty much one of the fathers of the western ayahuasca scene, with more jungle experience than pretty much anyone I would think..so his opinion on the reality of the diets in the jungle is at least valuable for me.