The Science of Harmala Dosage

[The Hermit]

I'm very confused around this.

I must say, vine is my first love, but I've recently started working with rue a little more, and have been taking a small daily dose (around 1g, as a tea), which is just starting to reveal its rewards.

So this is the part I can't figure out. If I take some low averages, say 1% for vine, 3% for rue (my yellow vine extractions are usually around 1.2%), the maths isn't really adding up.

I can drink 3 - 5g of rue for an analogue experience. So ballpark 90 - 150mg harmala alks. My last rue + mimosa experience was 4g rue, 7g mimosa (whoa on the mimosa next time!), very overwhelming for me spice-wise.

The recommended Caapi dose would be 50g low, pushing up anywhere past 100g according to comfort levels. So, 500 - 1000mg harmala alks. My last caapi + mimosa exp was 75g Caapi, around 5g mimosa (beautiful balance).

How do you figure this massive discrepancy in dose? Is it the pinch of harmaline in rue? This comes up from time to time, and there doesn't see to be a conclusive answer, but a high (5g) dose of good rue (even at 5%) would give you 250mg, half of a low vine dose.

Lords, even typing this confuses me :surprised

Apologies if this is an old or recurring question, or if nobody cares

 

[gibran2]

Interesting questions.

First, I’d say that alkaloid content varies by more than you’ve indicated: I’ve extracted caapi with yields as low as 0.3% and as high as 3%. I’ve extracted rue with a 7% alkaloid yield. Some caapi contains little to no beta-carbolines.

There have been threads/posts questioning the difference in effects between caapi brew and extracted caapi alkaloids from the same batch of caapi. It seems that more brew must be consumed than you would expect given the amount of beta-carbolines it contains.

There has been speculation about this, but I don’t think anyone has a definitive science-based answer.

 

[Jees]

Hermit, your numbers fit exactly my experience as well. With caapi extract then the very bare minimum is 500mg freebase,
> 500 is better. While 200 rueHCL is more than bare minimum needed.

Rue is mainly Harmaline and seems a more powerful maoi than the caapi's main Harmine.
Different forms of ingestion and dosages

HARMALINE. *
Oral: 100-150mg
Sublingual (for vaporized dmt potentiation): 15-30mg

HARMINE *
Oral: 150-250mg

On top of that: the harmine in caapi extract has to share equal amount with THH (Various Alkaloid Profiles in Decoctions of Banisteriopsis Caapi[dagger] J C Callaway), and THH is actually a very poor maoi, it is reuptake inhibitor more than a mao inhibitor.

I suppose rue extract is more target-pure because the manske really pin points efficiently, where nobody ever thinks about doing a manske on caapi extract in order not to loose the THH. Caapi extract minus [Harmine + THH] will still make up for a lot of the weight, I too am curious what it is. One thing for sure: no real maoi beast.

 

[Jees]

What confuses me:
it is generally accepted that harmaline is stronger maoi than harmine.
Is it possible to obtain a proving source for this statement?

In attached pdf file you find on page 4 of 7 the attached picture, which shows a more powerful harmine than harmaline. :shock:
What could have lead to this reverse effect?

 

[The Hermit]

Thanks guys.

@gibran2 - very true that all contents can vary more, the figures I used were based slightly lower than the plant material I've been brewing and extracting from recently (for the vine), and slightly high for the rue, so they are at least close to accurate in this example for discussion purposes. I prefer to have at least run a small extraction before working with a batch of plant so I know the ballpark I'm working with.

So it seems that the harmaline appears to be the one culprit bolstering rue, with the THH in Caapi watering down its strength? I feel like I need to work with some extracts side by side and draw comparisons.

But thanks to both of you, that feels a little closer to sense

 

[gibran2]

If you haven’t done so already, I suggest you take a look at the caapi analysis thread. Lots of good information there.

One of the things you’ll notice is that THH makes up a fairly small percentage of caapi alkaloids – usually 0% - 5%. So I don’t think THH accounts for observed differences.

 

[Jees]

...One of the things you’ll notice is that THH makes up a fairly small percentage of caapi alkaloids – usually 0% - 5%. So I don’t think THH accounts for observed differences.

This 0-5% to 50% THH in caapi products keep hunting us. Is it the jungle brewing style versus the methods that were used in the analysis thread?
My extracts are made most similar to the jungle style, with long acid boils, so I presume the THH in my extract will also tend in that direction: more THH. In the analysis thread it looks more like what's-in-the-wood rather than whats-in-the-brew. In the thread: the stated AB+NaOH precip does not say how that acid treatment really looked like.

 

[tregar]

Callaway, James C. (June 2005). "Various alkaloid profiles in decoctions of Banisteriopsis caapi" (PDF). Journal of Psychoactive Drugs 37 (2): 151–5. doi:10.1080/02791072.2005.10399796. ISSN 0279-1072. PMID 16149328. Retrieved 2012-08-10.

http://catbull.com/alamut/Bibliothek/various%20alkaloid%20profiles%20in%20aya%20decoction.pdf

Looking at the chart on page 2, many of the brews from the Shuar Indians and UDV and even Santo Daime contain average
ratios of 1:1 harmine to thh, which is an advanced brewing technique, for example, many of the brews contained 170 to 190mg of harmine along with 170mg to 190mg of THH (some of the best entries on the chart). Even seen lab tested caapi extracts out there that are similar in their ratio profile, with no harmaline, only harmine & thh.

Just multiply the 1.83 on the chart on page 2 by 100 to get the 183mg which is in a typical 100ml brew as he references. Brews then contain 300 to 400mg of both harmine and THH combined.

From page 4 of paper "The average ratio of harmine to THH in the vegetals was consistently near 1:1 from all sources while the ratio was closer to 5:1 in a large survey of plant source material."

There is less than 1% THH in rue unfortunately. Rue contains about 1:1 ratio of harmine to harmaline, but at times depending on growing season may contain 2:1 ratio of harmine to harmaline.

Caapi is great bi-weekly, just as the UDV or Santo Daime meet twice a month.

Hermit: I like your pdf paper from the Journal of Natural Sciences. Also see: "The free base extraction of Harmaline from Penganum harmala" by Brobst, Lewis, Klett for the ratio of harmine:harmaline they found in the seeds.

 

[The Hermit]

Yeah I was under the impression that THH is found in small quantities, but that does seem up for debate. I was under the impression that the harmaline ratio in rue was also fairly diminutive, but again, that doesn't seem to be a rule.

Came across a really interesting analysis of the plant matter of Peganum Harmala, and the ratios were pretty interesting, although they don't seem to address seeds at all.

 

[Jees]

... although they don't seem to address seeds at all.

In page 5 of 9 they do:

...the harmine is the most abundant (8.514 ± 0.521 mg/g dry weight) followed by
harmalol (2.774 ± 0.164 mg/g). As for the concentration of harmaline, it is about 0.874 ± 0.016 mg/g. The total content of these major alkaloids in seeds is then approximately 1.22%...

I find all the numbers in that study staggering low, but wikipedia backs up such numbers.

For comparison the pdf that I attached in previous post:

...Harmine and harmaline accumulated in dry seeds at 4.3% and 5.6% (w/w), respectively...

That means 10% total.

So there we are :surprised

 

[Chan]

Snu Voogelbreinder makes an interesting observation regarding the seasonal variation of the alkaloid content of rue:

Alkaloids are concentrated in the seed coat of the seeds of P. harmala (Gröger 1959). Ripe whole seeds may yield 2-7% alkaloids [much lower yields were said to be obtained from green fruits – see below for some conflicting data]; roots 1.4-3.2% [3% harmine was found in roots in one test; as well as harmaline, vasicinone and deoxyvasicinone]; stem and fruits 0.8% [in summer stems contained mostly deoxyvasicinone, as well as 0.06% harmine and 0.03% harmaline]. Harmala-alkaloid content is highest in winter; the seeds contain more harmaline than harmine in winter, and this pattern reverses in summer; the roots contain more harmine than harmaline in winter, and this also reverses in summer.

[My emphasis]

 

[Auxin]

I wonder how that would translate to places where P. harmala doesnt grow in the winter.
In Tehran, Iran in January the average high is 52°F and the average low is 37°F, so presumably in most of the US and europe fall would correspond to iranian winter... so perhaps we should be keeping summer harvest and fall harvest separate?
Have any nexians explored this yet?

 

[The Hermit]

@Jees - I have to learn to read slower! :| thanks for the feedback loop :thumb_up:

Either way, it's been informative. Time for some side by side extract bioassays. I also have a distinct urge to replace 'lol' in online conversations with 'harmalol'

 

[Jees]

Have some harmallol with harmalol :lol:
Good one Hermit.

 

[BongWizard]

My advice: extract your harmaloids. That way you know exactly what you're getting. MAOIs can be intense on their own and can be problematic at high does, so I think it's best to know exactly what you have and how much of it.

Easy Caapi Vine Alkaloid Extraction Guide - DMT-Nexus Wiki

wiki.dmt-nexus.me

Phlux's Telepathine Tek - DMT-Nexus Wiki

wiki.dmt-nexus.me

 

[tregar]

Man from chan chan said:

Harmala-alkaloid content is highest in winter; the seeds contain more harmaline than harmine in winter, and this pattern reverses in summer; the roots contain more harmine than harmaline in winter, and this also reverses in summer.

Auxin said:

I wonder how that would translate to places where P. harmala doesnt grow in the winter.
In Tehran, Iran in January the average high is 52°F and the average low is 37°F, so presumably in most of the US and europe fall would correspond to iranian winter... so perhaps we should be keeping summer harvest and fall harvest separate? Have any nexians explored this yet?

Have found in dreams that this is indeed true, as the seeds that arrived here during the summer were 1:3 ratio of harmaline to harmine (3 times as much harmine as harmaline) yet the seeds that arrived during the winter in USA were 1:1 to 1.25:1.00 ratio of harmaline to harmine (pretty much near even ratios, to slightly more harmaline than harmine). What determines seasons in other countries compared with your own country is the latitude of your country vs. the latitude of the other country, near same latitude = near same season both places. Latitude = north or south direction.

 

[tregar]

sorry, strayed off topic, edited.

 

[Jees]

We've strayed a bit from OT's dosage subject

I've come to much of the same findings,
I only give my alks some more "room" during the manske:
where you have 40ml/1gr crude rue FB,
I give it 100ml/1gr crude FB. But his more room must be compensated by somewhat more salt, I cant grow neat with salt 10 - 12gr/100ml, my min threshold is 15 gr/100ml (which I use) and then first growing does start at room temp, and the rest grows in the fridge.
Yes 20gr/100 ml is overkill IMO too, and the guys working with full saturation probably go shop groceries with a Hummer :lol:

And YES grounded yield more.
If I see your yield 38gr HCL out of 2kg seed is like a 2%. Not too much but it could be seed depending.

I've not had too much trouble coming around the item of filtering/working grounded seed, I foresee making a post about it especially dedicated on working with grounded seeds.

I'd like to bump-repeat my former unanswered question (makes OT again ):

it is generally accepted that harmaline is stronger maoi than harmine.
Is it possible to obtain a proving source for this statement?

 

[tregar]

Yes, sorry to stray off subject a bit.

Jees said:

my min threshold is 15 gr/100ml

That's exactly what I've been using with great results, 15gr salt per 100ml.

Jees said:

And YES grounded yield more.

very true!

Jess said:

I only give my alks some more "room" during the manske:
where you have 40ml/1gr crude rue FB, I give it 100ml/1gr crude FB.

Yes, this is a fine tuning point, none of the teks give the exact amount of liquid to use per 1g FB, so it takes some practice working this out. I like the 100ml/1gr crude FB you use as well, will have to try that sometime.

As far as the harmaline vs harmine question, I have read from Mckenna's Invisible Landscape that harmine binds to DNA one hundred times stronger than harmaline, which doesn't answer the MAOI question however, but has implications if there are hidden messages in our junk DNA that can be accessed by harmine.