The Controversial "Ayahuasca Diet"

[RhythmSpring]

The ayahuasa diet isn't necessarily to make it safer or avoid a bad trip, it is to help facilitate the cleansing process.

Aside from the obvious reasons to avoid alcohol, coffee, and other mind-altering substances, the foods... there are other foods, such as red meat and other dense or slowly-digesting foods that are avoided.

There are certain foods that induce catabolism/cleansing -- breaking down stuff, toxin elimination, etc. These are the lighter, antioxidant-rich foods like vegetables and fruits.

And there are certain foods that induce anabolism/building -- proteins such as cheeses and meats that tell the body to build/repair itself.

When you take a purgative as strong as Ayahuasca or Syrian Rue, it induces a super-cleansing state--which is why you can feel so sick on it. The plant itself isn't making you sick; it's all the stuff that the plant is bringing out of you that is making you sick.

So, while you are in this delicate process of getting rid of stuff, it behooves you to facilitate this process by giving your body the foods it needs to help break down and flush things out. However, if you introduce foods that induce *ana*bolism, then you are telling your body to rebuild itself using what's floating around in the system--and *that*, if you have been drinking ayahuasca, will be a bunch of stuff that you should intend to get rid of.

And that could make you feel even sicker. Or at least just interfere with the process. Hence this is why some people feel extra sick if they eat meat or cheese during or after Ayahuasca/harmala-containing plants. The people who will get sick from this are the people who have some serious stuff to get rid of; the people for whom this isn't really a problem are more or less healthy. Does this ring true to you?

The shipibo shaman I worked with in Peru said, "Ayahuasca nos ayuda; y ayudamos a Ayahuasca." (Ayahuasca helps us, and we must help Ayahuasca." His wife translated this to mean that we must help Ayahuasca help us. Not fight the process, but help it along.

~~~

I also think that if nuts and seeds were present in the Amazonian diet (as much as they are in the American diet), they would also be on their "out list." They seem to slow down/gunk up the digestive system, especially if it's a nut butter. But that's a sidenote.

 

[endlessness]

I don't believe dietas. I think dietas are completely arbitrary, and what one culture says should be abstained, others will gladly incorporate in their diets (e.g. alcohol used by the Shuar with ayahuasca). Eating light and healthy is a good enough recommendation IMO regarding diet before psychedelics.

I dont think there is anything inherently spiritually bad or physically toxic in the food avoided by some dietas, except of course if people eat too much of *anything* in the first place, then yes they should probably avoid that.

I expanded on my thoughts here.

 

[Jees]

Check out also this thread about diet:

Ayahuasca question: need quick advice - Open Discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

It is said (there you have it :lol: ) that abstaining from salt and sugar can better visual performance.

There was a poll in another forum with the question: "Did you encounter effects of not following the diet etc etc....." and like 100 people polled, and 2/3 said yes, so 1/3rd had never had any effects not following the diet. But then this 2/3rd that had effects, ranged from a tiny bit till heavy. The worst case I read of was like someone who could not touch a single raisin the day after ceremony (leading to heavy and prolonged headache).
So where are you in that envelope? Who will tell.

But then again, diet as part of set + setting is another matter than the medical part.

Anyway, not being med-sensitive to negative effects, I always cherish an empty stomach doing whatever ceremony, it's just so much more comfortable + faster transit of the components into the bowels.

 

[RhythmSpring]

I don't believe dietas. I think dietas are completely arbitrary, and what one culture says should be abstained, others will gladly incorporate in their diets (e.g. alcohol used by the Shuar with ayahuasca). Eating light and healthy is a good enough recommendation IMO regarding diet before psychedelics.

I dont think there is anything inherently spiritually bad or physically toxic in the food avoided by some dietas, except of course if people eat too much of *anything* in the first place, then yes they should probably avoid that.

I expanded on my thoughts here.

To be honest, this seemed like a canned answer. How closely did you read what I wrote? I didn't say any foods were spiritually bad or physically toxic. You didn't really respond to my post; you just repeated your opinion about dietas in a thread about dietas. Sorry, I don't mean to disrespect.

 

[Jees]

I was also partly on the contra-indicated-food-foot, but that happens spontaneously when one kicks the diet-sickness pedal.

RhythmSpring I find your explanation of sickness not wrong but somewhat descriptive. In an attempt to elucidate I see (so far) 2 reasons:

1) simple mechanically pressure inside the stomach, only releasable by opening of the pylorussfincter toward the small intestine (indicated by a rumble sound in the region of the solar plexus), or the only other exit, back out over top vomiting. Once the pressure is less due one (or both) releases, the sickness-feeling is immediately tempered;

2) not being in tune with the vibe the plant offers on the body. On many occasions, sickness feeling went 100% completely away in a snap of a second on the moment my trance shifts toward a "higher gear". Sauntering (or just being unable) to follow the plants pace looks like being stretched between two realms, causing a load of nausea or sickness. Like the plant forcing the body into another state, but then the individuals awareness must shift along, if not --> sickness feeling.

I'm not arguing, just offering my view, perhaps saying same thing in another package, especially the second argument fits into "Ayahuasca nos ayuda; y ayudamos a Ayahuasca." , but it is clearly not restricted to aya.

...sick...; the people for whom this isn't really a problem are more or less healthy. Does this ring true to you?...

I've seen healthy people (intentional & food wise) being sick from begin to end of ceremony, I suppose they just failed on argument 2)
I dunno, just guessing here...

 

[endlessness]

You're right, excuse me for that.

Let me elaborate a bit on what you said.

I think you are speaking too much in absolutes and not making clear what are hypothesis, what are facts. For example:

"When you take a purgative as strong as Ayahuasca or Syrian Rue, it induces a super-cleansing state--which is why you can feel so sick on it. The plant itself isn't making you sick; it's all the stuff that the plant is bringing out of you that is making you sick. "

<- Or maybe you get sick from serotonin signalling in the guts and it has nothing to do with cleaning. Or maybe its the body responding to an alkaloid-rich decoction thinking its a poison and wanting to purge it out. Or maybe a mix of all of those options, who knows?

or

And that could make you feel even sicker. Or at least just interfere with the process. Hence this is why some people feel extra sick if they eat meat or cheese during or after Ayahuasca/harmala-containing plants. The people who will get sick from this are the people who have some serious stuff to get rid of; the people for whom this isn't really a problem are more or less healthy. Does this ring true to you?

<- again, how do you know why people get nausea/vomit in the first place? I've eaten and witnessed people eating cheese before and after ayahuasca trips and not having any issue at all. I've also have gotten very sick even following strict diets (and when my daily life is very healthy so I shouldnt have much to 'get rid of').

I find the whole nausea thing to not be as clear cut as that. Sometimes it does feel like there is a cleaning happening that is related with one's eating habits, but very often also, it seems very unrelated.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

While consuming an MAOI it is very important to avoid certain foods, such as some wines and cheese, Tyramine is an amino acid which is found in various foods, consuming tyramine while on an MAOI can cause a hypertensive crisis.

So in this case diet really is important when consuming ayahuasca or ayahuasca analogues, I know that avoiding certain foods and medications while taking an MAOI is common sense, I bring it up only because I don't believe that I saw it mentioned above.

-EG

 

[endlessness]

While consuming an MAOI it is very important to avoid certain foods, such as some wines and cheese, Tyramine is an amino acid which is found in various foods, consuming tyramine while on an MAOI can cause a hypertensive crisis.

So in this case diet really is important when consuming ayahuasca or ayahuasca analogues, I know that avoiding certain foods and medications while taking an MAOI is common sense, I bring it up only because I don't believe that I saw it mentioned above.

-EG

That isn't really true though, regarding tyramine. Harmalas are reversible MAO-A inhibitors while tyramine is metabolized also by MAO-B (plus tyramine can also displace MAO-A inhibitors), so interaction is minimal. This was mentioned in the link I posted above and also in our FAQ.

The only real danger is the interaction with pharmaceuticals/drugs, specially stimulants and anti-depressants.

 

[jamie]

"When you take a purgative as strong as Ayahuasca or Syrian Rue, it induces a super-cleansing state--which is why you can feel so sick on it. The plant itself isn't making you sick; it's all the stuff that the plant is bringing out of you that is making you sick"

Pretty sure it's harmine that makes you sick. Rue and vine are emetic herbs. This action is well understood in herbalism.

The tyramine hypertensive crisis is not an issue. I have eaten high tyramine foods while peaking on ayahuasca.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Avoid the combination of high-tyramine foods and MAOIs

A low-tyramine diet is important for anyone taking MAOIs.

www.mayoclinic.org

Sorry if what I said was inaccurate, I obtained my info from the link above

I'm aware that when they talk about the MAOI diet it's for people taking pharmaceuticals that can inhibit every bit of mono amine oxidase in the body for up to a month, just thought it would not hurt to avoid foods indicated by the MAOI diet when taking an MAOI.

-EG.

 

[Infundibulum]

Also, tyramine is not an amino acid, contrary to what mayo clinic says.

 

[jamie]

Avoid the combination of high-tyramine foods and MAOIs

A low-tyramine diet is important for anyone taking MAOIs.

www.mayoclinic.org

Sorry if what I said was inaccurate, I obtained my info from the link above

I'm aware that when they talk about the MAOI diet it's for people taking pharmaceuticals that can inhibit every bit of mono amine oxidase in the body for up to a month, just thought it would not hurt to avoid foods indicated by the MAOI diet when taking an MAOI.

-EG.

Well...that's not entirely correct either. The diet is for inhibition of MAO-B specifically...it does not mean all MAO in the body has to be inhibited for a tyramine free diet to be necessary...just that MAO-B has to be inhibited.

 

[RhythmSpring]

I just wish this endless debate would come to an end.

Maybe it's as simple as the fact that everyone's body is different, and some people have bad reactions with combining certain foods with RIMAs, and other people don't.

How bout instead of arguing whether or not it's one way or another for *everybody*, we recognize that it's variable and people react differently. Okay?

 

[endlessness]

I don't understand it. You started the thread on this subject, and now you want the 'debate to end' ?

It's important to get differing views and that people contribute with scientific information and personal experiences, so we all learn. Otherwise what's the point of posting at all?

 

[RhythmSpring]

Sorry, I just had the realization now. I'm allowed to change my mind slightly, am I? To be clear, I'm not telling you guys to shut up. I'm trying to find something we can all agree on.

I'm saying we should stop debating on what is true for *everyone*. Because it's clearly different depending on the person. I'm not saying we should stop sharing information or exploring the possible mechanisms.

 

[endlessness]

Agreed

I do think there are statistical patterns though, and safe assumptions we can make, for example that a person wont die nor have serious complications if they eat cheese after drinking ayahuasca

 

[The Traveler]

I do think there are statistical patterns though, and safe assumptions we can make, for example that a person wont die nor have serious complications if they eat cheese after drinking ayahuasca

I think the proper phrase is:

If a person gets complications from eating cheese after drinking ayahuasca, it it unlikely that the harmala/thyramine interaction will be the cause.




Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[endlessness]

Good change

 

[nen888]

..being quite familiar with the controversy i think RhythmSpring makes some good points..

..i think, given the increasing exposure to ayahuasca and it's analogues (which may differ also), and given that this i s a major 'folkloric' and ethnographic issue, that proper scientific control tests should be done..

i find the whole red herring in this 'controversy' is Tyramine..
i would agree it is not an issue with harmine and similar RMAOIs..but i think there are possible issues with other kinds of amino acids, as i mentioned in that other thread..also, such effects may become apparent above a certain threshold of percentage of MAO inhibition..dosage dependant, it isn't simply 'on/off', but a rising scale of effects..
and some people are more sensitive in dosage scale to the MAIOs..

the anecdotal evidence leans both ways in this issue..but first i think we need to take tyramaine out of the equation..that's an oversimplification..

it would make sense, according to theory, that certain amino acids will be rendered more toxic when directly absorbed due to a higher % of inhibition..also that certain amino acids, and/or possibly other compounds, can produce mental and physical changes, increasingly, beyond a level of system MAO inhibition..

i believe certain things can make a difference, be it in simply in 'mental' terms, or also physical (e.g. vomiting, Paresthesia)

i was aware years ago of very limited experiments by a handful researchers deliberately carefully eating certain things whilst ingesting 'ayahuasca', to see what happened..
this should be extended to a formal control study with a reasonable sample..

good as anecdotal reports on the issue are, i think at least some kind of control and statistically meaningful picture on the issue is needed..MAO inhibition is a more complex picture than older psych based MAO treatments suggest..they affect a range of endogenous and alien compounds..

my sense suggests that when you vomit it's because it thinks something is toxic in the gut.and this would not simply or always be confined to harmine, or tryptamines..personally i think the body readily absorbs the latter, and only begins to think of the former as a toxin when it's increasing MAO-I % to potentially toxic levels..the potential toxicity also being other things..
if nothing affects you, i say good..but i think it also good to go beyond the random anecdotal level with this..

also that i think the relationship between diet, metabolism, and psychological states has been often and long overlooked, especially in pyschology..so the issue isn't simply about purging either..or hypertensive crisis

diet, in general, is a good topic
..and yes probably optimally varies in different systems..and has subjective and objective bias..

 

[RhythmSpring]

... confined to harmine, or tryptamines..personally i think the body readily absorbs the latter, and only begins to think of the former as a toxin when it's increasing MAO % to potentially toxic levels..the potential toxicity also being other things..

Do you have evidence that RMAOIs such as Syrian Rue are actually, physically toxic? I'm doubtful.

The paradigm that Ayahuasceros and Peyote shamans alike subscribe to is that it isn't the medicine itself that makes you feel sick; it's what the medicine unearths in you that makes you feel sick. This resonates strongly with me. These substances expand consciousness. And so our awareness expands into the parts of ourselves we've been neglecting over the years, and that's some nasty stuff.

You know how people feel better after they vomit in a psychedelic experience? That isn't because they vomited the psychedelic, which was somehow toxic. It's because they vomited what the psychedelic unearthed in them. Think about how people vomit >12 hours into an Iboga session, and then feel so much better. The medicine was absorbed long ago--they're not getting rid of that...

So please, stop thinking about vomiting as purely a mechanism to expel something toxic that was recently ingested. It could be a mechanism to expel something toxic that has been building up for a much longer time--and is only now being released/loosened back into the digestive system.

It's called cleansing.